doom and gloom and even mocking headlines popping up everywhere and with inflation staying high across europe. and in some cases, even accelerating, there's really no end in sight to the cost of living crisis for europeans who bear the brunt of all of this. it up like stocks on a boy co has the latest episode of welds a pod and i'll be back with the rest of the news team in 30 minutes. the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the welcome to the part history and doesn't repeat itself, but it often drives and the mark twain were alive today. you might have added, particularly saw in practiced on the walls. 5th most populous country has long found itself at the crossroads of the regional and global politics, which has made internal power struggles, old and more intense. whereas is lama but likely to be up to the current political and legal crisis and also discuss it. i'm now and join bunch of ed jabbar, former pakistan is sen, federal minister and also sen jabbar. it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. it's my pleasure. thank you very much. weight by to now talk a stones politics has never been particularly adult, but i think you would agree with me that the sequence of events, or which began with the ousting or the removal from power. all the former prime minister,

amber on how it is not petering out and it's draining the countries resources, it's taking away attention from other pressing social challenges. i'm sure there are lots and lots of factors contributing to these dynamic. but what do you think is the chief one kind of what has happened since april 2022, in a sense, is that all the chickens, the chickens of contradictions and distortions. zip monica is street have come home to roost in the past 6217 months, which is not to in any way under this debate, or under value, the profundity of the crisis that we are going through. but the only to suggest that this is the outcome of it. it started the process by which we have tended to allow institution or distortions within our system. distortion. that

as it is actually then in balance between nitro, save, of treat, most of this fit the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. but that does not cover the false appearing, which is the military. now the military and practice on this part of the executive . and yet it is a domain offered on barkley because the civil political leadership over the past several decades a has constant b, but method, the sender pitched on a part of the domain. and partly because the ministry itself, as it read and as a result of this mutual sandia to respect, lives for a totter, gm's responsibility we are very, we are to do for the last 70 event. is one, sir? yes and senator, i know that you have argued in your writing, but this is not the 1st time the attack is done, finds itself in, in,

in such situation. you wrote the current events remind you of the conditions 33 years ago when the 1st cabin and by the 1st female moslin prime minister of their put to was dissolved also under a seemingly legal pre taxes. what are the similarities there? the similarities here which as in 1990 there was a could you imagine between the ministry and the then the civil political process. that good news is there. however, there is one major difference and that drive the hill street. oh, really good, significant follow up is not present in the year 20. 23 dec office has been a mess you later. it's positive been more and it has become really a saturday morning enforced. however, that vacuum has been more than made up by the extraordinary strands and in fact

that the ministry has acquired with the consent of the 4 digit leadership. so that mocks in basic difference. however, the next is that it gets that there is conflict. they've got, there is a delay, there's a postponement, which has not happened in that instance 33 years ago. this time would truly appreciate objectively be construct, you know, different nations or the time frame did. which election should be here at the federal level. and the provincial levels have been disregard and veterans arrived yet. it didn't go in almost sunset. now, uh, as you have suggested in packs of convenience and contrivance are rarely very stable and the pakistani history has many examples of them falling apart. how long do you give the current crisis, despite all the delays and all the disregards of the sub schedule for elections?

and uh, when do you think it will leave your country? but i see the future and it is on it is unwise to predict the future. but as far as i can see over the next, the 16 months, i see it happening and don't see is, is the 1st phase has to be the forwarding or evictions. and it is growing a convergence and humanity even amongst the 4 digit pin forces. even though one major part of that component does not yet agree to setting the time limit as soon as possible, but they really come at all. now when that happens, it brings in the, in bonded, over with the elections will truly be free and bet. let's just assume that they will be free a bit. that will then come into the next phase. because those who knows, i'm not going to necessarily accept the validity of the election. and therefore,

there are bound to be intrinsic challenges, both economic and political in structure that we will be inheriting and getting over from the past 3 or 4 years. those that aren't going to disappear, only because the election to be the head of many people are saying there's only elections and that's really, really solve the problem. i with respect and i'm really disagree. the basic institutional challenges the back and going to be sure to be ready to address with a combination of the big dynamic risk driven coverage. uh the gift capacity to compromise and to withdraw the accesses that we have become accustomed to in all these institution advantage. now uh, you also wrote about the fact that while um, sort of the dynamics or the tactics of various parties seem to be the same.

people's ability to learn about that. and you know, the, the openness to public exposure, what's going on is different in 2022 in 2023. but it's one thing for the public to know what's going on. and it's another thing to have the mechanisms to actually change the situation of what, whether the courts or through uh, public voting. i'm particularly interested about the legal system of practice done what role hasn't been playing in either montane these uh, old dynamic or resisting it. i'm trying to, i will take the liberty of piercing my humble opinion about the going into your different aspect by pointing out that elections in another sense will not be conclusively representative of public opinion. because in my view, in a country where on the average only 50 percent of the people take the proper vote off of the populations political views,

it will not be represented as the outcome. and as it is due to the absurdity of the 1st past, the post system, a body or a candidate who secures only 10 or 15 percent of the vote becomes the a toddler, t for the next 5 years. which is obviously not a non representative. and yet elected form of government. and those contradictions will also come to the senators, those colleges, addictions, existing, any democratic system don't they? i mean, this is something that they've kind of do away with the weekend because as i have been suggesting for some years now, we should introduce the concept of composed city voltage, which is practiced by over 20 countries. that said, let me turn to the question that you port, which is the role of the, the good sector that you just showed sector. the additional sector has had

a very mixed record in not is at some point they have given very negative decisions . whichever kind of dawned ability, inter bench on the other, they have tried to re dress a boss mistakes by declaring that any intervention, any disruption of the constitutional process is going to be legitimate and therefore capable of be present. this only general setup was excused to present his appeal to still pending in the supreme court. what knowledge seems to be likely to happen is that in the middle of september, we will have a new chief justice who is already acquired the reputation for being very outspoken or being very progressively supportive of the democratic fun situation of process and not doing any good unconstitutional intervention,

but instead yard is only going to be for one. yeah. and it depends what happens after that one year. indeed for example, you just possible the doing that. can you all the bench whichever the constituents of the quarter, the whole, we dig some very important decisions. one of the deals for justice, especially for the party that has been watered out of office. it for trinity, trinity to lead by the farmer bank, the district about now can i ask you something and correct me if i'm wrong here because i think i may have an overly idealistic view, but it seems to be the practice on would have would be giving extra credence to the concept of legality, because on the professional background or all of your founder will come up. that'd be janelle, who was a very talented barrister and for whole as far as i can gather the concept of truth and dedication to your country, to the service of,

of your country related concepts. and one can see, do not support your is everywhere in pakistan to this day. but i wonder if the spirit and connecting choose authenticity with the service to your country. whether that sort of attitude is still a life of the present, the moon, government officials. what's a good reference to the minute vista jenna, is worthy of respect or 2 things. number $14.00 would truly sing good ended, be outreaching out the new building, the british and the congress. a party of india which bitterly oppose the creation of factory stock and the ultimate new word. at least 5 of the most slim organizations of $31947.00, which also oppose the creation of focused on march, which have now become the custodians are not only practiced on but of islam, etc. it's not but the way they have done that. so just

a general was truly the picture of it, of how and on divided focus on the tools and on justice can be given concrete shape that the supreme court and the legal sector in the country can guys to that level. is an open question? yes, i think and in practical terms, sometimes the legal and the judicial sector have shown the will and the capacity to write to put example oppose. the i'll be pretty dismissive of the chief justice of pakistan when janet was shut up, was in power as president and to a very stand lawyer as well. my. the chief justice was restored to office and that they've done that to another crisis. so at some points did you do should be showing that capacity to stand up for the truth. and there are other instances where the test step did and

a pretty good the cause. and yet on the other, they frequently lapse. and because don't take the time, not doing that, and they give it to the shuttle or the milk altogether to you or interpreting the law in a certain measure. well, uh, center. i guess we will have to wait and see. and for the time being taken very short break, but we will be back in just a few seconds extension the, the,

the welcome back to the parts of the venture bar for my talk is done as sen, federal minister, and also a sen just before the break we mentioned the name of mohammed ali, jeanette, who was also very mindful of a deep hole on isaac, practiced on both mentally and culturally from foreign influences. in my introduction, i mentioned that pakistan happens to be a very important regional player. baldwin into the various intricate power play in asia, and i wonder if in your opinion, those power struggles that we have been discussing and that has been plaguing uh,

practice done over the last year and a half has anything to do with a brother. uh, external geopolitical competition. you'll what try to boss that question because the very physical location of focused on, even after the care of it just sent to creation of the country in 1971 that remains extremely vivid to in terms of global geostrategic dimensions. it's placement at the cost of treat major agents, sophie, issue central asia and risk issue with access to the c. so what has been happening in fucking stop can be partly linked to what the major of the bugs have been contesting with each other for space, for the influence, what impact one of them is not

a global by its neighbor. and i'm not just pointing the finger in. yeah, because i don't that i can deal or i can deal whatever i respect the people it up in the it's a gripped civilization that they're not present dustin's pocket. sondra presented rich civilization. but from the word go, the artist on his head to be extremely careful about the influence of the online ones, the india mex from time to time. with other box at one time, india was very closely aligned with the soviet union. and we had to therefore, as every action a seat on pretty support because india had publicly declared its ministers, they've said boxes that should not last more than 6 months now in a country as vulnerable as be, well, we do rigs divided by a 1000 miles of australia, debbie, we would like to become members of defense,

pets led by the usa and big fortunately of the seventy's, we withdrew from both of those alliances and join. been on a line. oh, i mean, well, all the pursuing a very uh, pretty independence foreign policy. yeah. as of uh, the last couple of years and i have to say that i was one of the last 4 and journalist or interviewer and brought home before. so you travel to russia. something that has given rise to speculations that, uh his uh, they both of no confidence against him that remove him from power may have been instigated by the american officials. and i know that some of those allegations or speculations at this point are being considered in the practice time, of course. but do you find this plausible, do find something like this, knowing the structure or the covers implants as within the practice, tiny politics. do think that something like this could be possible without reading

too much into that. i just want to be fixed my response by pointing out to you folks, i know that middle of 5060 years ago, at your time going to be with a member of the communist batch lodge, the emd against the soviet union. we also became the 1st country of the world to open up an international link with communist china b j, and be signed an agreement with them in 1962. so focused on a diplomacy to its great credit, as showing the capacity to manage a very delicate balancing act, while maintaining relations with both communist countries and the rich. now, in this case, in the year 2022 brand new broadcom decided to visit moscow den shouldn't was not to condone or support any action that bless y'all may take reserve the ukraine while it is. you have no way of knowing that point. i know for

the fab seduce me. absolutely, and therefore, therefore it, it's a completely flaw. deduction, that the restaurant analysts a, made a blaming iraq con for being there on that day when that decision was sticking. it was not, is responsibility. and since then, yes, a very strange sequence of events took place and there is that camp dish and to link is removed from office directly to the corporate plans of washington dc. however, i would add a caviar. why is it was certainly the most upset with the blogs cons visit to moscow? i think by then it brought con him. so had india dated many segments of the 4 digit for the spectrum. and instead of became very valuable. chad and he did not detect

in time what would have been done to prevent that lot of confidence. and in the middle of the drug camp, this very strange uh cipher cable from washington. the park sent me a message during the conversation that you had with a u. s. senior government proficient. and that came up wisconsin to publicize recently by the us outlet. it was very clear that the us government was not happy with the government to be able to con, and that it would probably be f p a if another government know that is a very clear indication, regardless of whether they then uh could you do with certain members of parliament or political leaders and bucks on i don't think they did. i would not attribute kicked to that, but that was giving a signal. and you can send a cipher. sorry you didn't send the site or are diplomats and decipher. but a foreign government can communicate it's preferences to countries for digital

leadership in many ways that need not be a bit to they can be rubber or they can be cetera. they can be symbolic. but the senator with all due respect uh let, let's pause here for, for a moment because you speak about that as if it's, you know, something would seem that the foreign government, let's say you are united states government would communicate as preferences governmental preferences for who should lead um you know, another country and such a laser for fashion. it may seem that it's, it's okay, but it's not. i mean, according to the of the year following father. uh, we mentioned a couple of times already. it was not okay. that was the reason why she wanted to establish the state of pakistan so that your people can exercise their own silver and ride and trip to pursue that own destiny. is it okay? that's really even such a global environment when the american officials evenly met in these uh, you know,

a somewhat comfortable or not. yeah. no, can i, i mean, i agree with you a diety. i mean, the over really made by that of the people of focused on have all these images and do foreign influence on our policy. and they have focused on the us are key because the us is a major noble for us. but it also has played a critical role in a different points. it barks on state street, and we have a speed to add it to your relationship with the united states. on the one that we h, the cover intervention, or even the all word signs on the other hand because of his starting school culture, english language and create a business connection is with the west. housing park is funny. tens of thousands of parks on these have family members living in the united states. we have a strong trade relationship on a problem,

not just explore. market is the usa and we receive any benefits from the us. so it's so many do are list stick relationship that we have. we have to, it's nadia. that the, you know, the, the largest phone but i scholarship program is the word offered by the us is to practice on these partners. so that's one example. i'll talk this on has been due to benefit while does then take this influence on park is dogs in general, public schools yet? can i ask you one last question about that because our time is running out, but i really like the time that you port according to describe the current state of affairs practice on. but i think it also applies more broadly. the term, your coins is a partial law of which is not neither exclusively martial nor ethically civil. and they combine these politicized use of it off here with the selective justice and it, your, you've been a very active advocate for, you know, people taking

a hold of the old future. and, you know, rather than invested in for determining how the country is supposed to develop, where is the starting point for bringing to the about how can we actually as a global community, how can we truly arrive at this point where governments will indeed be care taking and taking care of people's needs rather than vested or institutional interest. that's to, uh, i'm trying to, i think it really required the emergence of visionary, but it just need to shift bought in the 7th. where did you find it? rather than add in the ministry that and then i said the ministry read because the military doesn't want it doesn't lift, it's cheaper, bobby stopped and it stop generous. it's on internally done. or of course, the private just drove the country up rules. the appointment of the cheaper vibe,

the stop now on the part the previous chief of bobby's job video cottage in the, in the summer about security dialogue. it for 2020 to publicly stated that in order to freeze the new realities of the 21st century and the challenges and parts in stock bases, the parkside army has the bed. it strategy to reduce its human strength not to weaken the capacity for defense, but to rationalize it and to make it more effect, you know, that shows the willingness of the army to face new realities. you know, the cutting cheaper balmy's stuff as the to reach it. that is all to be consistent in the willingness or the desire not to interfere in the particular process. however, on the ground that has to be given beach and flesh and blood,

not in a destructive sense, but in a sense of gender between the ad going by, the fast, the box that army has produced cheap. so from east all who have stand, we have deliberately, it's jan from corner to go to intervention there with generally when he talks it, it'd be 199394 period there with john you said i'm a a board participation in the good process. so if the army has that capacity is a proven capacity, and the civil political leadership should, as sex circuits legitimize modern, will it take the right to provide leadership by branding its own capacity and not assigning responsibility for all the security policies you play or weapons policies it to the ministry by sending during that use trend and institutions undue influence in the foreign policy process or the security area,

which is cost is jointly shared responsibility. and so it can be done well, i'm can be done. and therefore i look forward to that. yeah. i'm also looking forward to the then that i just only want to add the image on hand didn't look like somebody who was eager to surrender. she is the responsibility of those domains. and yet the, he's political troubles are still in going. but uh, you know, history is the ultimate jobs, so all the best that's back is done and thank you very much for joining us today. thank you for asking. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to see her again. on the worlds apart, the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the, the question i mean you clear up she was supposed to do most schools, if you look for them the initial do, while of course, significant dealer post on the deals can use the put body. what do you do origin, but you also still was done the newest frame on the belief systems to good you do what i see these the buses,

the little cute little dyson says, do some uh, tutorials on both of the the vision is top cold. old is the french of good to be a spells from the country, thousands club, the streets of the capital, demanding french troops also lead. meanwhile, from suspends its military cooperation with good bone off to a military coup, shakes the central african states locals. tell us what they think of relates to best for 64 years, we've had just one received. the regime that has oppressed us, they couldn't tell, has taken place,