go back to going underground rule got single around the world from dubai in the u. a. well, what some build is the most important events of our lifetimes. finish this week in south africa, nature, nations like france, bags for a brick, summers invitation, but were reportedly refused. so did the brick summit to finally seal the coffins of us and by currency and power, joining me now from so it'd be as capital bell. great is the founder of the think tank bricks plus analytics. yeah. as of and it's a vote like he was previously at the i m f deutscher bank and the ration development bank. thank you so much. i. yeah, it's live, so media across the world, but not in britain in the united states and the are be in union, said this is a big deal in south africa. the fact that they tried to minimize it, even though india landed on the moon and that is the i in breaks assignment. they're a bit worried, deliberately not covering it in a big way and even showing the speeches of, of the world lead is that we're at the summit as well. i think so there's a lot to worry about. and besides the worst days,

so many countries that are willing to join the breaks, looping that clearly, this is a set to become more and more influential in terms of the world economy. and then how many years. so there's one competition coming there way in terms of the competition that is likely to be faced by, by the west. and i think this is only for the better in terms of where the whole economy is headed. this is more options. ality, this is more of opportunities for, for various countries on the developing world and the, the, for the developed countries themselves as well as the farm the gateways and the possibilities to work together with the brands to build a more stable and more sustainable international system. but clearly, in terms of,

um, you know, the, this, the, the signals that we're seeing from the west, especially with some of the issues such as the common breaks currency. we see a lot of carbons coming from the west in the past several weeks. and the run up to the summer, which means that yes, some of these projects that are discussed by bruce r. worrisome for uh for uh, the western reserves. yeah. but those 2 are connected. maybe one of one is they just have until the countries in the break let them in. and then they, they reckon, you know, i really think that there are possibilities. and there are formats that could be pursued by briggs to attract nc, binds, and save, and develop the institutions uh from uh, uh, western countries to bites. uh, maybe later on the leaders themselves from the west to participate in. uh,

some of the brakes. uh, gatherings. uh, but uh this, this format i call is brakes plus, well says the format that is separately designed to pursue a greater um operation between the brakes countries and the western economies. uh, that is something that has to be pragmatic. that has to be grounded in uh, you know, be taking into account the interest of the developing countries 1st and foremost. and um, yes, i think uh, in terms of the 1st stages of that kind of cooperation is maybe possible for the development bang from uh say um europe or asia that have western participation to participate as well as the bretton woods institutions like the i'm a like the world bang, well when we're ready to leave, this has to be done in secret. i mean, you know, the, the rail, the rubel,

there will be the room new me and randall begins with our, i noticed the you've, you commented on. i mean of, and of course of a, this saturday radio, which i think is somebody saying is the critical one destroying this petro dollar. you call on have this with the i, your old, the workspace, the i, m f, involved shortly. i mean, they will wreck it from the inside. these have to be secret because they market sensitive as regards the dumping of us treasury bonds. i disagree. i think that the bruce, they have to look at as the possibilities of the cheaper yes. the next stage of globalization, they have to really be guided by very substantial goals. and if it is about globalization, it is about a m, f word that has to be led by the embrace, countries for the benefit of the global economy. it has to be inclusive,

it is always a very inclusive, and it is a binding a lot of developing countries. and it's who is for why not take on more and allow the some of the western institutions like the m f like the world bank to participate in the discussions on certain issues. certain issues that have a bearing on the global economy. like for example. ready issues that have to do with energy security and sustainability means development boosting. you cannot make bro, i think that one piece of approach is, is supported. actually, i think by most, where are you working? where are you working when get after you said that he wanted a common currency for africa. um that was um, probably probably i think um and then the which but yeah, well happen to get daffy you. you seriously think the international monetary fund,

seeing is the persecutor of the entire global south in terms of debt, but instead of destroying the lives of ordinary men and women and children, tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of people should be invited into the brakes organization and isn't that symptomatic that somewhere in the core of this bricks, organization? there is a certain codger of who i think a some goals in global lists that are destroying the real names of a bricks new world. well i think of is, is because really this bruce plus plus format that i'm trying to advance. it depends on how this format the structure. if this is a store that is essentially champion and led by the embrace economies, the principles of breaks and the central, any of the interest of developing countries will be taken into account. and this is

a possibility. i think this broad format that allows for some parts dissipation of the international institutions, including even better, no international the washington institutions they, um, they are all titled maryland sushi. and actually if you look at the statements of bruce economies in the past several years, the statements that come after the british summers, you will see that the express support for multilateral institutions, such as the w t o and they call, what did you make of that because i mean, clearly the video is not functioning a tool, i mean, sanctions with the united states that just the 2 different countries. i'm not sure whether the way that was in the w 2 treaties signed by the united states. clearly the w t o is dead or is dying. why?

why is china talking about reforms or the w t o? when uh, showing the most people impartial looking at it will see this has been natural and what began with the riots in seattle, at the time of the century. a. what's a good sign the ones and see how the markets as was too long, since they could not make roads more open march across, across the globe fantasies. they was born in w t o as instrumental in uh, uh, creating a more open uh, international. i understand that, but how can you reform it if the united states weaponized sanctions against countries, it politically doesn't like all around the world. and the united states is the biggest uh, economy not by p b. well, i think the clearly, there are a lot of issues, a lot of problems with the w. c o. and we need to stand up between some of the

major heavy ways that are members of the w 2 will boot a more broadly between and develop them and developing countries. but there is no other way i think. so in building a new mobile economic architecture, these elements such as the w t o, such as the items such as the bank are very much needed in order for this new crosstrek to be to be really for the benefit of, of the global economy. and to work properly because these are a multilateral institutions, there are balances, china, other developing countries are working together to fix them. both the that's the only way i think the working with a well within these institutions to, to uh, to create a more equal, more kind of inclusive, uh, framework is, is really the only way for, for us going for something is required. but truly,

given that china is the biggest trading pack, couldn't the showing i cooperation organization create its own type of w t, o organization, excluding those powers that i considered by the global, south belligerent and those that they're trying to oppose them? there is indeed a lot of talk about the possibility of mega regional arrangements, some of the largest regional integration groups to essentially take over a trauma from the w t o and the place the organization. but then the data is because, uh, well we will end up with is most likely, you know, just several reasons essentially, driving the whole um, effort rather than is being multilateral in that same sense as will be the case and international organization. so my proposal is really for the dom, you'd feel to be reformed in such

a way that includes not just individual countries, but also regional blocks instead of buying for power. um for the w t a, with these regional integration racial and why not work together with them uh for the benefits of the global economy. okay. i, i'm sorry to interrupt, but you can't do that kind you because of the sanctions policies over electronics and investment. i mean, the britain a sanction one way in the united states. i don't know how many chinese companies a sanction a chinese companies the sanction in your over the united nato countries are, cannot be part of that process. i mean, they've got a sanction themselves that way. do you think bricks is prepared for the increase iops and intelligence? what i mean blue low is over the road. he's been on this program about the, the over through a little uh with the washington behind it. but the south africa is a $3000000000.00. i am f debt warnings in the week of the break summit. they've got warnings from the i m f. and um,

i mean the u. u. s. u k. as all over at home at war with china, the britain, this sentence aircraft carrier, the numerous times there, the united states is sending weaponry against china. base is all around it. and of course it was in the proxy war and ukraine against russia. well left voice is really bad, so the base, the brakes didn't do and she do wish to focus on there right now. my abilities and those slides fixed on we see that apart from solely this issues. there also economic growth issues and, and most of the breaks economy. so the way to reduce your ball and the ability on the international stages is really to reduce, to the way possible your and it can nominate them balances. this is something that needs to be more of a focus for the bread is so important. mind you in terms of the economic agenda in

terms of the financial market agenda. there's not as the presence of dad in the, um, some of the discussions that we've, we've been saying in the past, so years within brakes. yeah. shopping this amount of stuff you that well from the founder of ricks plus an ethics involving managing director of your asian development bank. up to this break the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the founder of brick spots on linux of old, a managing director of the region development back years of this of oh yeah, it's live in part one. you were telling me about the fact that some of these bricks economies that are in debt or these global south economies, they want to join brakes need to reform, isn't the point that they shouldn't in any way, reform the way the i m f and world bank tries to make countries reform i tool and

pursue of anything. i don't know. policy is a bit like the chinese communist, but he went to goldsboro, 800000000 people that above poverty, directly against the kinds of ideas that were emanating from the i m f and well back. massive stage investment into, into smaller units. but still keeping the idea of chinese communism a life a little, the whole idea of the find the race is precisely to create new options and to create scope for divergence in the model is a big development that are pursued by develop the economy. so absolutely, the platform that is created by uh, by groups and the formats of words, los and institutions such as the end of the day, basically a passcode for optionality and the possibility for developing countries to essentially choose between say that conditionality and is coming from the lives of the i'm

a for the world bank or the options in terms of financing from the new institutions that are they created by bruce and bracewell. so this is, this is about the choice. this is about the holiday and this is precisely what the grace of what the brakes are doing at a certain time is of course the there the will be, i think of going forward inevitably a compensation of sorts and between say, the system of bretton woods institutions and the system of the institutions that is uh, becoming more and more prominent controls and bruce, and i think that that kind of competition is maybe sleep. so that may be beneficial for the will become historic 3. when any global sab lead to tries to pursue the economies and economic strategies different to that basically dealt out to the

business schools of a leads in your up and the united states. they get assassinated by the c i a. so what is the point of breaks coming out with all these fruitful ideas of multi polarity, different ideas, allowing different countries to seek their own ways. if, as a ally and as they converge on some, they must be some economic convergence is that alone for door? if they don't have a military, we as well, i think uh the um, the key to success really. i am an economist. so from my side, the way i see it is we just wanna know its dream, joe biden and calling to see if you saw the north stream economically. what happened to your lease? so initially i wanted to say this is use symbol, a strong enough platform that has a lot of countries as this seems to be recently the case with breaks now and breaks plus. then you will have

a central rally in the world economy that isn't easily attract the best thing slows trade slopes. and this is essentially, i think, the goal for uh, for the bricks the comedies listen to what you're saying during the break summer. you saying it's not about our antagonism with the west, it's about us trying to organize ourselves. and this is exactly the point the, the developing world needs to organize itself and to render the alliance, so to speak. nomic alliances that are out there be more structured just then, you know, the same way that if you look at the developed economies, there alliances of, you know, their regional integration moves and others. there are very, very structured, very competitive, better developing world on the basis of the platform of brakes plus the need to

advance towards a, an alliance framework that way, i sorry, i don't understand, here's how they can pass it to the village in the united states and europe is when a disaster are given me for europe. germany is in recession, partly because of united states policies. it's that the lines that it's destroyed. economic growth in the past 12 months is asked of, you are a bits alliance with the united states economically. as well, i mean it work for you or to is may also be um, you know, options that they will explore increasingly as they see the brakes economies are becoming more influential. every recently become the center of gravity in the world economy. they will know how to, uh, page, twice about how the lines, there's been prioritization of auto alliances. they will start recording morning. ford was to uh, to the likes of brakes and i think it, yeah, it's um, it's important to cheat the door offered for, you know,

we said international organizations with western participation, but also regional integration blogs. and i think so when the, when they talked about the bruce a plus plus framework that would allow for some western participation of course, during the 1st stage assignment, primarily you know, development, they situations that was really perceived primarily more of a pragmatic coming adjust the way the birds we invite president the back on because i'm, i'd say, i don't know, he, i mean i may ask him whether if he shows it and they gave it to you about that ability for the united states to ignore the success of brakes. did you not to see that she's in pain, looked angry during his speech about the western circle west and imperialism, over so many years old in bricks, in a, in a way that was far more and tagging his stick than what you had from lula. why is

this a loan from loans? that'd be a boot and it'd be, it'd be say yeah, i think the chinese approach is always that of the patients. and i think the patients is one of the keys to be success. the chinese academy experienced in the course of the past several decades. yes, there will be, you know, accomplish. there will be frictions, contradictions with the west, the way that the child that takes it in stride and continues to impress its agenda. inclusive risks of, you know, i think from the statements that were tearing from uh, from china seas that they are actually open to the possibility of some wishing participation. further down the road is no longer true. we've done the break down the road when their economies have collapsed. it may be, but in the interim,

is it the case that actually china, some people are saying is going to have trouble satisfying their own demand at home, given the, i know in the, in the, in the nature of nation press, they say drive isn't economic trouble but within china, there are obviously worries that, that it's going to be able to produce enough goods just as applied to markets. so why not just ignore your, a, a, and the nature of a nation power is that many in the global is out. believe it being responsible for so much kidding and destruction over these past is and trade between african, latin american, south east asia and the non washington, the line global countries of the east asia. the more options the better. so you shouldn't exclude the exports and well, they're the ones excluding and fans. sure. but at the same time, i think if you look at china, you'll see the routes of the past years. the emphasis has shifted in terms of the road paradigm,

away from exports towards domestic demand for services and other drivers. and of course, domestic consumption. now for, for a variety of factors, these drivers of a week. and so, and there's a need, i think, for the chinese economy to we discover and explore the possibilities of using exports. as you know, as a waiting force. and boosting can only grow and disregard bruce plus is, is a major asset because it opens up large markets of the global style to china's exports. and these are the markets that are relatively closed in terms of the levels of import duties. at the same time, these are the market, is that how was significantly higher growth rates than those of the developed economy? so i think for china, there may be assigned to the newer church. and when they,

we discover the need to fortune has, with the radio exports the blog given the famously given the famously joseph burrell, of the pharmacist and the rest of the world, the jungle. and like the god. and if you're up and the united states and european countries consider themselves well, the biggest threats to them, china, how do you expect them to sabotage all the plans of uh, brakes need is brakes committees, business development committees, have, are they going to use propaganda to affect market sentiment, or are they actually powerless except for the military's to sabotage the plans of the bricks? groups as well. i think let's say you seen in terms of the approach to grids and it was primarily essentially in the morning breaks insurance. so there is no meetings in terms of their agenda. now,

increasingly, i think this is something that is becoming more and more difficult. uh for the west, simply because vision is so important and so critical towards the world economy as a whole. and also for the international financial markets, the theme of our fire, the, the british currency is, is really the most important. and the most widely discussed the right now with respect to break hard to drop it just on, on the, on the 5, using saudi arabia in the most critical member there. i mean, why, why do you think that we're not hearing more about the representation at breaks given it's a centrality to the global energy of will be able to live in i'm a different phone. i'm so sorry, a way to joining briggs because i think clearly 1st of all, this is amazing of course energy layers. so from the point of view of the longer

sort of development of bruce, this is, this is of course a major asset. but um, the, the most important thing that i see with the brakes is that each country represents a certain region of the longsol. and so there is one region, one of the few regions that is left out by the breaks in terms of coverage, if you will, of it or is the middle east, the middle east, the leading economy is, uh, so you may do so in terms of weighting representation of the global south of makes complete sense for saturday raises to join the bricks and the how will the brakes system and all of these plans be effected if, as is opening, the being spoken about. now in the united states, a 2nd military front against china is opened up in the next. who knows, the way they talking, it seems to be, we seem to be months away from some sort of military confrontation in the south

trying to see how that effect makes. plus, you know, i think the really, the, the guiding principle for breaks needs to be, to look through all of these difficulties. all these challenges, of course, to be very ambitious and a very inclusive agenda with regard to brakes. plus, you clearly saw the when china we launched the brakes plus a for map last year. the response from the global solve was tremendous tens and tens of countries while it's joining a response. so i think that's kind of loosely open this with regard to the global saw and also greater pragmatism, loose thing, the economic powers of a british plus we'll uh, you know, position. i think the brakes were far stronger position in terms of insurance. it matches the economy, but also international stature. yeah, it's 5,

it's about like thank you and that's it for the show will be back on monday to see if there's life in the old and by yet with the officer who was until recently commanding general of the entire united states army in europe with some 100000 troops were tied us to attend a general, then hodges ahead of the 2nd down about 3 of the us defeats in afghanistan until then. you can give it to us. why would i social media if it's still intensive in your country? and that's what channel going. i'll be going to give you a normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see you monday the the

the, or the the garage of business services, the screen of the bus can do. i just need to get the meeting with key at the washington state, the pals class and he was supposed to phone of send

2 professional men city and to keep the list of all but huge. but they use the headlines right now and off the international as the french influence in africa as delta another below, as needed. chair orders. power says i'm best suited to leave of the slide from credit. and his presence in the region has maintained security and saved many countries from total collapse. denmark proposes binding the public desecration of any holy book in the country as after a series of koran bodies and scandinavia promptly spawn out french across the muslim world. palestine accuses israel, todd line, national security minister of racism. all 3 claimed his rights and the rights of