the good thing that you are receiving is on the final weight, they're moving out because they have faith in their mission. and that was why do i need this surveillance of oil? so how about i and you said in the constitution that there are things that are better than sir, i mean, because the fusion back now we are finding a situation where the police or he says this sonya is, wasn't forced to be. and joining that, this the vs out of see now that i get into c, v, then the why do you know way those are fighting doesn't mean come use strong. we sold that video to 50. you tell me kind of ways of visa and you also ended up that offer now, but be sure to check out our t dot com for the latest on everything happening around the world. thanks for joining and don't go far. my colleague, nicky aaron, will be taking over at the top of the hour the,

[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to the part history and doesn't repeat itself, but it often brian's and the mark twain were alive today. you might have added particularly saw in practice on the world's 5th most populous country, has long found itself at the crossroads of the regional and global politics, which has made internal power struggles, old and more intense. whereas is lama, but likely to be up to the current political and legal crisis and also discuss it. i'm now and join bunch of ed jabbar, former practice time is sen,

federal minister and also and senator jabar. it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. is my pleasure. thank you very much. weight by to now talk a stones politics has never been particularly adult, but i think you would agree with me that the sequence of events, or which began with the ousting or the removal from power. all the former prime minister in runtime. it is not petering out and it's draining the country's resources. it's taking away attention from other pressing social challenges. i'm sure there are lots and lots of factors contributing to these dynamic. but what do you think is the chief one china? what has happened since april 2022, in a sense, is that all the chickens, the chickens of contradictions and distortions that monica street have come home to roost in the past succeed to 17 months,

which is not to in any way underestimate or under value. the profundity of the crisis that we are going through, but only to suggest that this is the outcome of it. it started the process by which we have tended to allow institutional distortions within our system distortion that has resulted in an in balance between nitro, save a treat. most of the state legislature, the executive and the judiciary. but that does not cover the 4th, which is the military. now the military and practice on this part of the executive . and yet it is a domain offered on barkley, because the civil political leadership over the past several decades a has constant be, but make it the sender of age on

a part of the domain. and partly because the ministry itself is it we and as a result of this mutual sandia to respect lives, the otter, gm's responsibility we are very, we are to do for the last 17 event. is one, sir? yes, i'm senator. i know that you have argued in your writing, but this is not the 1st time the attack is done, finds itself in, in inside situation. you wrote that the current events remind you of the conditions 33 years ago when the 1st cabin. and by the 1st female moslin prime minister of their put to was dissolved also under a seemingly legal pre taxes. what are the single averages there? the similarities here that as in 1990 there was a confusion between the ministry and the then the civil political process. that good news is there. however,

there is one major difference as that drive the hill street. oh really good, significant paula is not present in the year 2023 back office has been a mess you later. it's positive been removed and it has become really a saturday morning enforced. however, that vacuum has been more than made up by the extraordinary strands and in fact that the ministry has acquired with the consent of the 4 digit leadership. so that mocks in basic difference. however, the next is outages that there is conflict. they've got. there is a, this is a postponement which has not happened in that instance 33 years ago. this time would truly appreciate didn't generally be construct, you know, different nations or the time frame with the beach election should be have at the

federal level. and the provincial level that would be disregard and veterans drive . yeah. it didn't go in all most uncertain. mm hm. now, uh, as you have suggested in packs of kind of indians and contrivance are rarely very stable and the pakistan history has many examples of them falling apart. how long do you give the current crisis, despite all the delays and all the disregards of the sub scheduled for elections? and when do you think it will leave your country? but i see the future and it is on it is unwise to predict the future. but as far as i can see over the next the proceeds, 16 months, i see it happening and don't see is the 1st phase has to be the forwarding of elections. and it is growing a convergence and humanity even amongst 4 digit pin forces, even though one major part of that component does not yet agree to setting the time

limit as soon as possible, but they really come at all. now when that happens, it brings in the, in, pondered over with the elections will truly be free and that they just assumed that they will be free of that, that with the comments the next phase. because those who knows, i'm not going to necessarily accept the validity of the election. and therefore, or there are bound to be intrinsic challenges. both economic and political in structure that we will be inheriting and getting over from the past 3 or 4 years. those that aren't going to disappear, only because the election to be the head of many people are saying there's only elections and that's really, really solve the problem. i with respect and i'm really disagree. the basic institutional challenges the back and going to be, should be ready to address with

a combination of the big dynamic risk german cottage, the gift capacity to compromise, and to withdraw the excesses that we have become accustomed to in all these institutional demands. now uh, you also wrote about the fact that while um, sort of the dynamics or the tactics of various parties seem to be the same. people's ability to learn about that. and, you know, the, the openness to public exposure of what's going on is different in 2022 in 2023. but it's one thing for the public to know what's going on. if it's another thing to have the mechanisms to actually change the situation, what, whether to the courts or through uh, public voting. i'm particularly interested about the legal system of practice done what role hasn't been playing in either montane these uh old dynamic or resisting

it. i'm trying to, i will take the liberty of pre, facing my humble opinion about the going to the different aspect by pointing out that elections in another sense will not be conclusively representative of public opinion. because in my view, in a country where on the average only 50 percent of the people take the traveler or off of the populations, political views will not be represented in the outcome. and as it is due to the absurdity of the 1st past, the post system, a body or a candidate will sick yours only 10 or 15 percent of the vote becomes the a toddler t for the next 5 years, which is obviously not non representative. and yet elected form of government. and those contradictions will also come to the senators, those hours, addictions exist in any democratic system, don't they? i mean,

this is something that they've kind of do away with the weekend because as i have been suggesting for some years now, we should introduce the concept of composed city voting, which is practiced by over 20 countries. that's it. or let me turn to the question that you pause, which is the role of the, the good sector that you addition sector. the nutritional sector has had a very mixed record, you know, is at some point they have given very negative decisions, which i don't believe pre inter bench on the other. they have tried to re dress a boss mistakes by declaring that any intervention, any disruption of the constitutional process is going to be legitimate. and therefore capable of be prisoners. only general will shut up, was accused of present. his appeal is still pending and the supreme court,

what knowledge seems to be likely to happen is that in the middle of september, we will have a new chief justice who is already acquired the reputation for being very outspoken or being very progressively supportive of the democratic fonts, situation of process and not been doing any good, unconstitutional intervention, but instead yard is only going to be for one. yeah. and it depends what happens after that one year. indeed, for example, you just possible the doing that. can you all the bench whichever the constituents of the quarter, the who will dig some very important decisions. one of the deals for justice, especially for the party that has be walter. dr. boss, is it for trinity, trinity to lead by the farmer bank the district about now? can i ask you something and correct me if i'm wrong here because i think i may have

an overly idealistic view. but is this to be the practice on would have, would be giving extra credence to the concept of legality because on the professional background or all of your founder will come up. that'd be janelle, who was a very talented barrister and for whole as far as i can gather the concept of truth and dedication to your country, to the service of, of your country related concepts. and one can see, do not support your is everywhere in pakistan to this day. but i wonder if the spirit and connecting choose authenticity with the service to your country. whether that sort of attitude is still a life of the present, the moon, government officials. what's a good reference to a minute? mr. jenna is worthy of respect or 2 things. number $14.00 would truly sing good and didn't be outreaching out the new building. the british and the congress,

a party of india, which bitterly oppose the creation of factory stock, and the ultimate new word. at least 5 of the most slim organizations of $31947.00, which also oppose the creation of focused on march, which have now become the custodians are not only practiced on but of this snobbish . so it's not but the way they have done that. so just a general was truly the picture of it, of how and on divided focus on the tools and on justice can be given concrete shape. the way that the supreme court and the legal sector in the country can rise to that level. is an open question. yes, i think and in practical terms, sometimes the legal and the duty shall set to have shown the will and the capacity to rights to put example oppose the i'll be pretty dismissive of the chief justice

of pakistan. when jillian was shut up was in power as does and to a very stand lawyer is more money. the chief justice was restored to office and that they've done that to another crisis. so at some point, you should be as showing that capacity to stand up for the troops ad. there are other instances where it has stepped in and a good a good the cause and yet on the other, they frequently laps and don't take is the top notch gone, don't know, but, and the give it to the shadow of the hope of legality or interpreting the law in a certain matter. well, senator, i guess we will have to wait and see and for the time being take a very short break, but we will be back in just

a few seconds. section the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to the parts of the venture bar for my pakistan is senator federal

minister officer sen. just before the break, we mentioned the name of mohammed, that'd be janelle, who was also very mindful of a deep hole on isaac, practiced on both mentally and culturally from foreign influences. in my introduction, i mentioned the pakistan happens to be a very important regional player. uh, baldwin into the various intricate, uh, power play in asia. and i wonder if uh, in your opinion of those power struggles that we have been discussing and that has been plaguing uh, practice done over the last year and a half has anything to do with the brother uh, external geo political competition. you'll what tried to ask that question because the very physical location of focused on, even after the care of it, just sent to creation of the country and 1971 that remains extremely vivid to

in terms of global geo strategic dimensions. it's placement at the cost of treat major agents, sophie, issue central asia and risk issue with access to the c. so what has been happening in the bucket stop can be partly linked to what the major global 5 have been contesting with each other for space for influence. what impact one of them is not a global by its neighbor. and i'm not just pointing the finger to india because i don't like in deal or i can deal whatever i respect the people of india. it's a great civilization that they have present dustin's pocket sondra presents the greatest the black vision. but from the word go, the artist on his head to be extremely careful about the influence of the

online ones, the india mex from time to time with other pods. at one time, india was very closely aligned with the soviet union. and we had to therefore, as every action a seat on pretty support because india had publicly declared its ministers. they've said, fuck is that should not last more than 6 months. now you're in a country as vulnerable as be, well, we do rings divided by a 1000 miles of australia. debbie, we would like to become members of a defense patch led by the usa and big fortunately of the seventy's, we withdrew from both of those alliances and joined the non line. oh, i mean, well, all also pursuing a very uh, pretty independence foreign policy. as of uh, the last couple of years and i have to say that i was one of the last 4 and your newest, your interview and brought home before. so you travel to restaurant. uh,

something that has given rise to speculations that uh his um they both of no confidence against him that remove him from power may have been instigated by the american officials. and i know that some of those allegations or speculations at this point are being considered and be practiced on, of course. but do you find these plausible, do find something like this, knowing the structure or the covers implants as within they practice on a politics? do think that something like this could be possible without reading too much into that. i just want to be fixed my response by pointing out to you folks, i know that middle of 5060 years ago, at your time going to be with a member of the communist batch lodge, the emd against the soviet union. we also became the 1st country of the word to open up an international link with communist china beasley and be signed an

agreement with them in 1962. so focused on the diplomacy to its great credit, as showing the capacity to manage a very delicate balancing act, while maintaining relations with both communist countries and the rich. now, in this case, in the year 2022 brand new broadcom decided to visit moscow, the intention was not to condone or support any action that bless y'all may take a visit we ukraine while he is, you have no way of knowing that point that i know for the fab seduce me? absolutely, and therefore, therefore, it, it's a completely flaw. deduction, that the restaurant analysts a, made a blaming involved the con for being there on that day when that decision was sticking. it was not, is responsibility. and since then, yes, a very strange sequence of events took place and there is that temp dish and to

link is removal from office directly to the cupboard brands of washington dc. however, i would add a caviar. why is it was certainly most upset with the blogs cons visit to moscow? i think by then it brought con, him said had india dated many segments of the 4 digit for the spectrum. and instead of became very valuable. chad and he did not detect in time. what would have been done to prevent that lot of confidence and in the middle of your drawing to give this very strange uh, cipher cable from washington on the park, sending a message to new, reaching a conversation that you had with a us senior government professional. i havent that came up wisconsin to publicize recently by us outlet. it is very clear that the us government was not happy

with the government to be able to con, and that it would probably be f p a. if another government know that is a very clear indication, regardless of whether they then uh could you do with certain members of parliament or political leaders and bucks on. i don't think they did. i would not active duty for that. but that was giving a signal and you can send a cipher, sorry you didn't send the site or are diplomats and decipher, but a foreign government can communicate it's preferences to countries for digital leadership. in many ways that need not be a big time. they can be rubber, they can be cetera. they can be symbolic. but the senator with all due respect. uh let, let's pause here for, for a moment because you speak about that as if it's, you know, something would seem that the foreign government, let's say you're united states, government would communicate it's preferences,

governmental preferences for who should read, you know, another country and such a laser for fashion, it may seem that it's, it's okay, but it's not. i mean, according to the, to spell your founding father. uh, we mentioned a couple of times already. it was not okay, that was the reason why she wanted to establish the state of pakistan. so that your people can exercise their own silver and right into to pursue that own destiny. is it okay? that's really even such a global environment when the i'm american officials evenly met in these uh, you know, somewhat comfortable or not. yeah. no, can i, i mean i agree with you a diety. i mean, the overbuild me body of the people of focused on have all these images and do foreign influence on our policy. and they have focused on the us are key because the us is a major noble for us. but it also has played

a critical role at different points it box onto the street. and we have a speed to add it to your relationship with the united states. on the one that we h, the cover intervention, or even the all word signs on the other hand because it's starting to try to english language and create a business connection is with the west housing, dropbox hasanti, tens of thousands of focused on these have family members living in the united states, we have a strong trade relationship and not just explore the market is the usa, n o b receive any benefits from the us. so it, so many do are the stick relationship that we have. we have to acknowledge it, that the, you know, the, the law just phone, but i scholarship program is the word offered by the us is to pakistani sponder. so that's one example of how our cosign has been due to benefit while his intake, this influence on park is dogs in general, public schools yet,

can i ask you one last question about that? because our time is running out. but i really like the term that you port coined to describe the current state of affairs practice on. but i think it also applies more broadly. the charm your coins is a partial law of which is not neither exclusively martial nor ethically civil. and they combine these politicized use of it off here with the selective justice and in your you've been a very active advocate for, you know, people taking a hold of the old future. and, you know, rather than invested in for determining how the country is supposed to develop, where is the starting point for bringing to the about how can we actually as a global community, how can we truly arrive at this point where governments will indeed be care taking and taking care of people's needs rather than vested or institutional interest.

that's to, uh, try to, i think it really required the emergence of visionary, but they just need to ship bought in the 74 digit code rather than add in the ministry that. and then i said, the ministry read because the military doesn't want it doesn't lift, it's cheaper, bobby stopped and it stop generous. it's on internally done. or of course, the prime minister of the country approves the appointment of the cheaper bobby. stop now on the car, the previous chief of bobby's job video cottage in the, in the summer about security dialogue. it for 2022 obviously stated that in order to face the new realities of the 21st century and the challenges and parts in stock bases, the parkside army has the bed. it strategy to reduce its human strength not to weaken the capacity for defense,

but to rationalize it and to make it more effect. you know, that shows the willingness of the army to face new realities. i know the cutting chief of armies stop as the to reach it. that is all to be consistent in the willingness or the desire not to interfere in the particular process. however, on the ground that has to be given beach and flesh and blood, not in a destructive sense, but in a sense of gender between n going by the past, the box that army has produced cheap. so if i'm you stop, we have stand. we have deliberately, it's jan from corner to go to bench. it will generally what he talks, it, it'd be 199394. be there with john. you said i'm a a board participation in the 4 digit good process. so if the army has the capacity

is approved, wouldn't get passage and the civil war, digital leadership, true as such as circuits. and they just came back martin, will you take the right to provide leadership by building its own capacity and not assigning responsibility for all the security policies, nuclear weapons, policies it to the ministry by sending that use trend, the institutions and view improvements in the foreign policy process or is the security area which is cost is jointly shared responsibility. and so it can be done well, i'm can be done and therefore i look forward to that. yeah, i'm also looking forward to the then the address of only want to add the image on hand didn't look like somebody who was eager to surrender. she is the responsibility and those domains. and yet the just political troubles are still in going. but uh, you know, history is the ultimate drive, so all the best uh,

its back is done and thank you very much for joining us today. thank you for asking . thank you. i'm thank you for watching. i hope to see her again on the world's a part, the,

the, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, the jazz top who does the french on boston to be expelled from the country to 1000, split the straight for the capital, the loan thing french troops hold for me. meanwhile, frogs, that suspends its military cooperation with the phone of to the central african state, is also shaken by us military to locals. toddlers will basically put the lakers to bed for 64 years. we've had just one review. the regime