across something ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, matthew errant. in montreal. he is a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian, he is founder and editor of the last american vagabond. and host of the daily wrap up. and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv correspondent, right job in cross lock, rolls and effects. that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, matthew, let me go to you 1st. so me, one of the things i find really fascinating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we, when we're, you currently ukraine will weigh new, crane is winning. we now, we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by importation, does that mean ukraine has one, save the business? this hold discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense. and it's not naming a lot of fraction, matthew and non true, your thoughts to be very short. that is what it is in imply,

implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic, a trick of soft the street. and, and the idea would be that if, if a, that's be, if there is indignation here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to continue, the sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past. but i think that it's wearing off very, very deeply right now is there's a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year really since the 1st days of the military intervention began, and, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations of europe and including the united states as well a destruction of ability to basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same

plate as they used to be. yeah. you know, ryan, um it was very interesting. last week. um robert f kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show and of course had any going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was remarkable. you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with when met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, i whole heartedly agree. and i think what's interesting, the, the, what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now, is this just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they're constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories

. well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think. and the truth is, as you're seeing. and that example is, you know, that they are asking these questions. and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers. and in regard to the original question, i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on, on myself, included that what's going on. and ukraine is predominantly about meyer in russia, into this endless engagement, the same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately you could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long ca operation before you know, in, in regard to a union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last. it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about you brain winning. i think we all see that it's a at x, that ukraine's expense just making sure rush of loses. and even then i still don't think that's even what's happening. but that's just, again, this is the narrative we want you to be spreading. yeah, it, it's,

it's very interesting. there's, they, they won't that maybe they'll, they'll make this unfounded claim that russia as last, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true johnny. one of the things, it's always interesting that any and even kind of, you know, media that is sympathetic to a, uh, a realist interpretation. but they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say that by didn't ministration or other administrations have made any mistake. is it maybe the drive to expand nato? is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead. johnny as well. yes. the sides. uh, keep each other miscalculation has lost them. is calculated. i think they, they close there will it be over by now? i think that they hope that they send the check some of the things around t a as opposed to trying to make a deal. i also suspect of us uh,

what about uh list if you like a possible outcomes and the nature of bully, back in the drain, in the amount of money. and they said that i think the lessons at noon, that's a possibility service. i think that's what i was able to now, but no to suspect as well. and so i, me, well, i knew well about the situation right now. but as he said, miscalculations by the west of the north, they house the sanctions of triple the russian economy. that hasn't happens a sections of how to do it more than they've had russia. and then there's an echo chamber, which politicians civil society john was living in the west. you can hardly pick up a newspaper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is, a blast of these things on shoot. i live in an echo chamber when they call themselves into thinking you create really, really count when this was. but since they found out the nature of his nature weaponry some by sophisticated rep renee, they've done like anything else they reach the bottom line. so i think the west has

massively miscalculated multiple times in this war. and as i say, as being ignored by the western media, you know, it's, it's such a good point. jenny, matthew. um are they, we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an off ramp. you hear that all the time, you know, i'm offering them from this here, but they, they never question. why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. and when you think that they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though,

unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and everything else to take care of and rush of pain, reparations, and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal then, and the international community is not supposed to or are told, we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time is we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd. russia is completely, is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards for falls since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do nailed down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times likes to be present skis, wet dream of the 198 late seventy's throughout the eighty's that uh,

that is not really there this time around back in the eighty's, the us was still relatively financially stable, whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're they're going forward in front of the idea is because they live with delusions, you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that, you know, the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic, it's very hollow, but it's more or less big and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. and so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all nobody in the west and power is willing to consider that ryan. i mean, i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or, or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people

. but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us government's been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that to, to demonstrate restraint, to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly in, in ukraine, but also with syria and then over overlapping that with the larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well, we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because they're being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with crimea by the way,

and they have said this publicly gets they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion of what the western media tries to sell to people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here. but you know, ryan brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don bats and never given any agency at whatsoever. it's really, it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break. john lee, i've got a lot of time and don't pass on and try me over the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people and don't bass and try me on a new one. to one of the boss of ukraine, and this is being census by the west, the media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit to so long as you can try me at once, be monitored russia, then you realize that, well, there is a people, there's an opportunity to abuse here. so if you realized on the box, well, it is after to the plate and gives off the top cheese. that's why people try me.

are people talking about the use of incenses? because it's by inconvenience, having all these people who do want to be part of russia, and i thought was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay, what gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with r t, the new media visa, stupid loyce law. here near to nancy kim's in the book. and that's just me very the the only showcase is use the so i'm just going into the ways that the boys, the

what would be the most name that'll be for them. i'm not sure if this slaughter doesn't want that. i faxed them. but the notes up under that the

i didn't even him dunbar foolish for that still and whistled nothing i used to be there on the 5th for the night as it is. but you can be a medical student fell in the front of the status and most recently stuff, which is set to the car executive. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do the have the state department c i a

weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do. don't watch my show state main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way inside the welcome x across stock. were all things are considered on peter level to remind you were discussing ukraine the okay, when to go back to johnny here in in moscow because it's ain't what you were saying right before the break. this soul jermaine and when western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bass in crimea. because, you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in,

it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it, then they denigrated speak to that for our audience, johnny a hey, uh, and this is why i spend so much time and try me with the boss because the menus should match. uh, if you listen to the opinions a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that almost new western journalist goes the cry me out on boss. why? because if they didn't go that they would have no choice. but to report this actually what i've been reporting the majority, once the motto, russia, it's just very convenient for me to get nbc. just let me uh, recently, uh, the device i'm looking for that i did and he was put on a famous ukrainian fitness. no, no on us for that, but most people use math. so what do you want to politically convenience, if people send these inconveniences that just ignore, often often estimate. so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people who don't pass and copy and some of those you and kind of thought i'd say it's more of a mix. the certainly more pretty creative and kind of in a dumbass,

still huge support for the russian stuff. so it's important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and that stuff to me is, is the beginning of peace. when, when we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well, maybe cry me and maybe a given don't want to join us. i think then you might see the quote moving towards up these producers is yeah, yeah it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me, when we, if we listen to people on the ground, you know, be before all of this started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine, if it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime. which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a piece candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. and i, i've on my project and maybe i'm in the minority right now. but this was a bridge too far for this alliance,

claiming itself that being defense. and i think we can see the end of nato as a result of this eventually, matthew, well, i think the, the viability of the institution, which, when, i mean a lot of it is largely loss of size all day. so well over 30 years ago. i but it has come to it is taking a huge hit obviously and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people on mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. you know, he is a jew, he's going to be an anti nazi candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh, and some form of a win win. the point of coexistence with russia and he spoke that we catered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet, that he always was simply biting his time and, and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh,

documentary series by scott ritter. um, but, but i think overall, you're right, the, the, i, the very institution of nato was become the russ before world war 3. nobody even a need a wants ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and, and it is with that losing its entire build of the carrier coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato was so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine, why he doesn't induct it. it doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know, um we heard at the very beginning of the conflict, then you'd be secretary defense. so this is about weakening russia. it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatry say about an a government that is using

their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, biden, in his joint press conference with the finish. president said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them in tomato until boot and pulls out. and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just give, put in the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said, isn't that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep rush admired here, because i ultimately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of the also have moved into what they really are the nazi you neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i gave you an operation,

aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's in the ukraine, and then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy and nazi of them. and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now it's absolutely we're going to once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say, let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what they're doing, what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know, john johnny is, it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is it particularly the left in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, no say because a lot of times the item is demoya things and they can support you great in the morning. so what you're going to be destroyed. i can do lessons to be quite happy

with the time should have already taken as long as nature continues to point to create impressions. most of the other people take it with us or talk of us in terms of the not. so you do not see elements, the system testing documentary for, for that was started by the guardian time magazine. yeah. advice to some, some good work. and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was never a whole when it will start. and some of the, even though it says john, even with, with, with allocation from the american congress, that was a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not in america american money. and that's been memory. hold still. ok. it's bought actually, if i go ahead, what can i do that on 2016 was when they originally said no, and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again in 2018, they added that they cannot, or they also have move and even indirectly. and now they currently are. so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it's, it seems to be very clear that this was about,

we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so are they new york times had this big expose a about the nazi problem and ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further to go depend on the all right article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in, in ukraine. it's really needs to be internal as here. i mean they, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore. matthew. yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw that recently b a d l even came out saying that the, well, you know, the as of battalion. yeah they're, they're bad. but now we support in the as of movement,

which is different. it's it's, it's mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so go, go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no, it's, it's, they can't avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works and it, people see this when you're, when you're trying to like fudge o, fletcher calculation. when you're doing some math problem, a little, a little error at the beginning, seems like something. is there a reason why the person who keep north is it just builds up and builds up a few steps down your. you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve. and they're there at that place and beyond that. and there's still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, the, the i've said very often in this program, the more the west tries to help ukraine, the smaller in smaller it gets okay. and if there is no honest interlocutor to speak to in the west, ukraine will get smaller. it's as simple as that, johnny. yeah,

absolutely. um. and that needs to be an offer on somewhere. i will say, potentially. good about lincoln's comment saying rosseters losing. ultimately. i mean it's, it's, it's, it's go hard to how the could you create an account, spencer's failings, a catastrophic place. but if nato is the end to peace negotiations as a business, jason's will be giving up the least giving on the time she left. she has taken, they're gonna have to sell it as of extra you credit is gonna auto, john and johnny. i already have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already, i came up with this a few months ago. at least who didn't make it to pair us. we won. that's how the salad. right. let me get right. let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan. a. hi. i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished. moment of bush just expert across the world, you know, it just so ridiculous how they can't be honest with the population even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things

that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a win, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know, i really demonstrates how we can desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion. well, i can write and just say continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public going to be in there many, and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a, glenn greenwald. they can, more than these kind of people. are they explain why empire is bad for the american people, but it's hard to get through that after what? 70 years of, of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right before we go to uh, before we finish up, go ahead. yeah, i completely agree. it's, it's, it's brain washing ultimately, and we see this with every,

every narrative we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative, with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it to more negative returns. they get gentlemen, that's all the time we have one to take my guess in montreal, franklin, and in moscow. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our t. so unix i'm and remember prospect rolls the the, the same wrong. just don't have to shape

out the application and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look so common ground the the the, the

russian states never is as tight as one of the most sense community best to him. then i'll send, send the same assistance to father speedy when else calls. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on russia cruising and supports the r t supposed neg, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for what question did you say stephen twist, which is the

interest to us so? so i was returning to peaceful life with the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukranian ssl according to intelligence ukrainian nationalists. and the ukranian intelligent ami said by real mind shall give each the joy to these atrocities. for future was the best hold of those going. what? but i senior to sell school knew what to do. i to be like this is all. who do i mean you one of those who the plaintiff was the head of the n k v d sabotage department at the time he was tasked with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for good reason, general sort of blonde. it was very familiar with the situation. he had experience finding the nationalist before the war, loveless to conquer a z a do it's a negative. so didn't know, could i e. but it was, well that's funny. so give me the task was tremendously difficult, but suit up a lot that was determined to complete as you had post while it comes to settle with

the ukrainian nationalist, the the, the black sea, greendale tops, a range of key international issues on the agenda. as russian president vladimir boone prepares to sit down with his turkish counterparts, president ardor want in a high level meeting. and so she, later today, mass protest the rest in the rocky city of curd costs as flashes between for the an era kill at least for people injuring over a 1000 more patio hose. the 1st african climate summit, as leaders gathers who present after it says united position on the climate crisis . locals believe the summit will help the continent to find its own independence solutions. so we did them, so yeah, discussing you've been solutions for our provide them in.