such a day when i was just because i just stole sauce for what sort of way to talk to. he just said that the united states is actually provoked. this conflict with you or do you consider success, really the main co brand or does the responsibility lie with george's entire political establishment at that time, as well as the nato countries in the united states. but the whole story that they wanted to know, chilling and they'll go at it. so it's, i guess we have said for a long time the sat gosh, really is just the full who bought into this whole story. conclusion that a man with an inflated ego that eventually turns him into a political corpse as he is responsible for it and everything that happens. it was not only he but the leadership of georgia at the time. but in political life, everything is arranged so that the final decision is made by the top in person. and he is the number one person responsible. on the georgian side, it was he who made the decision to launch the aggression or even taking into

account the roll, the west plate, and it's prob occasions. this was ultimately the decision of one person, the george and head of state. that's why you cannot take the words out of the song here and what are the fact that he is a cycle passing this a person with an unbalanced psyche who took stimulants during the conflict? oh, i don't know where he was sniffing or smoking, or what kind of ties he was chewing on. it was clear that he was not to mentally stable goals because this also affected what transpired him. but he is also responsible for the georgia leadership of that period or reshape on congress. you can go, go, go with that would be, you know, it's, it's just like i said in the hordes of term. yeah. pages can focus really is now in prison. he periodically claims that he's dying and from time to time pop out of political oblivion. mostly with some rooster phobic attacks. do you think that the

success really should be brought before an international tribunal for forest george and justice and not sable? for the make us please, it seems to me that history and the all mighty have already condemned him as severely as possible. he has become an outcast in his own homeland despite the fact that he was previously it's head of state. he was on a stupid political journey to ukraine, where he tried to serve another country. this is quite strange for the head of another stage and unacceptable in principle. but nevertheless, he tried to do it and was thrown out over there because he showed his incompetence and propensity for squabbling as ultimately under the influence of his political instructors. from the wes, from the special services he tried to re enter the territory of his native country and deservedly went to prison. he has already been condemned by everyone, but most importantly,

he has been condemned by his own people. for more on any of those stories to head over to all websites. ok. see don't. com. my name's peter scott. whenever you want to. i hope you having a great friday and i'll see you back in 30 minutes. the, [000:00:00;00] the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered on peter level, tomato fail, due crane still again, another promise not kept. in fact, the military alliance has no intention of bringing kevin to native. this is always been the fox ukraine as an after thought inflicting a strategic defeat on russia as always in the plan, the process of getting the nato summit. i'm joined by my guess yon oberg in london. he

is director of the swedish independence transnational foundation for peace and future research in columbus. we have missed the winston. she is a political activist, as well as host of the miss the winston show on t and t radio. and here in moscow we have mike jones, he is an independent journalist. all right, cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump me anytime you want. and i always appreciate you on let me go to you 1st. there's so much we can say about this summit that was held in building this. it was built up, covered extensively. it was a bost. okay. but at the end of the day, the 2 most important things to take away from that. not that have ukraine made it in or didn't make it in are conditions that can all watch it. that's all a foot. no. what really matters here is it this some, it did not discuss peace and it did not discuss security. security for all young, you know it did, and that is not in the vocabulary of nato. i studied nato's because i, i wrote

a book about it last year and why it shouldn't be abolished. 30 arguments. and i went, went through all the documents. there's no consent to all that section on pieces defense and guitar is what determines and defense and security, then it is pronouncing who is the enemy, or who is the opponent? always a potential threat, such as china as population, say, post legs. it's not analysis. and it's a combination of others and never self reflection. so the web piece is not that, and it's not a defensive a lines in any academic, reasonably sustainable definition of that word. yeah, well, oh, yeah, the, it's primary mission. this is to stay in business. that's and stop. the goal is to stay in business. missy mcmann, essentially the same questionnaire because, you know, the, we've always heard the stilton versus the head and they tell you the rush. it has no veto. has no be what does apparently it does have

a veto. that's why this ukraine was not invited and never will be invited into the alliance. they are flowing themselves and there's their scribes in the media just lie about it. go ahead and columbus to. yes, i think that that is absolutely correct. i don't think it's a surprise to anybody who's paying a bit of attention that ukraine has no chance whatsoever of making it into nato at this point. or at any point, i think that this is kind of a care that they're dangling in front of them on a stick. in order to continue, i think that this is as joint as long as one said that about afghanistan. the goal is unless we're not a successful war it apply, then i think it applies now. and i think that the membership and anita was something that they are just kind of waving in front of ukraine in order to justify the continuation of using you. creating a bodies, this cannon fodder for this proxy war against russia. and it's initially, it's really quite amazing that the political leadership in can goes along with it. it's, it's really extraordinary. a sacrificing their own people. i suppose. the lensky and his crowd are paid very well. compensation is very good for these people. mike, let me go to you. i mean, when do we, we, they talk about allies,

when all the allies agree and conditions are met? you know, one, my friend. they are farther away from getting into nato than they were in 2008 when they were invited. as a potential invite and to be alive, they are farther away than they are in 2008. go ahead. absolutely right. i'm gonna reach back to the united kingdom and ben wallace who echoed the us saying we can't have a new member in the middle of a conflict that would just import war into the lions. and it really baffles me how this was never considered before. has the lensky always worked into it because the p a has been a catastrophic, even the photographs of the lensky just standing on his own, completely excluded from what's going on when, when we think about it, they say, when the allies agree, when they've been able to agree, in recent times, they've been divided over a success to stoughton bug divided the cluster bombs. now divided the key if and

yet the headlines will read, that nato has been more united than ever. you only need to do a very quick google search on the minimum requirement is for the nato membership and the us state department itself, and it's archive explicitly states. there is no checklist for membership, but it does say we've made it clear the minimum. there are 5 following requirements . number one, you members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity. you're absolutely right. that's not been existing in the crating for. yeah, it means what? 2008 if know 2014. so no ukraine has never had any chance of being in the nato by even the, in the us is own sort of requirements as a loosely puts it. well, you know, it's, that's a very good point because they talk about democratic norms and rules based order, which does not apply to ukraine in any sense. yeah, and you know, one of the things that's very interesting is that they say that ukraine has to win

the war to become eligible to be a member. so what they lose the war, do they get to become a member? i mean, i don't understand the logic here. yeah. and can you figure it out? i think the logically is that if war is the only game in town, so speed in, in they taught us towns and there is not a word about these negotiation sees fire or anything else. reason level. then of course, a movie you that by pumping in weapons down, i mean, nation and political support on good works. so that today, or you probably wouldn't be able to win over russia. i think the assumption is at night. and also it's very interesting now in a historical perspective, to look at nato as being in various ways in ukraine, basically is things i think 3 months of the ukraine to be cameron independence thing. yeah. everybody in the west who knew anything about security, including the number of us and passengers in moscow, including her burners,

who was now ca director. but was an investor and tons of scholars in the us. and europe have won the last 30 years. you can, we, you may, you may do expansion of nature, which is against the problem is, is very clearly it was to go by job. but you can't do you crying because that means war. and now you had a couple of days before the room. you saw me, you had by didn't say things saying basically the same word. i mean, this is a huge blunder. they should never have done what they did in 2008, which was a response to letting me a potent a very concerned speech. and the munich security conference, so i mean, they just totally intellectual flop down best for you it's, it's really interesting when you think about the censorship it's going on. of course, everyone knows like, for example r t was taken off of youtube, but it is absolutely right ever since the end of the cold war, there's been a huge debate about expanding nato. but according to a one year ago in 5 months,

you can't say that anymore. your app, you're getting to know a lot of trouble board. i was originally banned from twitter for quoting rock obama on ukraine. i got the band for that. okay. so that it's really quite interesting is what you can do with it. there's a whole literature out there and, but all of a sudden the last 16 months. oh there's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's for both need to speak about is missy. this is the times we live in, and i un, it'll let me, let me go to mister here, here in columbus. go ahead. i mean, yes. listen the censorship industrial complex that has been completely out of control on a number of issues. this is just one of them, and i think that it is very telling, i think any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. and i think that that's something that they have been able to avoid in this country. the propaganda machine is very powerful, very strong and very effective. i think a lot of people are, are willing and able to go along with whatever line that they're selling to us on the, on a host of issues. this one i think is a little bit different. i think that this one from the jump. i think a lot of people started to question it. they've managed to beat a lot of those people down through censorship. like with yourself and through other

methods of, you know, kind of silencing people through algorithms and shadow banning and that kind of thing. but i do think a lot of people are questioning this narrative a lot more than they would have maybe in the past. i think post iraq, a lot of people are more skeptical when these sort of a situations arise. and i think that that's what we're seeing now. and i hope that continues and we, and we continue to see people uh, push back on this uh, sort of a narrative. yeah, mike, you know, the, let's think about this here. so let's say hypothetically, ukraine winds the war against russia, then why does it need nato ok, why does it need to join in the lot? also, if you could crane most likely will lose this work. why would nato include a country that lost the war against russia? i mean, i don't, i don't understand the logic of any of this here. go ahead, mike. you know, none of it makes sense as you, as you rightly said, but if, if they were to win, well, how do they win? cuz those gold coast keep changing. i think biting and his lot was saying that nate,

ukraine would have to retain crimea as a, as a sort of standard of, you know, restore the territorial integrity. and this has been sorting about a lot. so then if you kind doesn't succeed in restoring it's 1991 board is then it doesn't maintain his integrity. that for it cannot be a positive nate. so because part of the conditions as i understood them was that the country had to be in control of its borders. so you, obviously, you're right, they never make sense and let's just so, so remember how a president page in distress about this expansion of nato, with a key concern of the russian federation, an x as an x essential security risk and the west, the media loss to him but in short order, then we had these goals for sweden and finland to join finland, being another encroachment up to the north. and then we have this talk of ukraine and suddenly celebrated the old look how united we are. look how putin has shot himself in the foot. no, you've actually justified his exact consent and you've been so strength. and the

argument that native has broken his promise, as has been stressed it to go, which is margaret fletcher being one of them from the u. k. who also showed good, but you have that not one inch east. well, so yeah, i mean, what is the future of nato? i'd say the brick wall with the crane. and you know, i think we're all in agreement. you claim will never be a member of that alliance rush. it will not allow it. that's why we have the conflict there now young. and i think what they are doing now is to substitute the word minimum, which is very clear in the treaty with or not substituting. but i expand that into what they called paul, those. and now i think 139 partners on all the, you know, boss of the world and, you know, they are thinking now planning to set up an h will office in japan all this and i think this is an extremely important point. what nature does today is not in the

photos with its founding treaty. it's in that sense and then be co activity outside on that started with the bombing of yugoslavia $99.00. absolutely, absolutely. well, what it is is it is the hang on hang on, we're gonna have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the nato. so i'm gonna stay with our team, the acceptance. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show . seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do you have the state department c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed

and whatever you do, don't my show state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the wayne state the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing the nato summit. the okay, right before we went to the break, i was talking with you on your, on your, on our role. so keep rolling, go ahead. you know, i just said that it is from the bombing of yugoslavia 99. it has done the same, then the lines have done things that are not in any way letter of course, very in with, in it's treaty which is

a very defensive un charlton based training. the only difference from the un java is but a's on to code 5 about, you know, mutual defense of each other inside the group. i could find that as, as a piece for the fact that tomorrow, the fact is that each breaking 247, its own provisions. and i would suggest that there should be established an independent international commission that looks change on lawyers and others who would look into how far can they to deviate from a founding treaty and what can be done about it. and if you're asking me about the future, it wants to go global by means of partners, because it's running out of members in europe. and that's why we have to stop it. it simply has to be stopped by a popular movement in the west. another country is that, wow, well, we'll see. we'll see how it goes. i, i don't, i think nato is days, are numbered. it's going to a separate strategic dropping to speed in ukraine. it's the graveyard of nato, at least i hope so. miss the, i don't,

i don't want to get to legalistic or anything like that. but you, there's always this talking about article 5 of the, of the nature tree. it's actually called the washington treaty. but, you know, everyone should read the article one of the treaty, nato con nato, as an organization, under its own roles cannot get involved in military complex using force. its members must use diplomacy and negotiations. nobody reads the 1st article and i'm going to agree with the mirror and complete violation of their own. and treaty go ahead, misty. indeed, yes, and i think that it's a how to smile there as you were saying that out loud because it's a curious to me that they don't ever actually follow that to it. i hope that you're correct and that this is going to be the graveyard for nato. i think that nato has it's long overdue for it to have been abolished. and we're, as we're seeing the situation in ukraine play out, it seems as if you may be correct. i think that you, they are going to suffer a very strategic defeat here. and it is going to be very difficult for them to

spend that in a positive direction for nato. and i think that that is something that they are trying to contend with. now i think that there's probably a little bit of panic behind the scenes. they're trying to figure out how they can best wiggle around in the situation and make it uh, you know, it and, and kind of save face. and the best way that they can. i'm not sure how they do that at this point. they are now so far involved. there's no way for them to back out without looking silly. and i think that that's something that they're continue can be contending with now behind the scenes trying to figure out how they can make that play without you know, making fools of themselves with the box that play out. actually missy, i do have the, the, the wiggle room for them. i shouldn't even say it, cuz i know they'll steal it. you know what they're gonna say. let's see, i'm gonna tell you what they're gonna say in ways opponent didn't make it to parents. we want, okay, once they get into football, so that's exactly, that's the, you know, room temperature i to these people. that's exactly what they're going to do with mike, you know, you know, again, they were talking about with when the allies agree on the conditions when

conditions are met here, we also have the g 7. yes. they're still around now making trouble. they're talking about security guarantees. as well, again, i thought that what, what did they have to do with the military, with security? i thought they weren't economic organization. okay. i mean, again, this is another fiction here to sell to people in the west, you know how to waste more money on a, on a loss costs. go ahead, mike. yeah, yeah, absolutely right. the g 7, as i understood it with these economic members and powers that came together and discussed such things. so it baffled me when even zelinski himself said, or i, if we don't get nato membership, at least we will get some reassurance is from the g 7. but we know that everything's been a big fight and nothing, but really in regards to that school, the security guarantees, it doesn't matter how you want to describe it at all these countries committing to the proxy war. and again, i'll refer back to ben wallace single. we don't want to import war into the

alliance and you have the same people of engaging in this property. well, they just the ones that directly at them. so they're happy to attack rusher and facilitate the death of russian soldiers, but they don't want to risk their own, their own soldiers and people. this g 7 nonsense is probably again, whether just gonna line up take photographs and pass each other on the back and lots about how they've all invested in the right arms manufacturers. and that's it . that's the economic side as far as i can tell. well it absolutely. yeah. also it will. yeah. let's talk about the issue of cluster bombs. i mean, again, rules based order and all of this nonsense they liked to talk about here. that is a very dangerous escalation. and russian, russian doesn't start big, go up the escalation ladder. it usually follows that. it's gonna follow this one for sure. yeah. so it's part of modern militarism that do you see problems only with one and 2 in your tool box like

a habit of that means whatever you're trying to do, you're tapestry. it's pulling down your hammering on and then finally, the warm itself will come down. the idea that this whole problem can only be solved by weapons. i think actually we have a statement from mr. stockton back in the direction that piece comes with weapons or something. uh instead of you know, uh the ceasefire negotiations, u. n. o is the media to mediation, etc. is, is just an indicative indication that these organizations outdated me. we don't need minute tourism in this world and they certainly don't do it because they have 12 times more military expenditures and roger, what we need is corporation. what do we need is not to waste money, but to solve the problem, to humanity as and do we, you know, reach out and accept that we're going to live in a multiple world with different cultures, different political ideas, different interpretations of human rights,

etc. any for the us and it's friends and allies will not do that. they will lose or they've become a peri afraid that will become, you know, in the long run, some kind of developing countries in the future. well, in order, 50100 years from now. well, not going to long time when we see his desperation and it comes to balance as an example of it. when you need to interviews across the bombs and you're in, you're fine. you're really, you're really losing it. yeah, well, missy, well, i'm glad that you understand that because this is an act of desperation and desperate people do desperate things and i wouldn't put it past them. do do other things as well. i mean, it's all about maintaining had gemini, is what we have here is ukraine, is this the example? okay. do you think of policy makers in washington in brussels? give a hoot about ukraine. they don't at all. they want to give them as much weapon reading that their young young men to be killed in the battle failed and the result will be the same. miss. yes, yes, a 100 percent. i'm so glad that the word respiration was used because that is exactly what this is. i think that the united states and the west has like

a wounded animal, backed into a corner and you're absolutely right. or government doesn't even care about the people of this country and i'm supposed to believe that they care about ukrainians . it is absurd on its face. and so we're happy to use them as cannon fodder. many people in a high level, high positions of power. i've said that we will fight until the last ukrainian. uh well, i mean that is a, that's a, it's a very brave and bold thing for you to say from back home. but i think that the people of ukraine are going to start to find that quite despicable. i find it despicable, the idea that we are using this country and its people, as you know, a weapon against russia is really despicable. and so i think that again, i think that they're starting to lose the narrative here. i think that they're starting to lose control. and i think that this is for sure and act of desperation . well, mr. you couldn't see it, but when you said the governments here don't care about their own people. the other guests on the program nodded their heads in a. okay and i, i'm agreeing with you as well. oh, mike, it's really interesting how this propaganda war there's being fought

a. it's interesting how we have used as a lensky. i think they were a little surprised with is mean tweet. ok. because you know, you say i've done everything you told me to do every thing and then you know, they make it down the alter, sorry, you're not the type of girl for us. okay. go ahead mike. a. yeah, i think you said i have given everything on demand respects, and even zelinski was smacked by again ben wallace saying, well, ukraine should say, find you more often. subsequent to the comments, i believe that lensky released the videos saying thank you no less than 47 times in a video, it's really been well, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic this talk about yeah, fights and so the last ukrainian is, is chilling. at the very least, if i would just add in a statistic that i came across is 97 percent of those people killed by cluster munitions have been civilians. yep. these weapons are not effective on the battlefield. they are not suitable for the battle field,

but that being supplied to it is desperation to keep this fight going, because remember we have the 2024 elections. i think the like subject sullivan, victoria new lens and all that desperate to just keep this going to 2024 and try and get another democrat in the white house. and that's where you ukraine and ukrainian people being sacrificed for, for what us call it. take for, for a while, for what exactly what, what is the national interest for europe and what is the national interest for the united states? it's never explained. yeah, and i'm glad that mike brought up a bad statistic because given the nature of the regime and cab before the conflict, and now i'm talking about corruption. i really worry that these cluster bombs will be sold to various groups around the world, okay. they're not going to stay in ukraine. they're too valuable to the various forces. yeah. as well, that's the risk that the west has taken hold of time with the pumping in weapons

into a country that is known for corruption as it can be. i mean, you talked about the split and what will be the future of the lines. and the cost of bouncing has been split and there is no human united muscle opinion about that. like a lot of other issues within nato own leadership or leaders. and i think what, what, what we, maybe we shouldn't be so surprised because if you look at all the wars of the u. s . has been leading or fighting the seems to be at them, they won't be lost or left to withdrawal. so why should we be surprised that if you would create a chaos enough k as in ukraine, you leave because you might have gotten something else you needed. the problem here is that the, we need some leadership in the western world that does not think of war as and confrontation and sanctions on beam on ice age and the, and strengthening behavior. and worse, as the main kind of, of foreign policy is totally outdated. as i said, i'm,

i knew was an i stated at that time 30 years ago, pulled down nato because it was all packed in the soviet union has disappeared. and that was based on their club that time of the alliance. therefore, the written, the original data today of the lines is only one thing and one word expansion expansion. it has nothing to bring to the world any more. it's an outdated, it may have been useful early, i don't know, but it's not useful for the future of the world that's well said, and that's all the time we have. i want to thing my guess in columbus land and here in moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. next time. remember prospect models the the of the lake by call, a magical place, a testicle, ice clean water is a dramatic geography. and of course,

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