the, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered on peter lavelle. the architects of nato's proxy war and russia have big plans for the camp regime. as the cranes counter offensive fails, the country's postwar realities are being planned in the west. alas, these plans will fail to the crossing ukraine's phase. i'm joined by my guess. erin, good in philadelphia. he's a political scientist historian,

as well as author of american exception empire and the deep state in raleigh. we have ray mcgovern. he is a former c. i a analyst and elizabeth we cross and natalie morris. she is post of the redacted podcast white cross top roles that affect that means it can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate re, let me go. you 1st. um, we all know it's, it's safe then to reach the media and then in the west that the counter offensive is not going well. we also know from the wall street journal, again regime media, but it was never thought to be, it would work out very well any way and, and, but they let it go forward. but at the same time, i'm here with the state department and pentagon officials talking about post war realities. i mean, i don't know how we get from a trailed counter offensive to talking about post war realities. can you connect that dot for me? go head, right? yes. peter, are there finally trying to act like the best versions in the gospel of matthew? you remember those verges? some of them bored,

extra oil and extra shells for they are 155 berlin major howitzers. they got to go to the wedding. the ones that ran out of the mission vision. in other words, there's been no real planning for it happen here. ukrainians, or adult munition. and yet the president united states and here's the lieutenants. keep saying russia has already lost the war. yeah. bottom line here. bottom line, the person is delusional. ringback he would speak in, in maine or last friday, and he said, you know, who can save the world, who can bring the person who can bring the whole world together. is not may, but the president of the united states can only he can. and then a cited madeline albright for god sakes, a, you know, we are exceptional, we're indispensable. and you know,

the aaron is written the whole book about how accept true and where you are. it's going to all full very flat. meanwhile, i have to complement mr. poaching, i'm being very cautious or very gradual and you're with a delusion or a president. one doesn't want to put his back against the wall earlier than one hash to. yep. natalie and in lisben as well. ray is already mentioned, so i'm going to pull it forward. we had a anthony blink and the secretary of state, and the president united states saying that russia's losing a or has lost. so natalie did. they are implying that ukraine is one. i mean, it is kind of a binary when lose. go ahead. now. yes. and we saw that when cnn talked to president trump recently a few months ago when they said who do you want to win or lose as if it is a binary? as if there's just no nuance in it. he said, i want the dying to stop indicating that there is sort of an option for peace. if we all understood the nuance,

the problem is that the west sort of feels like all of ukraine is being just bombs to oblivion by russia. you know, to their chagrin that they have no way to stop this. they don't understand the offerings of peace talks. they don't understand that the war has been concentrated in the don boss for almost 10 years now. this lack of nuance enables them to continue to sell the war and enables them to sell the idea that if we don't stop hooting, he's just gonna keep on going all the way to where i live in, which is the western most part of europe. that, you know, all of a sudden this will be russia if we don't stop this regime of putin. and this lack of nuance is lack of studying this inability to rewind the tape is what allows them to sell the war to americans. so that they, it just, you know, they accept it, they accept the same price as they expense what the president says. they sell it to

a respective of the realities of the ground. that's what we're trying to. absolutely, but i think what's important is just today or just recently on military dot com, there was an open call for a draft inside the united states. and i think that that's important because the previous floors in the middle east really didn't cost the middle or upper classes very much. it was farmed from the poorest among the amongst us. so we didn't have to feel it. if you were an educated upper middle class person, it's just like, oh, that's too bad, right? but if there is an opportunity for a draft, if it cost actual american lives, we might feel quite differently. i have a teenage son now. i absolutely don't feel like any of the wars that the united states has been involved in the last 40 years or something that i would want to sacrifice my son or anybody else, his son. and it's different when it involves your husband, your nephew, your brother, your son. but it is what is interesting, aaron,

is that we have us congressman lindsey graham, for example, wanting the ukrainians to give up their sons at a whim or for for ideology. aaron, i mean, you know, this is what makes it really whimsical because the us in many ways because it can print money into oblivion the, the, me, the chickens will come home to roost eventually on that. but the, they can print all the money they want. and they can buy all this extremely expensive hardware and send it to ukraine, but they don't lose forces. and that is part of what part of the cynicism of this war, aaron? yeah, absolutely. the ukrainian losses are pretty staggering. now. i mean, 400 that over 400005 many accounts, which is that's how much the us last fighting world war 2. if you add up both theaters, pretty much. so this is and this is a much smaller country. and so the idea that they're going to somehow turn this

around is preposterous at this point. and yet they're saying this, you do, it does raise the question is by unseen i'll uh, or is he being misled or does he, does he just delusional in some other way? or are they just trying to somehow limp along to say we're waiting, you know, everything's going great and hope that they can do that until the election or mean it, it's become strange because you at some point they have to be aware that reality is going to is going to come into play and be brought to bear on the perceptions of people. and it just reminds me of karl rove. and that statement he made a ron suskind. it's always attributed to call rosalie. we're an empire now and we make our own reality. and we're seeing the end of that cycle, which really began at the end, within the world, or 2, dropping to the nuclear bombs, which was totally new to us. and the way that the u. s. has just ex, explains the way that it one of the world to be understood by people and pretty

much and force that as much as it could. and, but the more, you know, the more the empire kind of, it comes over extended and praying. the more that the narrative just stops conforming to reality. yeah. but we're in that stage now or nothing makes any sense . it doesn't make any sense to me cuz i in aaron's right. right, right. but then one of the problems that i'd be a symmetrical element of all this is that russia is couch this all in its security concerns. the west ignores them. russia will enforce them, but they, the us primarily and it's in, in nature world, they're finding an ideological more per head, gemini, and not about security. and that is why it's so a symmetrical re well, so russia, as you say, peter, it's an extra central thread to. and i just looked at what made g h here, so, so i'm a president said just a few days ago about being required to use nuclear weapons in the unlikely chance

the nato shyster prevail. so is it an existential threat to nato or to the united states? well, not in re out for the tech terms, but in a logical if it will jump mistake terms. yeah. it is. yeah, yeah. so like my break but re, they made it that way. they framed it that way is some kind of moral crusade in the and, and that's what makes it even more dangerous because these people look at victoria know and got a promotion for goodness sake. okay. these are idea logs and you cannot negotiate with audio logs. ray, and they're also delusional. okay. they're not gonna, when they're going to have to face up to the possibility the actual when definitively russia has enough troops in place to do that. so what will bite and do? that's really the questionnaire out of administrative normal. haven't, you know, should there, there certainly will be out of this cluster. i mean there's will lose nail fight,

say well on that top shelf. they're the one that has the lock on it. those are the many noakes, will they do that? i would not, but put it passed. i like it. that's why you know, natalie the amy ray is absolutely right. and this is what i've been arguing all along, is that, you know, red lines mean nothing to these people here because they believe that they are, you know, they, the angels are on their side and that they must win the end. and because they have that perception logic, he loads them natalie, right? but as an american living abroad, it never ceases to amaze me how just being american affords me some kind of cool points. because america is so good at selling an image at exporting cultural capital, right? and so for that reason we can sell anything and get away with it. so what the hell was there to pay for the wars in the middle east? not really much. we were able to leave

a smouldering wreckage and go home and what did it cost? well, not the media leads and their families and so for that reason we continue to sort of think that this is a good template, right? but the idea of, i mean, you're right, it's, you know, the idea of selling something that you are too afraid to push back on. so for instance, weapons of mass destruction, even if you believed that that was not a possibility, it still was too scary to push back. because of this idea of your family and smoldering bruin's. now we have the same, the same weapons of mass destruction is being used as the narrative of nuclear weapons. and if it was going to say that we sent out around with that, but not but natalie. again, looking at being rational and being using logic, the united states never would have invaded iraq if it did have weapons of mass destruction. i mean, nobody's right on the price of flip that around, repeat it because they knew they didn't have it. that's why they did have the invasion here, but this they have a hedge,

a monic mine site is in place here. i have ok, right, but my air study is the media and so the median knew that there was no weapons of mass destruction. they knew that there was no mounting of forces on the border to create. they knew that and shows not to broadcast it. and so what i'm most interested in is why is the media picking up the state department lies and running with it going into a war where we've been there before? no. well, i thought you didn't see what ray was doing, but yeah, i'm gonna ask ray what his name is. oh, using his fingers far. when we come back from the break, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to continue our discussion on ukraine state state with our to the

se 90 agency or the new point of reach and became a us colony, but still retained its own cultural identity and speak in favor of independence. we be thrown into prison today, close to half its population, the grow, the residents in puerto rico, have new representation in congress and con, booked and us presidential elections. like, okay, we're going to make you american citizens, which you didn't ask for, even if we were offered citizenship and we would prefer one say, gonna using these 2 entities he chose define. so he's homelands independent. we felt that we could generate more of a spirit of resistance rather than of submissive except reality that we fell asleep. shockingly unfair, my sorry that i decided to fight for my country. no, i'm not good. i have done things differently. yes, absolutely. do i now think that violence is not the means to achieve anything?

absolutely. the the the welcome act across stock where all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt. true menu, we're discussing ukraine's fate. the

. okay, before we go to re, i want to go to air and 1st the in, in philadelphia, i'm glad that natalie brought up a erac because, you know, it was a catastrophe and it was, there was no victory there. afghanistan, that was no big tree there. um, olivia, of north africa is still living with the consequences of that even now as we speak right now and i here, but the air and you know, all those conflicts catastrophes they didn't directly affect the united states. natalie is absolutely right. if you're a middle class family, you probably saw it on the news every once in a while and probably got tired of it. okay. but this is very, very different. and something being the scholar of the cold war, i'm a product of the cold war, a child of the cold war. is it one thing great powers bit and do you didn't go after each other, you had proxy wars. this administration wants to take out a nuclear power and have regime change. now, i know people have fantasies, but you know,

the reality of that is that that is really the recipe for catastrophe for world war 3. aaron to yeah, absolutely, and it's really the continuation of, of policies that do day back to the early cold war of the nato did. and the iron curtain didn't have to exist in the way that they did. they did so because the us economic planners, the pinnacle of wall street power, people at the council on foreign relations and the oligarchs, they answered to decided that they needed to make western europe totally aligned with the united states and not trading with the soviet union or the eastern bloc, and so this is a big part of why you get nato and the co, the iron curtain. and you know, throughout, once the cold war ends a few years later in the ninety's, you have china and russia issue in joint declaration saying that they, they believe this will be a multi polar world. and it's a few years later that we start seeing that the us like, you know,

lots of the c i a launch is an al qaeda branch to deal with al qaeda and then months after that. okay, to says it's going to attack the united states, which is an interesting chronology. but all of these incursions into this whole, the near abroad of, or of the former soviet union. these lead up to, um, to what really, what to the, to the well, it's like a prelude to the global war on terror, which is a way to also show up at contested areas of the energy infrastructure of the world . and then also, you know, ukraine brzezinski writes about as explicitly in the late 19 ninety's commissioned by the council on foreign relations. his book, the grants um the grand test board, he writes about how you create is pivotal entity. if you want to make sure that rested in china, don't come together. and for us on the calendar had demonic block, you need to control these areas and emissions you created specifically. so this is the latter, and i think terminal stage of this whole initiative, you know, in the project for a new american century, we can call it and it failed it with the 911 wars and half gave

a stain on the rack and it failed with the air of spring wars in libya and syria. i mean, i get is they quote, unquote succeeded in libya, but syria, they failed in the still occupying it blatantly illegally and so on. and they are and, and losing, and ukraine. and this is really, i think the, it's, it represents the collapse eventually i believe, well, well, why don't have that error there is that when i, i want to go back to, to ray on this one, went ahead to mine is going down. it doesn't take it lightly. okay? if it doesn't take it lightly, and what i worry about going to re right now in raleigh is that they get a refuse to lose. okay? or they'll come up with some kind of praise. i've already coined it from this program that the russians didn't make it to paris oversight. lisbon we won. okay. but we are more serious. no array, you know we've, we've seen the north streamed pipelines blown up. we've seen

a major dam destroyed. and what else do they have up there is late because why might only will concern now is this complet comes to an end eventually is a false flag operation. that's what i worry about. most right. well, peter, you may recall, and so let's see his own ideas about a false flag operation. namely, blowing up is up our osha nuclear plants, the largest in europe. we advertise that, and of course it wouldn't be the russian, so we're blamed for it. now what, what was really interesting is just a few days before the videos summit, all manner of western officials, nato officials, are came down on the list and said the doors were 2nd. i don't, the, the russian attack are ends up. oh yeah, yeah. i should say says dog though and so i'd ski. and so when you arrive in this us, it was already under a wow you why does that have fall out? come into poland and romania and the rest of you. yeah,

he was sort of already ostracized. now that was the last straw in my view. i don't see any balls flight from the west or for sure. a certain weather is the lead sky will try it on his own. i would not put a pass to the important thing here is the fact that the no matter what tony blinked and says and already said, of course is i have quoted and did not achieve his aims of oxy applying and taking overall of ukraine. well, you know, like then thinks that those were boot trans ams, these willfully what mission formed. i prefer to give them the benefit of doubt and that's why i don't he has a long career being a liar. okay. i mean he was a great rushing gator. as well, okay, he doesn't get a designated pass in my book and all these people are very maniacal. natalie, when, you know, when people keep talking about, you know, bringing peace, being a, this conflict to an,

in the west. it says it thinks that they can have an a meeting and in copenhagen now in jet, in this, in saudi arabia. but there's always a missing piece, rushes and never there. and so they're not serious about coming. when they want to do is they, they want to re galvanize the world that has losing interest into conflict at the west started against russia. right. clearly not because restaurant has had an open invitation for peace talks and zalinski passed a law saying that peace talks are illegal. so how can he attend some parties where peace is going to be a discussion? and any time he talks about peace, what he means is increased security guarantees from the west, which he thinks guarantees piece, which have not so far, right. and so they're not serious conversations. and now we see zelinski has extended emergency powers to keep himself in office pass what was planned, an election in october. and so if you're ukrainian, you really have no options here for peace. you have

a leader who obstinately refuses, and then every now and again can pretend they're asking for peace. that's what we saw when he address congress just a few months ago. what he meant by piece was increased weapons. and so those 2 things do not go together unless you're in neo con, but you know, again it's lost in translation because of the sort of, the inability to study the past 10 years of this conflict for most people. and so this idea that it had, you know, had gemini, would lose this battle, be able to spin it because we're so good at p r. and then move on. well, if you look at the map, went from the middle east to ukraine, now we'll go to taiwan and try that there. and then i don't know when this same template happened, so just keep going, right. and so we go around the horn. well, either way, aaron, how, you know, i'm very cynical like watching because i study the media and very cynical it's,

i always can't. my default tends to be a grist. ok. afghanistan was a griffith. ok. you know you had mark milly crying in front of bible. what about the girl? i also not to change to knows about money. okay. because it was a good career or 20 years. it'd be a lot of people made a lot of money off of it does try the country, but by the way, so air and i mean the ukraine adventure is a griffith as well because i tend to think the people in care of realize yeah, the intake is going to be up eventually, but let's catch it as much as we can. well, we can, aaron, the right i, it's hard to that. of course, there are a number of parties interested in eluding ukraine or profiteering office in any way that they possibly can. i don't think that fundamentally it is about a military, industrial, complex moondog or anything that state forward or crass? well, i mean it's crass but it's it, i think it's propelled mostly by the urge to punish russia,

especially after russia intervened and disrupted their plans in syria. i think that the us realize that a, a sort of russia that's going to defend its mirror. broad is a real threat to their long term plans, and that the only place that they could bring this to a head would be in ukraine. and so the evolution, i quote, unquote, fundamentally, i agree with you, particularly, you know, when we look at all of these complex, around the world last 40 years. but this one is against russia's specifically. and that's what makes this different. it makes it different because the way the west has constructed this one side has to win and one loses. that is a paradigm that we've never seen before. aaron, continue, well, is it right? definitely they will, but i'm sorry, they will end up. they'll end up taking a good chunk of that territory, and i think that what you're going to end up with in ukraine is something that looks like the 2010 election map the which is the actually you could argue in terms of like justice that, that sort of suitable because i,

i wish i would throw that. i wish i had that graphic because you're absolutely right. natalie. i interrupted, you jump in. oh i, i just wanted to say, is it different or is it same when you look at the middle eastern floors? those were and attempts to make sure that various countries did not become friends and present a united economic block. that is a similar thing. it's, it's more geography than it is. i don't know. i mean we're trying to describe attentions intentions here. and aaron was giving them the benefit of the doubt. but it is, it literally just about geography is that you are friends with whoever can disrupt unity in that region. and so ukraine is strategically placed in the same way that syria was in the same way, but libya was. and those leaders who had unifying aims were the ones that became the biggest enemy. yep. yep. right. you want to jump in there, but yeah, one minute before we go to the end, the program go ahead, right. well, i just wanted to say that i think what you're driving at here is that this is very

different. this is challenging a nuclear power, which was on voided ever since then. since the soviet union got nuclear weapons, right, this is what john kennedy warned about backing up a nuclear power into a choice between that humiliating the state and something less than that. that's what we've done here and we've had a better wake up and smell of coffee. meanwhile, let's, let's just hope that the biggest proceed as a gradual attrition. i attrition attrition page in ukraine road and have the have those really radical hawks in moscow prevail over what i consider to be food change approach? well, i think all of this, and i'm not original in saying this, that we all want the conflict to come to an end because this is a complex that never should have happened in the 1st place. it could have been easily avoided, but there was

a certain class of people that were hell bent on making this happen. that's all the time we have one, i think my guess in philadelphia, raleigh and, and lisbon. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time remember, prospect rolls, the, the rushing states to navigate as tired as i'm phoning. the most sense, the best. most all sun set up the same assistance must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin machine,

the state on the russians cruising and split the r t spoke neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services, for what question did you say, excuse me? twist, which is, the museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a loss to future generations. but our physical museums, placing themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world that kind of ties in st. petersburg to help ruskie is the director here, and i bet he has met the l. look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except we're so shorter is

a conflict with the 1st law show you live in to the patient. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence at the point obviously is to great trust rather than fit the various jobs. i mean with the artificial intelligence we have so many payments the most protect this phone existence was only exist

the we went to bed and 2017.