the museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a loss to future generations. but our fiscal museums places themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world that haven't touched in saint petersburg. and how is the director here? and i bet he has met in 1898 look forward to rica became a us colony, but still retain its own cultural identity. let them speak in favor of independence . we be thrown into prison today, close to health. it's population the grow, the residence, of course, a retail have new representation in congress on both of us presidential elections. like okay, we're gonna make you american citizens, which you didn't ask for, even if we were offered citizenship and we would prefer explain once again it was in his twenties, he chose defiance that he's homelands independent. we felt that we could generate more of a spirit of resistance rather than submissive except for reality

that we felt was like fear my sorry that i decided to fight for my country. no, i'm not good. i have done things differently. yes. so do i now think that violence is not the means to achieve anything? absolutely. the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the by the administration in nature. world are fascinating with soft power and rhetorical ships. remember, ukraine will win, and ukraine is winning. now we hear russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality.

the cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, matthew and rent in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian. he is founder and editor of the last american vagabond and host of the daily wrap up. and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv correspondence, right job in cross lock, rolls and effects. that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate matthew, let me go to you 1st. so me, one of the things i find really fascinating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we, when we're, you currently ukraine, well, with new crane is winning. we now, we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by implication, does that mean ukraine has one safety business?

this hold discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense, and it's not gaining a lot of fraction, matthew, and non true, your thoughts to be very short. that is what it is in imply, implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic a trick of soft the street and, and the idea would be that if, if a that's be, if there's indication here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to convey a sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past, but i think that it's wearing off a very, very deeply right now is there's a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population in which, which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year, really, since the 1st days of the military intervention began. and, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations of europe. and including the united states as well,

a destruction of ability to basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same plate as they used to be there. you know, ryan, um it was very interesting. last week. um robert f. kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show, and of course had any going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was remarkable, you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, i whole heartedly agree, and i think what's interesting the, the,

what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now is, but just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they're constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories . well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think. and the truth is, as you're seeing in that example, is you know, that they are asking these questions and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on myself. included that what's going on. and ukraine is predominantly about meyer in russia, into this endless engagement, the same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately you could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long ca operation before you know, in, in regard to so be union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last,

it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about you brain winning. i think we all see that. it's a at x at ukraine's expense. just making sure rush of loses and even then i still don't think that's even what's happening. but that's just again, this is the narrative we want you to be spreading. yeah, it, it's, it's very interesting. there's they, they won't, they, they'll, they'll make this unfounded claim that russia has lost, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true johnny. one of the things it's always interesting and any, and even kind of you know, media that is sympathetic to a, a realist interpretation. but they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say that by the administration or other administrations have made any mistake. is it maybe the drives to expand nato? is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead, johnny as well. yes. the size of each other miscalculation has lost them. is calculated

. i think they close their what would be over by now. i think that they homes, that a sudden metrics and the grading surround tia as opposed to trying to make a deal. but i also suspect that russia would have had a list if you like, a possible outcomes and dates are fully back in new grade in the amount of money. and they send the, i think the lessons at noon. that's a possibility service. i think that's what i was able to now, but you know, to suspect as well. and so i, me, well, i knew well about the situation right now. but as the se miscalculations by the west of the north, they house the sanctions of triple the russian economy. that hasn't happened, the sections of the russia and in this echo chamber, which politicians civil society, john let us live in the west. you can hardly bring up a newspaper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. how frustrated blast, uh these things on shoot. i live in an echo chamber and they will themselves. and

the thing can you create really, really count when this was, but since they found out the need, so is nice or weaponry some by sophisticated reformation, they've done like anything else. they reach the device, the bottom line. so i think the west has massive beam is calculated multiple times in this war. and as i say, as being ignored by the western media, you know, it's, it's such a good point. jenny matthew. um are they we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an offer app. you hear that all the time, you're offering them from this year. but they, they never question. why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people,

particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. and when you think that they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and everything else to take, he of and rush are paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal then. and the international community is not supposed to or are told that we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time is we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd, rough as is completely, is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of, of seeing where, where the cards for falls since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of,

of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do knelt down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times likes to be present skis, white dream of the 198 late seventy's throughout the 80s. that the, that is not really there this time around, back in the eighty's the us was still relatively financially stable. whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're they're going forward in front of the idea is because they live with the illusions, you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that you. busy the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic, it's very hollow, but it's more or less big. and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. and so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all,

nobody in the west and power is willing to consider that ryan, i mean i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people. but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us. government has been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly in, in ukraine, but also with syria and then over overlapping that with a larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well, we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will

ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because they're being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with crimea by the way, and they have said this publicly what they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion of what the western media tries to sell to people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here. but you know, ryan brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don batson, never given any agency. it's whatsoever. it's really, it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break. john lee, i've got a lot of time and don't pass on and try me over the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people in don't bass and try me on a new one. to one of the boss of ukraine, and this is being census by the west of media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit. so long as you can try

me at once, we bought it russia, then you realize that, well, there is a peep, there is an opportunity to vcr. if you realize that, that well, it is ethical that you create and gives up top chaise. that's why people try me. are people talking about the use of incenses? because it's by inconvenience, having all these people, the ones we bought, the russia, and i thought it was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay. when gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with our to the russian states. never as one of the most sense community best ingles, all sense and up the speed

. what else? suppose question about this. even though we will bend in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on russia cruising and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the 7th, which was to the states. they requested the 1960 to us. as i was returning to peaceful life with the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukrainian saw, according to intelligence, ukrainian nationalist and the ukrainian insurgent ami said by romano. she'll give each other choices these atrocities for future does hold at the old school and what, what i see on your cell school, the way to do it would be like,

this is of course we'll do a, a new one of those through the plots of it. is the n t v d sabotaged department of the time? he was thomas was stopping the atrocities in ukraine for a good reason, a general sort of blonde. it was very familiar with the situation. he had experience finding the nationalist before the war, loveless to con, get a z, a do it to made it so didn't know, could i e, but it was cool. that's funny. so give me the task was tremendously difficult, but suit up ronda was determined to complete his he had personal accounts to settle with the ukranian nationalist. welcome ex. across the dock were all things are considered on peter the bill to remind you were discussing ukraine the

okay when it go back to johnny here in in moscow because it's ain't what you were saying right before the break. this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bath in crimea, because, you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in, it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it and they denigrated speak to that for our audience. johnny. hey, this is why i spend so much time in dry me with don't boss because the engines shouldn't match. uh, and if you listen to this is a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that what's new western journalist goes the cry me out on boss. why? because if they didn't go that they would have no choice. but to report the exactly what i've been reporting, the majority once he bought a rush, i suspect inconvenience. i think it nbc just went to the recently the device. i'm looking for the items and he was put on a famous ingredient fitness. no,

no on us for that, but it's people who use math. so when you, when it's politically convenient, if people so these are inconvenienced then that just ignore often often a smith. so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people in the past and copying some of those you and kind of thought i'd say it's more of a mix. the certainly more pretty creative in kind of having somebody still who supports for the russians. so it's important. we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and that stuff. i mean is, this is the beginning of piece. when literacy saucier reports in the west and media saying, well, maybe cry me and maybe even don't want to join us. i think then you might see the car moving towards up these producers is. yeah, yeah it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me, when we, if we listen to people on the ground, you know, be before all of this started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine . if it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around,

maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime. which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a piece candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. and i, i've on my project and maybe i'm in the minority right now. but this was a bridge too far for this alliance, claiming itself that being defense. and i think we can see the end of nato as a result of this. eventually matthew, as well, i think the, the viability of the institution, which, whence i mean, a lot of it is largely lost. it takes all day so well over 30 years ago. i have but it has come to it is taking a huge hit obviously and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people on mass voted for zaleski was because they proceed. but he was going to be an anti nazi, you know, he is a jew, he's going to be an anti nazi candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh, and with some form of a win win, a pointed co existence with russia. and he spoke that we petered to that

demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the st puppet, that he always was simply biding his time and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. um, but i think overall you're right the, the i, the very institution of nato has become the rest before world war 3. nobody. even anita wants ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and, and it is with that losing its entire building to carry out the coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato is so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine walk, it doesn't, it inducted it doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know, um,

we heard at the very beginning of the conflict in the secretary defense. so this is about, we're getting russia, it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatry say about an a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, bite and in his joint press conference with the finished president. said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them into nato and tell boot and pulls out. and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just get put in the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said is that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to,

to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep rush mired here because i alternately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of the hours of movement, what they really are the nazi and neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i a in operation aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's into ukraine and then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy. and nazi is i'm and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now it's absolutely we're going to once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say, let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what they're doing,

what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know, john johnny is, it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is it particularly the left in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, the environment is demoya things and they can support you crazy morning, so you're going to be destroyed. i can do lessons to be quite happy with the time should have already taken as long as nature continues to point to create impressions, buses out to the other, we would take it with us or talk of, of us in terms of the not. so you do not see elements, the system testing documentaries before that was started by the guardian time magazine. yeah. advice to some, some good work and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was never a whole when it will start. and some of the, even though it says johnny, even with, with, with allocation from the american congress, there was a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not get america american money. and that's

been memory. hold still. okay. it's bought. actually if i go ahead, i can add to that on 2016 was when they originally said no, and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again in 2018, they added that they cannot order. they also have move and even indirectly, and now they currently are, so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so are they new york times had this big expose a about the nazi problem and ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further single time we are in the article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in,

in ukraine. it's really needs to be internal as here. i mean they, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore. matthew. yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw the recently, b a, d l even came out saying that the, well, you know, the as a battalion. yeah. they're, they're bad. but now we support them in the as of movement, which is different. it's, it's a mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so don't go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no, it's, it's, they can't avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works and it, people see this when you're, when you're trying to like fudged a fudge of calculation when you're doing some math problem a little, a little error at the beginning. seems like something. is there a reason why the person who keep north isn't builds up and builds up a few steps down your you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve and they're there at that place. and beyond that,

and they're still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, the, the, i've said very often in this program, the more the wes tries to help you crane the smaller in smaller it gets okay. and if there is no honest and to lock it or to speak to and the west ukraine will get smaller. it's as simple as that, johnny. yeah, absolutely. and that needs to be an all around somewhere. i would say, potentially. good about lincoln's calling and say rosseters losing. ultimately, i mean it's, it's, it's, it's go hard to do, how could you create an account? spencer's failings, a catastrophic place. but if nato is the end to piece the goes jason's as russia goes, jason's will be giving up the least giving on the top. she rushes taken. they're going to have to sell it as an extra you create is gonna all a job. johnny. i already have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already, i came up with this a few months ago. at least potent didn't make it to paris. we won. that's how the

salad. right. let me, let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan. a. hi. i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished moment of bush just expert across the world. you know, it just so ridiculous how they can't be honest with the population even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a wind, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know, i really demonstrate how weak and desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind, just to continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public enemy,

and there are many, uh, and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a glenn greenwald, bank and more of these kind of people are they explain why empire is bad for the american people, but it's hard to get through that after what, 70 years of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right before we go to uh, before we finish up. go ahead. yeah, i completely agree. it's, it's, it's brain washing ultimately, and we see this with every, every narrative. we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this, and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative, with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it, the more negative returns they get. gentleman, that's all the time we have one to thank my guessing, montreal, franklin, and in moscow. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our t. so unix time and remember prospect rolls the

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