likes the dangers of the task i know promising to send the f 16. this is further igniting the war and drive it up and actually by 70 percent and more reject that. right. and also you don't want the german government to send the targets ms. system stuff. so this has to be seen like the current conflicts. and of course the debates in our country is very cheated. yes, you said there's a lot of, of a backlash against the policy of germany and ukraine. do you think this is compatible with media standards that are set environmentally and generally in, in the west. yes, that is true. we have a split here between the east and west of the driver, but the nation, the west, i'm traveling so i was a little bit more pro american still college and they are asking questions and i, and i think that nobody wants to get further involved in this conflict,

we have other morris as well. these are economic for us because we are in a deep recession for the so thoughtful in the role now. so this is not good for family and on. and this is also what people are variable agent, to my own, say, please stop any military engagement because we don't want to stop. oh, also wants economically. do you think that the broadcaster will look at this and perhaps is re think you know how the, the entire country has been looking at this conflict? and do you think they'll say face any rubber questions? yeah, but i would appreciate it if they do that, then usually we do have mechanisms in our systems for our cost is to adjust and be more of a i'm producing news and also state goes by business. but unfortunately, they are very one sided, especially since this conflict interrupted. how do you assess this alternative

option of, of, of a viable opinion, inter media? how do you think that this could usher in perhaps more and more people speaking out against the conflict? especially as you mentioned in regard to the economic repercussions that germany is facing in terms of the energy sector. yes, by the millions of people to take it to the streets every monday it is depend, demik actually, which they didn't also combine. and this understanding does depend that they was kind of cover up for the preparations to go to war against russia many millions people and drug and they see it right now. and they see it more and more clearly. and we also must say, thanks to these maintenance of people, they are asking the right questions and democracy is being su in the i'm because from the people in districts. and i support that strongly and i won't be able to peaceful drug tests. of course on the piece for the drug test,

but we have to make clear that we do not accept what the government is doing that in one day. and i must say, it's written that the board to do more in your grade is the last 5, the best. and people's sense that people sense that even though that the, the mainstream media as long reporting, it may yet also speak of magazine and the driver tv stations. um, okay, for the reporting not saying that it is difficult for us investigate and it's difficult to win more so i think the perception is there that this is going to end pretty soon problem and then of course people race for the next, then that makes to cover exactly that. well, it seems like there is somewhat of a shift ralph t niemeyer, chairman of the german opposition group for german sovereignty and constitution. thank you for your time. thanks. right. and that's all for now, but be sure to check out our t. com for all the latest breaking news and everything on the recent break summit.

thanks for joining until go far. my colleague rachel ruble will be taking over at the top of the hour, the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered on peter lavelle. nato fail due crane still again. another promise not kept. in fact, the military alliance has no intention of bringing kevin to native. this is always

been the fox ukraine, as an after thought inflicting a strategic defeat on russia as always in the plan, the process of getting the nato summit. i'm joined by my guess. yon oberg in london is director of the swedish independence, transnational foundation for peace and future research in columbus. we have missed the winston. she is a political activist, as well as host of miss the winston show on t and t radio. and here in moscow we have mike jones, he is an independent journalist. alright, prospect rolls. and the fact that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate you, i'm letting me go to you 1st. there's so much we can say about this summit that was held in bill unless it was built up, covered extensively. it was a bost. okay. but at the end of the day, the 2 most important things to take away from that. not that

a new crane made it in or didn't make it in or conditions that can all of it. that's all for now. what really matters here is it this, some, it did not discuss peace and it did not discuss security security for all young. you know, it did, and that is not in the vocabulary of nato. i studied nato's because i, i wrote a book about it last year and why it shouldn't be abolished 30 arguments. and i went, went through all the documents. there's no consent to section on pieces, defends and deterrence, what deterrence and defense and security, then it is pronouncing, who is the enemy, or who is the opponent? always a potential threat, such as china as population, say post legs is no analysis. and it's a combination of others and never self reflection. so the web piece, it's not that, and it's not a defensive a lines in any academic reason. lovely. sustainable definition of that word. yeah, well oh yeah. the,

it's primary mission. this is to stay in business. that's and stop goal is to stay in business. miss the big as actually the same questionnaire because, you know, the, we've always heard this built in birds ahead of nato. you are the rush. it has no veto. has no be what dogs apparently it does have a veto. that's why this ukraine was not invited and never will be invited into the alliance. they are fooling themselves and that there is their scribes in the media . just lie about it. go ahead in columbus. yes, i think that is absolutely correct. i don't think it's a surprise to anybody who's paying a bit of attention that ukraine has no chance whatsoever of making it into nato at this point. or at any point, i think that this is kind of a care that they're dangling in front of them on a stick. in order to continue, i think that this is as doing a science one said that about afghanistan. the goal is unless we're not a successful we're it applied then i think it applies now. and i think that the membership and anita was something that they are just kind of waving in front of ukraine in order to justify the continuation of using ukrainian bodies as cannon

fodder for this proxy war against russia. and it's initially, it's really quite amazing that the political leadership in care of goes along with it. it's, it's really extraordinary, a sacrificing their own people. i suppose. the lensky and his crowd are paid very well. compensation is very good for these people. mike, let me go to you. i mean, when we, we, they talk about allies, when all the allies agree and conditions are met. you know, when my friend, they are farther away from getting into nato than they were in 2008 when they were invited. as a potential invite and to be alive, they are farther away than they are in 2008. go ahead. absolutely the right. i'm gonna reach back to the united kingdom and ben wallace who echoed the us saying we can't have a new member in the middle of a conflict that would just import war into the lions. and it really baffles me how this was never considered before. has the lensky always worked into it because the

p a has been a catastrophic, even the photographs of the lensky just standing on his own, completely excluded from what's going on when, when we think about it, they say, when allies agree, when they've been able to agree in recent times, they've been divided over a success to stolen back divided the class. the buttons now divided over a key if and yet the headlines will read, that nato has been more united than ever. you only need to do a very quick google search on the minimum requirements for nato membership, and the us state department itself and it's archive explicitly states. there is no checklist for membership, but it does say we made it clear at a minimum there are 5 following requirements. number one, you members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity. you're absolutely right. that's not been existing in ukraine for yeah, at least what 2008 if know 2014. so no ukraine has never had any chance of being in

the nato by even the, in the us is own sort of requirements as a lease the puts it. well, you know, it's, that's a very good point because they talk about democratic norms and rules based order, which does not apply to ukraine in any sense. yeah. on, you know, one of the things that's very interesting is that they say that ukraine has to win the war to become eligible to be a member. so what they lose the war, do they get to become a member? i mean, i don't understand the logic here young. can you figure it out? i think the law duty is that if war is the only game in town, so speed in, in they taught us towns and there's not a word about these negotiation sees fire or anything else. reason level. then of course, a movie you that by pumping in weapons down, i mean, nation and political support and good works. so that today, or you probably wouldn't be able to win over russia. i think the assumption is at night. and also it's very interesting now in historical perspective,

to look at nato as being in various ways in ukraine, basically is things i think 3 months after you kind of became an independent state . yeah. awesome. everybody in the west who knew anything about security, including number of us on baset or to mosque out, including uh burners, who is now ca director. but was an investor and tons of scholars in the us. and europe have won the last 30 years. you can be, you may, you may do expansion of nato, which is against the problem is, is very clearly given to go by job. but you comp, do you crying? because that means war and now you had a couple of days before the room. you saw me, you have bite and the same thing saying basically the same word. i mean, this is a huge blunder. they should never have done what they did in 2008, which was a response to letting me po, tens, a very concerned speech in the munich security conference. so i mean, they just have totally intellectual slot. yeah. mysterious. it's really interesting

when you think about the censorship that's going on. of course, everyone knows like, for example, r t was taken off of youtube, but it is absolutely right ever since the end of the cold war, there's been a huge debate about expanding nato. but according to what one year ago in 5 months, you can't say that any more your apps, you're getting to know a lot of trouble for. i was originally banned from twitter for quoting rock obama on ukraine. i got the band for that. okay. so that it's really quite interesting is what you can there was, there's a whole literature out there and, but all of a sudden the last 16 months. oh there you know it's, it's, it's, it's for both of them to speak about is missy. this is the times we live in. i live and it won't let me, let me go to mr. here here in columbus. go ahead. i mean, yes. listen the censorship industrial complex that has been completely out of control on a number of issues. this is just one of them, and i think that it is very telling, i think any time that you're not allowed to ask questions,

you should ask all of the questions. and i think that that's something that they have been able to avoid in this country. the propaganda machine is very powerful, very strong and very effective. i think a lot of people are, are willing and able to go along with whatever line that they're selling to us on, on a host of issues. this one i think is a little bit different. i think that this one from the jump, i think a lot of people started to question it, they've managed to beat a lot of those people down through censorship. like with yourself and through other methods of, you know, kind of 51 thing people through algorithms and shadow banding and that kind of thing. but i do think a lot of people are questioning this narrative a lot more than they would have maybe in the past. i think post iraq, a lot of people are more skeptical. what needs to sort of a situations arise? and i think that that's what we're seeing now, and i hope that that continues. and we, and we continue to see people uh, push back on this uh, sort of a narrative. yeah. mike, you know, the, let's think about this here. so i would say, hypothetically, ukraine wins the war against russia, then why does it need nato ok, why does it need to join in a lot? also, if you could crane most likely will lose this work. why would nato include

a country that lost the war against russia? i mean, i, i don't, i don't understand the logic of any of this here. go ahead, mike. you know, none of it makes sense as you, as you rightly said, but if, if they were to win, well, how do they win? cuz those goal post keep changing. i think biting and his law was saying that nate, ukraine would have to retain crimea as a, as a sort of standard of, you know, restore the territorial integrity. and this has been sorting about a lot. so then if you kind doesn't succeed in restoring it's 1991 board is then it doesn't maintain his integrity. that for account will be a positive nate. so because of the conditions as i understood them was that the country had to be in control of its borders. so you, obviously, you're right, they never make sense. and let's just also remember how a president page in distress about this expansion of nato. the key concern of the russian federation, an x is an existential security risk and the west, the media loss to him. but in short order,

then we had these goals for sweden and finland to join finland, being another encroachment up to the north. and then we have this talk of ukraine and suddenly celebrated the open look how united we look, how putin has shot himself in the foot. no, you've actually justified his exact consent and you've been so so strengthened the argument that nato has broken his promise, as has been stressed it to go, which is margaret fletcher being one of them from the u. k. who also showed good chance that not one inch east was young. i mean, what is the future of nato? i'd say the brick wall with the crane and you're like, and i think we're all in agreement. you claim will never be a member of that alliance rush. it will not allow it, that's why we have the conflict there now young. and i think what they are doing now is to substitute the word minimum, which is very clear in the treaty with or not substituted. but i expand that into what they called pa. those and now i think 139500 is on all the,

you know, boss of the world. and, you know, they are thinking now planning to set up in an h will office in japan all this. and i think this is an extremely important point. what made to dollars today is not in the photos with its founding treaty. it's in that sense and the legal activity outside on that started with the bombing of yugoslavia $99.00. absolutely, absolutely. well, what it is is it is the hang on hang on, we're going to have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break,

we'll continue our discussion on the nato summit. stay with our team, the welcome back across ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the nato summit. the ok, right before we went to the break, i was talking with you on your, on your, on a roll. so keep rolling, go ahead. you know, i just said that this is from the bombing of yugoslavia 99. it has done the thing and then the lines have done things that are not in any way letter. of course, very in with the in it's treaty which is a very defensive un charlton based training. the only difference from the un job to

is but a's on to go 5 about, you know, mutual defense on each other, inside the group. i could find that as, as a piece for this after tomorrow. the fact is that it's breaking 247 its own provisions. and i would suggest that there shouldn't be established an independent international commission that looks change on lawyers and others who would look into how far can they to deviate from is a founding treaty. and what can be done about it. and if you're asking about the future, it wants to go global by means of partners, because it's running out of members in europe. and that's why we have to stop it. it simply has to be stopped by popular movement in the west. another country is that, wow, well, we'll say, we'll see how it goes. i, i don't, i think nato is days, are numbered. it's going to a separate strategic tax tropic this feed in ukraine. it's the graveyard of nato, at least, i hope so. miss the, i don't, i don't want to get to legalistic or anything like that. but you know, there's always this talking about article 5 of the,

of the nature tree. it's actually called the washington treaty. but, you know, everyone should read the article one of the treaty, nato con nato, as an organization, under its own roles cannot get involved in military complex using force. its members must use diplomacy and negotiations. nobody reads the 1st article and i'm going to agree with you all they are in complete violation of their own. and treaty go ahead, misty. indeed, yes, and i think that it's a i had to smile there as you were saying that out loud because it's a curious to me that they don't ever actually follow that to it. i hope that you're correct and that this is going to be the graveyard for nato. i think that nato has it's long overdue for it to have been abolished. and we're, as we're seeing the situation in ukraine play out, it seems as if you may be correct. i think that you, they are going to suffer a very strategic defeat here. and it is going to be very difficult for them to spend that in a positive direction for nato. and i think that that is something that they are trying to contend with. now i think that there's probably

a little bit of panic behind the scenes. they're trying to figure out how they can best, you know, wiggle around in the situation and make it, uh, you know, it and, and kind of save face. and the best way that they can, i'm not sure how they do that at this point. they are now so far involved. there's no way for them to back out without looking silly. and i think that that's something that they're continue can contending with now behind the scenes trying to figure out how they can make that play without you know, making fools of themselves with the box that play out. actually missy, i do have the, the, the wiggle room for them. i shouldn't even say it, cuz i know they'll steal it. you know what they're gonna say. let's see, i'm gonna tell you what the gonna say. anyways, opponent didn't make it to parents. we won the football though. that's exactly, that's the, you know, room temperature i q of these people. that's exactly what they're going to do with mike, you know, you know, again they were talking about with when the allies agree on the conditions when conditions are met. here we also have the g 7. yes,

they're still around now making trouble. they are talking about security guarantees as well. again, i thought that was, what did they have to do with the military, with security? i thought they weren't economic organization. okay. i mean, again, this is another fiction here to sell to people in the west, you know how to waste more money on, on a loss costs go ahead. might yeah, yeah, absolutely right. the g 7, as i understood it with these economic members and powers that came together and discussed such things. so it baffled me when even zelinski himself said, or i, if we don't get nato membership, at least we'll get some reassurance is from the g 7. but we know that everything's been a big fight and nothing but really in regards to that, all the security guarantees, it doesn't matter how you want to describe it. all these countries committing to the proxy war. and again, i'll refer back to ben wallace saying that we don't want to import war into the lions, and you have the same people of engaging in this proxy. will they just the ones that directly at them,

so that happy to attack rusher and facilitate the death of russian soldiers, but they don't want to risk their own, their own soldiers and people this g 7, an honest and is probably again, whether just gonna line up take photographs and pass each other on the back and lots about how they will invested in the right arms manufacturers. and that's, that's the economic side as far as i can tell. well it absolutely. yeah. also, well, yeah, let's talk about the issue of cluster bombs. i mean, again, rules based order and all of this nonsense they like to talk about here. that is a very dangerous escalation and russian rush. it doesn't start big, go up the escalation ladder. it usually follows that. it's gonna follow this one for sure. yeah. so it's part of modern militarism that do you see problems fairly with wanted to lean your tumor box like a habit of that means whatever you're trying to do,

you're tapestry. it's pulling down your hammering on and then finally the won't be self will come down. the idea that this whole problem can only be solved by web is i think actually we have a statement from mrs dalton back in the direction that piece comes with weapons or something. instead of, you know, the ceasefire negotiations, you n o s e media to mediation, etc, is, is just an indicative indication that this organization is outdated. maybe we don't need militarism in this world, and they certainly don't do it because they have 12 times more military expenditures and roger, what we need is corporation. what we need is not to waste money, but solve the problem to humanity as and do we, you know, reach out and accept that we're going to live in a multicultural world with different cultures, different political ideas, different interpretations of human rights, etc. i mean for the u. s. and it's friends and allies will not do that. they will lose or they've become a peri afraid that will become, you know, in the long run, some kind of developing countries in the future. well know what are 50100 years

from now? well, you're not going to long time when we see his desperation and the cost of bones as an example of it. when you need to interview the cost of bombs and you're in, you're fine. you're really, you're really losing it. yeah. well miss the with the, i'm glad the onset that because this is an act of desperation and desperate people do desperate things and i wouldn't put it past them. do do other things as well. i mean, it's all about maintaining had gemini, is what we have here is ukraine, is this the example? okay. do you think of policy makers in washington in brussels? give a hoot about ukraine. they don't at all. they want to give them as much weapon, reading that their young young men to be killed in the bad steel. the end result will be the same miss. yes, yes, a 100 percent. i'm so glad that the word respiration was used because that is exactly what this is. i think that the united states and the west has like a wounded animal, backed into a corner and you're absolutely right. or government doesn't even care about the

people of this country and i'm supposed to believe that they care about ukrainians . it is absurd on its face. and so we're happy to use them as cannon fodder. many people in a high level, high positions of power. i've said that we will fight until the last ukranian. uh well, i mean that is a, that's a, it's a very brave and bold thing for you to say from back home. but i think that the people of ukraine are going to start to find that quite despicable. i find it despicable, the idea that we are using this country and its people, as you know, a weapon against russia is really despicable. and so i think that again, i think that they're starting to lose the narrative here. i think that they're starting to lose control. and i think that this is for sure, an act of desperation. well, mr. you couldn't see it, but when you said the governments here don't care about their own people. the other guests on the program nodded their heads in. okay, and i, i, i'm agreeing with you as well. oh, mike, it's really interesting how this propaganda war there is being fought. it's interesting how we have used as a lensky. i think they were a little surprised with those mean tweet. ok. because you know, you say i've done everything you told me to do every sitting in bed, you know,

they make it down the alter. sorry, you're not the type of girl for us. okay. go ahead mike. yeah, i think he says, i have given everything i demand respect, and even zelinski was smacked by again ben wallace saying, well, ukraine should say, find you more often. subsequent to the comments, i believe that lensky released the videos saying thank you no less than 47 times in a video, it's really been well, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic this talk about yeah, fights and so the last ukrainian is, is chilling. at the very least, if i would just add in a statistic that i came across is 97 percent of those people killed by cluster munitions have been civilians. yep. these weapons are not effective on the battlefield. they are not suitable for the battle field that, that being supplied to it is desperation to keep this fight going. because remember we have the 2024 elections. i think the like subjects sullivan, victoria,

new lives and all that desperate to just keep this going to 2024 and try and get another democrat in the white house. and that's way you ukraine and ukrainian people being sacrificed for. for what us, paula, take 1st for why, for what exactly, what, what is the national interest for europe and what is the national interest for the united states? it's never explained. yeah. and i'm glad that mike brought up a bad statistic because given the nature of the regime and cab before the conflict, and now i'm talking about corruption. i really worry that these cluster bombs will be sold to various groups around the world, okay? they're not going to stay in ukraine, they're too valuable to the various forces, young as well. that's the risk that the west has taken hold of time, but it's pumping in weapons into a country that is known for corruption as it can be. i mean, you talked about the split sand, what will be the future of the lines and the cost of own thing has been

a split. and there is no human united. most opinion about that. like a lot of other issues within nato own leadership or leaders. and i think what, what, what we've made me, we shouldn't be so surprised because if you look at all the wars they, they, the u. s. has been leading or fighting the seems to be some they've all been lost or left to withdrawal. so why should we be surprised that if you would create a chaos enough k as in ukraine, you leave because you might have gotten something else you need it. the problem here is that the, we need some leadership in the western world that does not think of a war as and confrontation and sanctions on demon. i'd say sion and strengthening behavior and words as the main kind of of foreign policy. it's totally outdated. as i said, i'm, i knew was an i stated at that time 30 years ago, pulled down. they told me because it was all packed in the soviet union has disappeared. and that was the place on that for that time. i'll be alliance.

therefore, the, the original data today of the lines is only one thing and one word expansion expansion. it has nothing to bring to the world any more. it's an outdated, it may have been useful early. i don't know, but it's not useful for the future of the world that's well said, and that's all the time we have. i want to think my guess in columbus land and here in moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember prospect models the, the lake side call a magical place, a friend has to go. ice clean water is a dramatic geography. and of course, a unique echo system which is developed over the past 25 to 35000000 years. and of

course, a place like this just seconds you've come and experience at all for yourself. and learned vision. coming up on our, to international the shaping a new world order together even more countries think to join breaks. that's as 6 nations are officially invited into the blocks on the last day of the south africa summit with new members sharing the excitement over opportunities profit by the move. we highly appreciated the approval of breaks leaders for inviting the you a to, during the, against ation. that that's being part of breaks, strengthens us and does not exclude all the instances of integration. that i'd like to welcome to step taken today by breaks to expand its membership, which i believe will help made that we're going to zation more effect different