coming on, you know, if you chewed into circles corporate uh, mainstream media or in the nature of nations, they say the food crisis is to, is russia. i mean, that's an interesting to blame in ukraine. the grain deal in the bread bhaskar to the world. that's a story on the media, is that the whole story or is 783000000 hungry tonight? not about supply this. i would say it's not even part of the story. i would say that's what's going on. in fact, in the global we've markets and deal with green markets is much lot to do with profiteering by large agribusiness of speculation and the financial markets. because if you look at the buttons of demand and supply and even changed over 2022, you find that there's no real global change. in other words, yes, there was a decline in production in the ukraine, not really so much at all in russia. global exports have gone up to the production has gone up and global demand, which is, well,

just utilization. the difference between that is around the same. so it's really about the fact that you create more and the fact that russia and you pretty much such a logic sport to this was made into this big thing to terrify everyone and provide a very convenient cover for other businesses to raise the prices. it is also meant that especially in the busy between february and june 2022, there was a massive increase in financial speculation and brought up markets and weeks commodities to adjust. this happened in the us in chicago. it happened. that is, the lead exchange is the biggest one in europe. and you find all kinds of financial play, of hedge funds, pension funds, getting big done into these and leaving often the southern point because they knew that in fact, it isn't really a big show. it isn't supplied. and so by or september prices are back to the pre war levels in the wage markets and the futures market. but developing countries

fast, much higher prices, because meanwhile, currencies have depreciated and they are facing really a major crisis. i know you know and advocating profiteering, but there is lots of money to be made is, is hey, in short selling and long selling. but then why is, is that people don't actually know around the world where the prices for breads that they eat come from. i mean, how, how does the media manage to distort the mechanisms of the economies is something to do with it is for universities, you teach and universities. is this something to do with the trickle down economics theory? i would, i wouldn't go trickle down economics. yeah. you say it's a v, i don't mean trickle down economics is where i'm in the ferry. is it coming down from the academy? yeah, yes. you're right. the theories are coming down. but i would say that this is not really a box theories. it's taking

a basic idea that everybody knows demand and supply, right? the do mind, if advises as applied doesn't change, then prices will go up on a supply. all those and demand doesn't change, the price is gonna go up, right? that's a basic thing. anybody understands? it states that and then taking any unexpected events to claim that this is going to dramatically affect one of the 2. so this actually happened already. we've been to this particular, we've had this movie script play out already in 2007, 2008. when there was another global sold crisis at that time everybody said, oh, it's because demand has increased, china and india are growing and they're eating my tool. i mean, they basically pres, made out that it was because supplier of this thing. but there is a such an increase demand from china and india that causes the prices to go up. but in fact, we know, but that didn't happen to be increasing demand from china and india was

a bad. it was just going of the same rate to, to the always grow in the last few years. it wasn't, there wasn't knowing balance. and then they said, oh, but as a how this strange and in canada, the australian wheat crop is affected. so they, they bring out the news as if it's going to be a big, massive impact on the supply. but the thing about something like we, it's produced all over the world. so if there's a harvest page or something like that, as it could be compensated for by an increase production, some of this. and that's really the story of what's happened even in 2022. obviously, all these news organizations deny they're being controlled and some style in this couple involving profiteering hedge funds and private weeds companies show. and i'm saying, i'm saying that it's the simple answer which is strange to them including buy agribusiness. you know, if you're a good reporter, i'm looking at the week market, of course you wouldn't talk to some of the big green changes. and they would say, oh my god, it's a mess. you know, i mean ukraine is love at sporting. it's

a disaster isn't going to mean a 20 percent rise in prices, so they believe it. well, russia is saying that it's uh, the goal of the deal was to head off of the food crisis. it's ready to supply nation's free, but the u. s. is given quarter of a $1000000.00 extra does the landscaping loss of most of exports. so maybe it wasn't about poor people at all. you written the lesser or you signed the letha along with 236 other economists to un secretary general antonio gutierrez and will bank was a banga. i don't know how it goes down with the world bank because the, i'm a tell me about this letter that you've signed, co signed. so this is actually the, the immediate context is the fact that the u. n. is in the process of a mid term review of the sustainable development goals. okay. and going number 10 is reducing any quality. so we have been on doing that. it's good to hear that.

that's the goal that has been marginalized completely is really the awesome child of all the s d t is there, is nobody taking that out but emphasizing it. and yes, we've seen a professor just eclipse and we were involved in failing to atlanta. we feel that if you do not actually address and you're going to to you and also to meet any of the other goals and to address it equally, do you have to begin by measuring it proper property? so i letter saying, well, no one problem with this goal is that you have the wrong measure. the measure is what is called shed prosperity. loved to do right and is looking at where the bottom 40 percent of the population is going faster than the average gdp. so if that's the case, then this is oh yes, fine shed prosperity and no, not looking at any of the any quantity indicated. but in fact, we know in countries that you really have to look at the genie go efficient, you have to look at, let's say the farmer ratio, which is the ratio of the income of the top 10 percent of the population to the

bottom 40 percent of the population, if it gives you a kind of, you know, the rates, what does the book relative ratio? and you have to look at these indicate just for doctors income, but also went because we know where it's in the qualities exploding. so what we're saying is, let's say you cannot go by an indicator that doesn't tell me what the real estate of any quality they are claiming that more than half the countries are showing progress. but if you look at the genie or you look at the bottom ratio only about 20 percent of the country that's showing progress. in other words, 80 percent of countries are regressing, they getting less on these out there to get just, well, i don't know about you, but i mean, when you go to all these conferences, i live there. big management consultants. they're advising developing nations meds . okay. no, what about those kind of go efficient central here about reversing a statistical analysis to be talking about absolute poverty and getting away from

even in poverty at all in the face of a i think you probably describe a as a catastrophe for the poor as people in around the world as well. yes. you know, i mean, these blue book consultants, so as you best see us in a rushing around the globe advising countries and multinational institutions, i would argue or v a, b to any kind of progressive economic ideas. my friend, money i must have got to having to do it in the past. has written a recent book about this. it's called the big gong, which is looking at the consulting industry and the role that they play. but i think the real point is best, but you know, when you get extreme and ecologies like this of cost, relative measures are very important. but they, in eventually also needs to absolute increase in poverty. and that's what we're seeing today. yes, being the worst of the top 10 percent. it's loading. and yet more people in absent, huge number of funding into poverty. and especially i have to go is we've actually

seen more hungry people. the number of hungry have increased by more than a 120000000, according to the fios estimation. i mean, i want to get back to those consultants in the 2nd, but you wrote the letter to the uh, well, bank is partner institution. obviously dominique stress khan and christine the god uh where i am a managing director is guilty uh con for rape. the god for uh, negligence. uh, actual crimes. uh oh. the gods. uh uh, negligence was, uh, she didn't take up a one year prison sentence, but you know, as an institution, a $155000000000.00 is owed to it. countries do take the i am a serious the how do you characterize the i m f and i don't know whether you want to give advice to any will meet as a developing countries about what to say in a meeting if they have one coming up with an i m f representative to renegotiate their loans as well where it just stopped. so, you know, i think it smells fairly clear to most expensive people that these global

institutions i no longer fit for purpose. they recreated in a very different was with very different geo political circumstances, with very different political economy would very differentiate as of economic followup. and the world has changed very dramatically, but the i m f and the world bank persist in a structure that is, does not represent the was as it is today, or the global economy. and that gives disproportionate power to the u. s. and the european countries, which they have not used in the most desirable ways. and so they're also very clunky institutions. they take forever to do anything useful. they are supposed to provide b. i'm f as in jobs and providing tetra me. we have a debt crisis by their own admission, more than 70 countries. i mean what severe or multitude then stress. they do nothing for. yes, i mean the countries, the approach them for the different day, 3 years before they get get

a result. and the doctor really is so niggling is it's so stingy that it amounts to you know, it actually doesn't really have the so off to the treaties for example is i'm yeah, has just managed didn't agreement in zambia. and so you don't got to be sent to jump to i. mr. payments are going to continue to pay spot due to 50 percent of the budget's on deadly on debt servicing. this is off to the so called relief. so you can see how these are institutions, but i'm not really taking the concerns of different countries seriously. progressive, dr. gosh, i'll stop you. the more from the re non professor economics at the university of massachusetts that i'm has after this break, the

whole of the main body of the people of marcus on the ball visitors in june. i'm due for an influence on our policy and they're focused on the us are key because the us is a major normal force, but it also has played a critical going to different points in parks on history, the

welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor dry, the gosh, professor regan nomics at the university of massachusetts, and i'm just, we were talking about the, the i m f in the alarming statistics like 50 percent of developing countries been di budgets being paid to in the debt relief ukraine actually said the item that we either that servicing, i mean you said the a slow, they gave $10000000000.00. do you grain uh, quite quickly. uh, give me, do you think the one psychological eval element of the war is that uh, they don't seem to be any warble ons. any war taxes have to pay? i mean, previous was the populations of get tired of having to pay for was there seems to be unlimited amounts of money in your up in the united states. and where's the money coming from as the, your a gives it away and that's the united states because of the way, you know,

one of the biggest joke the p v is in so many of these rich countries is that there is no money. we have seen, but when they want they can produce money out of a hat, right? during coleridge, the us spent an additional $50000.00, but god protect. we're talking to use of dollars. just emoji, suddenly to be for the go into the packages. okay. your opinion? yeah, very, very large increases. i mean, all the rich countries increase the deficit. additional spending by between 10 to 30 percent of the b. ok. by contrast, 1000000 don't countries, low income countries, they compare the country spent about 5 percent and you be low income countries, 2 percent, or do you think the to give you the difference? the us spends 2000 dollars. additionally, busted low income countries spent to donna's bus additional that's what kind of difference we're talking about. but the point is that when are these

countries won't be, can spend money, they can simply print and produce and spend the money. and they've done that during the fund damage. they've done that for any further stimulus packages. they've done it for the green war. it is very, very large bill is going to a relatively small economy, massive amounts of defense spending going to ukraine. they've done that to save their own backs and they can work on the weekends and be very flexible if it's something like silicon valley bank cost and to get bank that does that stay summer that you find no rules, always nothing. the same thing in europe when it's a pretty sweet switches at stake, suddenly they will go back on everything the, all the regulations that they had to glad well in, you know, inviolable. and they weren't providing relief and assistance and come to a team over the weekend. a country like gun, uh, a country like sandy, a country like, oh, the country's jobs that are distorted for that to be

a waiting. yes. i mean, to jump through endless hoops before they gets even in the direction of some money . well, if the money is being recycling through items, companies and so on, and it's being printed, why is it that the bank of england, the fed easy, we don't think it, they don't think about inflation. is inflation positive this? because why is it say food and inflation say the past month or so in britain is 20 percent food inflation in india, or it's only 5 percent in china, one and a half. so i've had for good. okay, 11, brazil, 6 percent. why is inflation for food going up in the countries that are at war in ukraine and not so much for the global south? this is very much to do. this is all retailing station, this as a whole. there's the money that consumers face in the shops and that, you know, there's a very long distribution chain. so the real story here is, it's not because of what's happening to the global reach price. it's really about

what's happening in that distribution chain. so when i say that, i mean, you know, governments, it's in the, in funds i've got to have to, i think, the, the boss, the companies or, you know, the companies that produce all of those basic basic food items. because they are charging excessively high price, is even one that has nothing really in terms of the costs to justify that. so a lot of it has to do with the distribution to that. okay, well as soon as i know what you're here on, this will go mainstream media from the economists and the economies that are being shown in 3 digital britain, i should say, add to it, saying is, may have to reverse. and a lot of these saturated privatization is, i mean the main big is watered company in london. terms of order might have to be nationalized. they've obviously like, uh, in europe and in the united states and some nationalized bank stuff that's 20 o 8 prizes. why is it developing countries is still being advised and it relates to what the i may have presented. we say is part of that conditional am if

a loans and loan servicing, why are they still being told to privatize even here in the u a. i mean, every country in the, in the developing world and emerging economies, those big consultancies are hired and so want to privatize not democratize. yes. and in fact, the advanced world is recognizing more and more that you need the public sector that you need to probably control over critical institutions including and find that, but also in a whole range of utilities and other things. however, bad big business still wants to make money out of all of these things in the rest of the world. and the reason why it's engaged on allowed is because it, it actually is extremely profitable for global big businesses, especially in the multinational, is based in the us and europe and japan as the way to actually make money from these privatization. so a lot of this reflects the interest to big business. i'm not being conspiracy

theorist. i'm not saying that they are sitting in the back room and say, oh let's do this. i'm just saying that the whole process works out in such a way that the major beneficiaries are in fact, big business. i want to emphasize to the people in the rich countries are generally ignorant about all this. i don't think that people would actually be supporting these kinds of things. they, they don't realize what's going on. they are all fed this idea of private sector efficiency. they also fence the idea that bureaucracies in the global south of bloated and they're all these people sitting around in offices picking their noses and not doing any work. and so they feel good. yes, it's ok to drive it down because it would make them more efficient. people actually feel this. they are not informed about the actual processes that are going on and what it's doing to living standards. and actually just a 5 or a whole many people in, in the global majority, i mean, currently is don't conspiratorial. i mean, idea, logically, it's taught at business schools and it to universities to these are leads. but why

is it that governments in the global south haven't gotten onto what people in the developed world already know? i mean, i can understand zalinski selling to black rock and jp morgan, most of ukraine or was of ukraine. but why is it the global south is still talking to delay d y k b m g p w. you see the big for about how to change their entire economies to make them better according to them, you don't. government in the developing was also are very complex creatures that they reflect the particular political economy. and often they reflect the interest on their own edits and sometimes those that lead. so what we used to in the old days called comfort, or that is that interest that tied up with multinational capital as well. so it's not that the governments are representing really the interest of the people. i would say that's true, even in the global not. i mean, this whole thing about giving so much about was what was so many subsidies and then

power to pharmaceutical companies that produced the vaccines entirely above the cost. but then we're allowed to judge really privy to prices and retain the fidgets that didn't tend to benefit anyone other than the farmer companies and the finance companies that had invested in them. it didn't affect it, didn't benefit ordinary people in the, in the goal does not. but so governments often operates in ways, but don't reflect the interest of their own people. and it's not being transmitted to the people, even as they suffer through this. that's right. i, i'm ditching into us now. i'm stunned at the nuns about this, even in a, in a university down in the progressive body of the us. be most of the, don't know the roll, the big fall nicely. they live with extraordinary high costs of drugs. i mean, the incident of essential life saving drug for diabetes is actually prohibitively expensive and you'll find the instance of the old people going without it because

if they can't afford to have more than a few dollars a month and so on. yes, all of this is somehow accepted and i find that extraordinary because it's a real lack of knowledge about how governments have created the regulations that will benefit large companies rather than the people that i remember. one doctor saying that in the develop world things are bad, but developing well there things are bad, but there is hope i don't know after having and what 35 years experience teaching in india versus easing in the united states. is it some of the levels apology, i know in india they have the same amount of poverty as all of our and ever got put together. but there's hope in the developing world, where is it with develop? will they have it? and they, they have a crisis of mount nutrition and lack of food security without any seeming hope to eradicate it. well, you know, no, i would disagree. i think the degree of poverty in the developing world, and certainly in india. and so i do show that it does not seem to come back in the

us. yes, that is o g d s that has hung up and does not interested into us. but the level of destitution that you find in india is way beyond india that that's why the us has a snap food stamp program to protect the 40000000. yes, we can't afford to eat tonight then. yes. so, you know, the us does programs which objects to other countries doing it. so it, it brought a, gave some the w t o against the indian national forest to give it to you. we just just providing for the green to the board has the book, what is they have a food stamp program which is w t o compatible. simply because they made the w to a rules in a way that would make it compatible. i mean, it's really shocking that we find such egregious examples of be not pushing policies, but they would never apply in their own countries. of course, there are somebody say the w t o is on the way out now, and that the error of the video from you can jot the timings from the seattle riots

and uprising to, to now, what, how tricky will it be for developing countries to the dollar eyes, the couple from new liberalism in western europe in the united states. i mean, they come, they have investments in dollars. they have silver and wealth funds. what's the future going to be like as they try and i've asked themselves of the connection to the united states in europe and become independent future. we'd be messy. the future has got to be extremely messy because as you said, there are so many lakes and also because let's face it, the in needs in all of our countries, are very closely integrated with the us and europe. and so they want to keep all those things as well. so it's going to be very complicated and messy. but i do. the process has already started. i mean, you've gone tab, i think the global north and g 7 in particular. they don't really, if you like the extent to which the rest of the was lost,

faith lost draft of the band. demik was a real eye opener for many countries, especially in africa, because it was too late to self interest was so exposed the nationalism in terms of the vaccine grabbing the resistance to having eclipse waiver in w. d. o to allow other countries to produce the offer of vaccines when the 2 weeks before the expiring date. so they've become being used and then all of that is classified as for an aide. all of these have been such a extreme and soft as a betrayal because very that your trust and so best for when the us and you're surprised that, oh, why isn't everything mr. quoting us about the you paid works these initial be because most countries now feed with these a not visit g 7 does not need the need as of themselves. and they will only push the interest. so why should the rest of the world going on with them on everything they want? well,

so look at the silicon valley. very powerful. we go out in multiple platforms, some of them don't mind, but others even raising the question of profiteering over the vaccines and the, the iniquity of the whole go with crisis is enough to get them from binding a sense of the country like the united states or or in west new york, just quickly on the environment because they talk a lot about the environment in the you and in washington. we had small hash on talking about the by the ministrations of destruction. the north stream pipelines, largest ever meet they mission events a man made in history. so is the environment unsettling. the facts, gas now being sent to your how seriously do you think the western countries are taking the wisdom of leads a taking the environmental crisis had to cope 28 air into by you know, i mean dispatch about the environment. i really feel that the leads across the was not just in the west, and it's across the world and not taking this time as crisis seriously enough. and

everybody's persisting with more fossil fuel investment. animal fossil fuels subsidies, the direct and indirect subsidies given to fossil fuels were estimated not by me by the i mass right at about 65 on each trillion in 2020. since then we know they've gone out, but because of the ukraine war. so in fact, we are getting an extraordinary persistence of fossil fuels, which we know opening the cabinet and whatever green investment is coming is really at the margins. it's slight increase as i know for she has a child that's probably the most advanced and pushing towards in your book. but across the world, better still heavy reliance on supposed to sealants and the new gold investments which are coming up in menu in the country. so i am really in despair about the lack of any realism forget, you know, that this genuine concern, they just, that's just unrealistic about how they're approaching that line that dropped the

price of china goes. thank you. thank you. and that's it for the show. keep watching, going underground every saturday and monday you can keep in touch with us while i roll out social media. if it's not sense in your country and had to channel going, undergoing tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground excuses. the, [000:00:00;00] the, the garage of business and the system

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