why do i need the surveillance of oil? so how about i and you said in the constitution that there is a whole property that even signing the constitution. but now we are finding a situation where the police or he says this. sonya is worth a force to be joining that this vs out of c. now that i get into c, v, then the why do you know where those are fighting? doesn't mean you can use from we saw that the video to 50. you tell me kind of wasteful visa id also ended up bit all for now, but coming up, history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes and pakistan is an example. a former pakistani sen dives deep into the countries for political crisis. next on worlds apart. don't go far the, [000:00:00;00]

the hello and welcome to the part history and doesn't repeat itself, but it often bribes. and the mark twain were alive today. you might have added particularly saw in practice on the walls. 5th most populous country has long found itself at the crossroads of the regional and global politics, which has made internal power, struggles, old and warning tends. whereas is lama, but likely to be after the current political and legal crisis, as well as to discuss that i'm now in join. but jeff ed jabbar former pakistan is sen federal minister and officer sen jabbar. it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. is my

pleasure. thank you very much for inviting me now talk histones politics has never in particular adult, but i think you would agree with me that the sequence of events which began with the ousting or the removal from power all the former prime minister amber on how it is not petering out and it's draining the countries resources, it's taking away attention from other pressing social challenges. i'm sure there are lots and lots of factors contributing to these dynamic. but what do you think is the chief one china? what has happened since april 2022, in a sense, is that all the chickens, the chickens of contradictions and distortions the market street have come home to roost in the past 60 to 70 months. which is not true in any way under estimate or under value, the profundity of the crisis that we are going through. but only to suggest that

this is the outcome of it started the process by which we have tended to allow institutional distortions within our system distortion that as it is out to them in balance between their trust save the 3 pillars of this fit, the legislature, the executive and the judiciary, but that does not cover the false appearing, which is the military. now the military and practice on his part of the executive. and yet it is a domain offered on barkley because the civil political leadership over the past several decades has constant b. but make it the sender of which for another part of the domain. and partly because the ministry itself is it, do we have as a result of this mutual sandia to respect lives?

that's partridge and responsibility. we are very we are to do for the last 70 event . is one, sir? yes, i'm senator. i know that you have argued in your writing, but this is not the 1st time the attack is done, finds itself in, in inside situation. you wrote the current events remind you of the conditions 33 years ago when the 1st cabin and by the 1st female moslin prime minister of their put to was dissolved also under a seemingly legal pre taxes. what are the similarities there? the similarities here that as in 1990, there was a could you imagine between the ministry and the then the civil political process. that good news is there. however, there is one major difference and that drive the hill street reading good, significant follow up is not present in the year 2023. that office has been

a mess you later. it's positive be more and it has become really a setting morning enforced. however, that vacuum as being modern made by the extraordinary strands and in fact that the ministry has acquired with the consent of the 4 digit leadership. so that mocks in basic difference. however, the net presented kids that there is conflict. they've got, there is a d, there's a postponement which has not happened in that instance 33 years ago. this time, what judy and a b c didn't usually be constitutional, different nations, or the time frame did which election should be here at the federal level. and the provincial lives have been disregard, and that is why we didn't do it all most uncertain. now, uh, as you have suggested in packs of convenience and contrivance are rarely very

stable and the pakistani history has many examples of them falling apart. how long do you give the current crisis, despite all the delays and all the disregards of the sub schedule for elections? and uh, when do you think it will leave your country? but i see the future, and it is all, it is unwise to predict the future. but as far as i can see over the next, it does the 16 months. i see it happening in 2 phases. the 1st phase has to be the forwarding of elections. and it is growing a convergence and unanimously, even amongst 4 digit code forces, even though one major part of that component does not yet agree to setting the time limit as soon as possible, but they will come at all. now when that happens, it brings in the, in bonded,

over with the elections will truly be free and that they just assume that they will be free a bit. that will then come into the next phase. because those who knows, i'm not going to necessarily accept the validity of the election. and therefore, there are bound to be intrinsic challenges. both economic and political and structure that really be inheriting and getting over from the past 3 or 4 years. those are not going to disappear, only because the election to be the head of many people are saying there's only elections and that's really, really solve the problem. i with respect and i'm really disagree. the basic institutional challenges the back and going to be sure to be ready to address with a combination of the big dynamic risk german cottage, the gift capacity to compromise,

and to withdraw all the accesses that we have become accustomed to in all these institutional domains. now uh, you also wrote about the fact that while um, sort of the dynamics or the tactics of various parties seem to be the same. people's ability to learn about that. and you know, the, the open this to public exposure of what's going on is different in 2022 in 2023. but it's one thing for the public to know what's going on. and it's another thing to have the mac can is to actually change the situation. what, whether to the courts or through uh, public voting. i'm particularly interested about the legal system of practice done what role hasn't been playing in either montane these old dynamic or resisting it. i'm trying to, i will take the liberty of pre, facing my humble opinion about the going into different aspect by pointing out that

elections in another sense will not be conclusively representative of public opinion. because in my view, in a country where on the average only 50 percent of the people take the proper vote off of the populations, political views will not be represented in the outcome. and as it is due to the absurdity of the 1st past, the post system, a body or a candidate who sick yours only 10 or 15 percent of the vote becomes the a toddler t for the next 5 years. which is obviously not a non representative. and yet elected form of government. and those contradictions will also come to the senators, those hours, addictions, existing, any democratic system, don't they? i mean, this is something that they've kind of do away with the weekend because as i have been suggesting for some years now, we should introduce the concept of compos city booking,

which is practiced by over 20 countries. that's it. let me turn to the question that you pause, which is the role of the legal sector that you just showed sector. the nutritional sector has had a very mixed record, you know, is at some points they have given very negative decisions, which i don't believe pre inter bench on the other. they have tried to read dress a boss mistakes by declaring that any intervention any disruption of the constitutional process is going to be illegitimate, and therefore capable of be prisoners. only general setup was accused of present. his upbeat is still pending and the supreme court. what knowledge seems to be likely to happen is that in the middle of september, we will have a new chief justice who is already acquired the reputation for being very outspoken

or being very progressively supportive of the democratic one situation of process and not been doing any good, unconstitutional intervention, but instead your is only going to be for one. yeah. and it depends what happens after that one year. indeed, for example, it's just possible that doing that. can you all the bench whichever the constituents of the quarter, the what we dig some very important decisions. one of the deals for justice, especially for the party that has be walter. dr. boss, is it for trinity, trinity to lead by the former prime minister dot com? now can i ask you something and correct me if i'm wrong here because i think i may have an overly idealistic view. uh, but it seems to be the package that it would have uh would be giving extra credence to the concept of legality because uh,

on the professional background or all of your founder will come up. that'd be janelle, who was a very talented barrister and for whole as far as i can gather the concept of truth and dedication to your country, to the service of, of your country related concepts. and one can see, do not support your is everywhere. impact is sent to this day, but i wonder if the spirit and connecting choose authenticity with the service to your country. whether that sort of attitude is still a life in the present, the moon, government officials. what's a good reference to the minute vista? jenna is worthy of respect or 2 things. number $14.00 would truly sing good ended, be outreaching out the new building, the british and the congress. a party of india which bitterly oppose the creation of factory stock. and the ultimate, you would at least 5 of the most slim organizations of

$31947.00, which also oppose the creation of focused on march, which has now become the custodians are not only parties sign, but of this snobbish. so it's not but the way they have done that. so just a general was truly the picture of it or how and on divided focus on the tools and on justice can be given concrete shape. the way that the supreme court and the legal sector in the country can rise to that level. is an open question. yes, i think and in practical terms, sometimes the legal and the judicial sector have shown the will and the capacity to rise to put example oppose. the i'll be pretty dismissive of the chief justice of pakistan when jillian was shut up, was in power as does and to

a very stand lawyer of mine. the chief justice was restored to office and that they've done that to another crisis. so at some point, you should be showing that capacity to stand up for the troops ad. there are other instances where it has stepped in and a pretty good the cause, and yet on the other, they frequently laps and don't take the time, not doing that but. and they give it to the shadow of the rope altogether, t or interpreting the law in a certain measure. well, uh, sanitary, i guess we will have to wait and see. and for the time being taken very short break, but we will be back in just

a few seconds extension the, [000:00:00;00] the, the museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a loss to future generations. but our fiscal museums, placing themselves a relic of the past, this is one of the best museums in the world, the human touch in saint petersburg and help proceeds the director here. and i bet he has met the

welcome back to the parts of the venture bar for my talk, his time is senator federal minister and also a sen. just before the break, we mentioned the name of mohammed that'd be, janelle was also very mindful of a deep hole on isaac practiced on both mentally and culturally from foreign influences. in my introduction, i mentioned the pakistan happens to be a very important um regional player. uh, baldwin into the various intricate, uh, power play in asia. and i wonder if uh, in your opinion of those power struggles that we have been discussing and that has been plaguing uh, practice done over the last year and a half has anything to do with the brother. uh, external geo political competition. you're quite right to ask that question because the very physical location of pakistan, even after the tenant,

but just sent to creation of the country and 1971 that remains extremely vivid to in terms of global geo strategic dimensions. it's placement at the cost of treat major agents, sophie, issue central asia and risk issue with access to the c. so what has been happening if i could stop, can be partly linked to what the major global bond have been contesting with each other for space for influence for him back. one of them is not a global by its neighbor, and i'm not just pointing the finger in. yeah, because i don't like in the old. i hated deal whatever. i respect the people it up in the it's a great civilization to do it after the industrial spot. cassandra presents a very simple i vision, but from the word go,

an artist on his head to be extremely careful about the influence of the online ones, the india mex from time to time with other pods. at one time, india was very closely aligned with the soviet union, and we had to therefore, as every action seek country support. because india had publicly declared its ministers, they've said boxes that should not last more than 6 months now in a country as vulnerable as we will. we do rigs divided by a 1000 miles of australia. debbie, we would like to become members of a defense patch led by the usa and big fortunately of the seventy's, we withdrew from both of those alliances and join. been on a line. oh, i mean, well, all the pursuing a very uh, pretty independence foreign policy. as of uh, the last couple of years and i have to say that i was one of the last 4 and your

newest, your interview and brought home before. so you travel to restaurant. uh, something that has given rise to speculations that uh his um they both of no confidence against him that remove him from power may have been instigated by the american officials. and i know that some of those allegations or speculations at this point are being considered in the pakistan of course. but do you find this plausible, do find something like this, knowing the structure or the covers implants as within they packed, assigning politics. do think that something like this could be possible without reading too much into that. i just want to be fist my response by pointing out to you folks, i know that middle of 5060 years ago, at your time going to be with a member of the communist batch lodge, the emd against the soviet union. we also became the 1st country of the world to

open up an international link with communist china b j, and be signed an agreement with them in 1962. so focused on the diplomacy to a great credit as showing the capacity to manage a very delicate balancing act while maintaining relations with both communist countries and the risk. now in this case, in the year 2022 brand new rob kind of decided to visit moscow. the intention was not to condone or support any action that bless y'all may take a visit. we ukraine. well, you have no way of knowing that point that i have enough for the fab seduce me. absolutely, and therefore therefore it, it's a completely flaw deduction, that the restaurant analysts a, made a blaming involved the con for being there on that day when that decision was

sticking. it was not his responsibility. and since then, yes, a very strange sequence of events took place and there is that camp dish and to link is removed from office directly to the corporate plans of washington d. c. however, i would add a caviar. why is it was certainly the most upset with the blog cons visit to moscow? i think by then a block on him said had india dated many segments of the 4 digit for the spectrum. and instead of became very valuable. chad and he did not detect in time. what would have been done to prevent that lot of confidence and in the middle of the drug cab this very strange uh cipher cable from washington on the box signing invested during a conversation that he had with

a u. s senior government proficient and that came up wisconsin to publicize recently by the us outlet. it was very clear that the us government was not happy with the government to be about con, and that it would probably be f p a. if another government know that is a very clear indication, regardless of whether they then could you do with certain members of parliament or political leaders and box them, i don't think they did. i would not attribute it to that, but that was giving a signal. and you can send a cipher, sorry, you didn't send the site for our diplomats and decipher, but a foreign government can communicate it's preferences to countries for digital leadership in many ways that need not be a bit to. they can be robber. they can be the sector, they can be symbolic, but the due respect. uh let. let's pause here for, for a moment because you speak about that as if it's, you know,

something would seem that a foreign government, let's say your united states government would communicate its preference as governmental preferences for who should lead um, you know, another country and such a laser for fashion, it may seem that it's, it's okay, but it's not. i mean, according to the, to spell your following father. uh, we mentioned a couple of times already. it was not okay, that was the reason why she wanted to establish uh, the state of pakistan so that your people can exercise their own silver and right into to pursue that own destiny. is it okay? that's really even such a global environment when the american officials evenly met in these uh, you know, a somewhat comfortable yeah. yeah. no. can i, i mean i agree with you a diety. i mean, the overbuild made by that of the people like a song, have all of these images. i'm due for an influence on our policy and they're

focused on the us are key because the us is a major noble for us. but it also has played a critical going to different points. it barks on state street, and we have a speed do added to your relationship with the united states on the one that we h, the cover intervention, or even the all word signs. on the other hand, because of estrada the cultural english language in trade business connections with the west housing, pakistani, tens of thousands of parks on these have family members living in the united states . we have a strong trade relationship on a problem not just explore. market is the usa, n o b receive any benefits from the us. so it's so many do or the stick relationship that we have. we have to acknowledge it, that the, you know, the, the just phone, but i scholarship program in the wood offered by the us is to pack this on east

partners. so that's one example of how our cosign has been due to benefit while it is empty. this influence on practiced on the general public schools yet, can i ask you one last question about that because our time is running out. but i really like the term that you port coined to describe the current state of affairs, talk to somebody. i think it also applies more broadly. the term, your coins is a partial law of which is not neither exclusively martial nor ethically civil. and it combines these politicized use of it off here with the selective justice and it your, you've been a very active advocate for, you know, people taking a hold of the own future. and the, you know, rather than invested interest determining how the country is supposed to develop, where is the starting point for bringing to the about how can we actually as a global community,

how can we truly arrive at this point where governments will indeed be care taking and taking care of people's needs rather than vested or institutional interest. that's to, uh, we're trying to, i think it really required the emergence of visionary, but it just need to shift bought in the 7th quarter to credit rather than add in the minute treatment. and then i said the minute treat rather because the military doesn't want it doesn't lift, it's cheaper, bobby stop and it stop generous. it's all internally done. or of course the prime minister of the country approves the appointment of the chief of bobby's stop. now, on the part, the previous chief of bobby's job video cottage in the, in the stomach about security died off of it for 2020 to publicly stated that in order to face the new realities of the 21st century and the challenges impact in

stock basis the parkside army has the bed, it strategy to reduce its human stress not to weaken the capacity for defense, but to rationalize it and to make it more effective. now that shows the willingness of the army to face the already i left you. i know the cutting cheaper if i'm east out as the to reach it. that is all to be consistent in the willingness or the desire not to interfere in the particular process. however, on the ground that has to be given beach and flesh and blood, not in a destructive sense, but in a sense, a pin number that you as going by the past, the box that army has produced cheap. so if i'm you stop, go have it stand. we have deliberately, it's jan from corner to go to intervention. it will generally when he talks it,

it'd be 199394 period there with john you said how much a board participation in the good process. so if the army has that capacity is a proven capacity, and the civil political leadership should, as sex circuits legitimize modern, will it take the right to provide leadership by building its own capacity and not assigning responsibility for all the security policies you play or weapons policies it to the ministry by center and during that use trend, the institutions undue influence in the foreign policy process or the security area, which is cost jointly shared responsibility. and so it can be done well, i'm can be done and therefore i look forward to that. yeah. i'm also looking forward to the then the, so only want to add the image on hand didn't look like somebody who was eager to surrender. she is the responsibility in those domains. and yet the,

he's political troubles are still in going. but uh, you know, history is the ultimate jobs, so all the best that's back is done and thank you very much for joining us today. thank you for asking. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to see her again on the world's a part the,

the, the, [000:00:00;00] the easier stop poor orders. the frank and basset are to be expelled from the country as thousands, flood the streets of the capital, demanding press groups also lead. meanwhile, francis spends its military cooperation with the bond after the central african state is also shaken by a military coup. locals tell us what they think of the latest event. for 64 years. we've had just one received the regime that hasn't pressed us. they