the, the public, sanchez, i've been doing news now for 30 years into languages all over the world. here in the united states, interviewed for president's working for major us television networks. and i believe that news should be honest and direct and impactful. and this is direct impact the the us decision to deployed cluster bombs in ukraine. seems to be putting a spotlight not just on the and city as weaponry. but you know what else it's doing . it's putting an emphasis on our foreign policy, double speak, cluster bombs are banned by a 123 countries and condemned categorically by human rights groups worldwide.

here's what makes their usage so roundly shunned by the way it's, it's a, it's essentially a missile, right? but it contains thousands of little bonds, and those little bonds are bomblets as they're actually called, spread out over a large area. but see, that's not the end of it. the real problem is, as, as the us originally discovered in southeast asia, 30 percent of the bomb let's. they don't explode when they hit the ground like they're supposed to. that means they can just sit there for, for a year or more years sometimes until later, when a person often a child comes in contact with it is killed or maimed. the children are particularly susceptible to this. you know, why? because these little bomb, what's they look like toys?

looks like a little boy so, so, so they come up and they pick them up and not knowing it's a bomb. it just blows up on children. in fact, because so many civilians have been killed by cluster bomblets many now called a use of the weapon, a war crime. and we have crime. in fact, here's president bible's own form of secretary vin sachi. this is in february of last year suggesting that very same legal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by russia. if that's true, what is the next step of this is ministration? is there a red line for how much will be tolerated against civilians in this manner? illegal to potentially it is, it would be, i don't have any confirmation of that. we have seen the reports. if, if that were true, it would potentially be a work crime. obviously there are

a range of international for that would assess that. um, so certainly we would look to that to be a part of that conversation. that video by the way of jen sacking has it's gone viral. i mean, globally viral viewers all over the world. citing it is an example of really hard to deny, right? overwhelming hypocrisy, because here now is or former boss explaining why he is sending these cluster bombs to ukraine. what made you change your mind and decide to give them these weapons to think through it and it was a very difficult decision on my part. by the way, to discuss this with our allies discussions with our friends up on the hill. and we're in a situation where you crank continues to be brutally attacked across the board. by addition, somebody's cluster munitions that are had dug rates that are very, very low on the very high that are dangerous civilians. number one, number 2,

and the craniums are running out of ammunition. the ammunition that they used to call and 155 millimeter weapons. this is a, this is a war relating to munitions and they're running out of those and that i munition and we're low on look with all due respect to our president. let's company food by the. yeah. but, you know, dolly g, explanation, this is really a special circumstance this time. in fact, let's be clear when it comes to us foreign policy cluster bombs are really the norm, not the exception, the norm, according to the cluster munitions coalition. but us has by far used cluster bombs more than any other country in the world. we have used cluster bombs, munitions with devastating consequences and conflicts all over the world. cambodia

allows vietnam 67 these we years in a rock and quite and saudi arabia 1991 and the former yugoslavia, serbia montenegro costs about 1999 using enough data to stay in 20012002 in a rock 2003, and most recently in the m in 2009, the us also supplied cluster munitions to as well, which they used in combat against lebanon, syria, that we produced and transferred hundreds of thousands of cluster munitions to at least 30 countries. i'm look, i'm a parenthesis, i'll name them for you. it's argentina and australia and by rein in belgium and canada, and egypt and denmark and france and germany of greece and hon. tundras and italy and japan and jordan and south korea and morocco and the netherlands of norway and oman, pakistan and poland, and saudi arabia and spain and thailand and turkey,

and the u. a. e and the u. k. not to mention indonesia. now beyond the hazardous of the comments, suggesting that we don't mind what killing innocent civilians even if perhaps their children as long as we can punish russia. there is another reason why many americans are against the use of cluster munitions. you say it's not just the opposition that often gets killed by cluster bombs. it's our own troops. look at what happened repeatedly in a rock, american pilot scattered thousands of cluster bombs indiscriminately. and in so doing, they placed on mark indiscriminate and long lasting mine fields in the past of their own ground forces. while it wasn't reported at the time, at least at the time that it happened, we now know of at least 18 incidents were unexploded cluster munitions occurred during desert storm killing me. scores of us troops and marines. here is our

russian president, poor miss responding. he says, it's a sign that ukraine is going to stop piles of shows supplied by the west that the, an exceeding, right. which is why they're meeting these costs are bobbsey suggests. he also warns, somewhat ominously, russia has the same whether it's a short message to somebody. see if it did, i say the stuff that she needs the bus or as leach and the older know, guess the only way possible because each number to the district. but the new deal with the new but i mean you, you know the yearbook when you applied you missed it. just let them know the easiest way you can work or put it on the po to them. you know, you want us to somebody, but if not, and then wait, when you deal with that. nope. and you should just be able to bring me in. yeah. support different out for me. and i'll start with the ends of simpler but nicely to kind of you enjoy to get started talking about. this is mark sla boda.

he's on the international relations and security and list and you can check them out by the way. he's very popular on youtube with this channel the real politic with marshall about a mark. thanks so much for joining us. rick. thanks for having me. it's always a modern, a pleasure to be on the show. what are the things that i find interesting about our president's comment about, respectfully, president biden's comment is that there seems to be a suggestion that the situation in a crane is already so terrible. and both sides apparently have been using mass of weaponry against each other. but what difference would it make if we were to add some more weapons and throw them into the mix as well? it seems to be what he's saying. i've never quite heard of president door. a world leaders say something like that. i'm not sure i'm comfortable with that. are you? well, i think it's a clear sign of desperation. more than anything else. all military experts, you name them agree that this has become a war of attrition,

not just between russia and the us back to give poetry, jayman ukraine, but between russia and nato. the fact that a war of attrition fought largely through artillery. right? western papers have reported that at times 70 to 90 percent of ukrainian military casualties have been a result of artillery, shrapnel, or explosive. now, here's the problem. russia has the key of regime out gun with artillery shells, according to their own top general valerie's illusion. a $10.00 to $1.00 that it is despite nato throwing every spare um, artillery piece, howitzer and artillery shells a cord into the conflict. several european states have stripped their own military,

including the united kingdom in denmark, estonia, you know, of every single artillery piece and shells. an endless amount of shells are needed . the coverage him was firing between 5 ivan, 6000 artillery shells a day. and russia was firing between 50 and 60000 artillery shells a day. and that's before the height of, of the current, of the dual offenses. on both sides of the conflict. so if we are at that point war of attrition, key word, how would cluster bombs change that equation? can you explain what i think i know where you're going with those? but i'd like to hear you put it in your words and for our view for our viewers who are watching you right now. yeah, it would both. uh, certainly the coverage is already used. cluster munitions. uh, in this conflict, in fact, uh, human rights watch and even the new york times reported on this back in 2014,

when the coverage him almost immediately after seizing power and t as in 2014 started rating re um, rating cluster munitions, down on their own civilian. okay, i, i, but let me stop you for a minute cuz i, i really want to get this question. i get it. ukraine has used them, at least according to reports. i've seen, in fact, these, this type of weaponry has been used in this, in this conflagration, this conflict before. but that's not my question. i want to know as a citizen of the united states of america. why my president, my government has made a decision that by doing this it can alter the war, maybe when the war for the side that they're on, that it can somehow be a real differentiator. how that's not the reason they're doing it. they're doing it out of desperation because they don't have any artillery shells left. these cluster

munitions are in a 155 millimeter artillery shell jackets. they want to fire something, even if it's not the best mission for the particular battlefield use. sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. they're not very good on the offensive. as you noted in your beginning intro, that if you are firing and creating and a rots my in field in front of your troops and a trench and then sending your own troops on an offensive end of that trench, you're sending your own troops into your own self created mines the. all right, that's not smart. use some cluster munitions, but they're using them because nato, the us even us allies, is real south korean japan have already run strong. all of their artillery stock piles of a $155.00 millimeters shells be their industrial complex. can't ramp up to meet the demand because they haven't been geared up for this type of land centric artillery

heavy conflict for decades. so they're in the soup continue. so throwing something 3rd, tapping cluster munitions in artillery shells. so it sounds like, by your definition, desperation means that short of this usage of these custom, munitions, they would have nothing else left, of course, save. you know, the most dangerous weapons in the world, that would be the nuclear weapons that obviously we are top. we have no plans to use, right. that these. the key point here. i think you, i think you've hit right, the hammer or the nail right on the head. where do we escalate from here? the cambridge game starts using ever increasing amounts of cluster munitions. russia is already reported to have start using them. they have much bigger supplies of cluster munitions that they have largely refrain from using bus far in the conflict right with greater varieties. where does the us escalate next to?

well ok, so we're already talking ab sixteen's attack is long range, missiles, chemical weapons, us as large supplies of chemical weapons, tactical nukes, stealth bombers. what's, what's, what's next? what is asked here, cluster munitions, where do we escalate from here? the, the intensity of the conflict, right? now is the most intense that it has been in a year and a half of the conflict, right? it's ever increasing. it's ever increasing intensity more armaments, more troops. and um, the results for nato's, you know, proxy forces have not been any great progress at all on this great much ballyhooed, defensive assault level. what do you do next? let me look at it. let me put the question and look at it another way from your in moscow. right now, you read the papers of moscow. you see what the sense is there with the people and

the government. is there a sense then, that if nato is running out of weaponry, to a certain extent, i'm sure, and the united states as, as well. and the other allies are as well. and obviously ukraine is because they've got nothing to be got help from nato in the united states. then, doesn't that create an enormous opportunity for russia to just go ahead and go in and perhaps do what they originally wanted to do in this theater? which is why russia is already beginning a large defensive right now, largely on reported in the western media in the loo gone. sk region towards coupon skin. lamont, according to the kia version, some 100000 troops, 900 tanks, 2000 pieces of artillery and multiple loans, rocket systems. and they're already making more progress than the q ever dream has in the last 7 weeks of their offensive. there is no incentive now for russia to go to the negotiating table, nato keeps escalating,

but they're running out of things to escalate with. how do you fight in artillery war without artillery shells? cluster munitions, okay. they can be used sometimes, but they're not always the best tool for the job. russia is seeing that, you know, tapped out and um, they are not prepared to back down. in fact, they're a neutral war. goals have only toughened since the conflict has begun. what are your expect that the reaction is going to be in the next up weeks? maybe the next month from president zelinski regarding the vist that we're talking about right now. do you do? is he privy to the fact that his suppose in avenue mission in this more is being depleted on a, on a, on a regular basis and that soon he may not have any place to turn? of course is, i mean the, i think you can hear that in the ever increasing shrillness of, you know,

his rhetoric of his demands of his, you know, showing forever more weapons ever more money. um i, i think he is desperately aware. i think it's gotta be causing a really emotional problems for him at this point. but his prop, again, bubble has built up so much that he can't, there puncture it and admit that kind of reality to who is his own people, his own troops. okay, stay right there. okay. i think this is a fascinating conversation and we're going to continue it in just a moment. i'd like to continue this conversation with you. what, what do you think of this? i'd love for you to reach out to me on twitter or my handle is rick sanchez, tv. rick sanchez, tv. and i'll be looking for you right there and we can have a conversation. when we come back though, there is a strange partnership developing in congress and we're going to tell you a little bit. salazar is here right there.

the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills. and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground can a started in 1983 session with my father on a young man, the site that's all exactly the same as a kid does. when he goes out in the lake and the communities and for a parent is with ron, real nice families and calendars for a really long time. my mom was pregnant with me still long winding. and i grew up

on long land and efficient sense. so probably 1970 was my 1st year that i seriously pointed to the explainable biomass is near historical levels of growth rates have dropped falling when it's done and it's worse form has of leveling effect. and it has a tendency to really just sort of strip away everything that's there. there. wave fisheries are changing. it's the way our country is changing. it's increasingly hard for small businesses to make it abundant. stocks are important. i mean, who wants to fish the last best? the message i would leave to you is the importance of not giving up the importance of working together and also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean. the ad. welcome back. i'm rick sanchez book. it's not a huge, but we're starting to see some push back at present

a button even from his own party on this issue. here is congress of and barbara lee coming down hard on biding, and the use of cluster bombs, cost the balance should never be used. that's crossing the line. once you see what takes place, we know what takes place in terms of cluster bombs are being very dangerous to civilians. they don't always immediately explode. children can step on them. that's, that's a line. we should not cross. i am here now is what's even more interesting democrats and republicans who normally agree on absolutely nothing these days in the united states. they can't agree on what they have for lunch. are finding some agreement on this topic. here's republican now congressman mac games saying that he will join the democrats on,

on the issue of cluster box. i'm going to be the republican co sponsor of the jacob's amendment before the house rules committee. we have an opportunity with by partisanship to stand against the war monitoring bytes. and back with us now is geo political, and the military analyst marks about a mark, thanks so much for being with us the what. what do you think of, of looking at? i'm not, i would, let's not make more of it than it is. but uh, what you're starting to see some resistance and push back in congress. you saw what barbara lee had to say, though, she's always felt that way about wars on necessary was one of the few, unfortunately in our country who does. but now you have mag gates republican and there are a few others out there who are saying, look, we shouldn't be doing. this is the think this could be the beginning of a groundswell. rick, i, i tell you, i think it's nice to see right from the left margin of the

democrats and shall we say from the trump margin of the republican field. right. it's nice to see, but unfortunately there's still a broad bipartisan consensus on both sides that are the middle ground between those 2 tiny margins. it's a lot larger that are fully in support. and in fact, pushing the by the administration for more, for f sixteens for attack him, you know, for a, you know, if, if they could port cluster munitions inside of attack homes and launched them from f sixteens, they would. so it's nice to see, but i don't think it's i'm maybe i'm just too cynical to expect any type of real push back to come from inside the belly of the beast. so lacking that, it seems like the only thing that would make sense in terms of pushback

against president vitamin has been astray sion on another war need. i say this doesn't look to me any different than vietnam, afghanistan, iraq, syria, i mean, libby. uh yeah, man, i could go on and on. where enough americans finally say, is there anything we can do to try and resolve this thing is there, is there a way we can bring about some kind of peace deal? why don't we sit down with both putting and zalinski? why do we. busy only sit down with so lensky. is that a crazy question that i should be asking for other americans should be asking you remember, how many americans protested against the iraq or quite a bit and it never got any coverage, the millions, millions into it. it has no effect on the conflict because it was only a 32nd v o, a 32nd voiceover on the nightly news. when millions of people show up in new york

city or in washington dc protesting a war. if nobody knows the street and falls in the forest more and you realize better than any one what a mano lives in support of u. s. foreign policy that the us mainstream media outlets are. so i don't see room for any type of radical change, whether it's from the populace, from the 4th, the state of the media, from within, you know, the bowels of, of the government, of the deep state itself. i mean, take a look at how syria ends. right, syria hasn't ended any type of diplomatic resolution. u. s. military still ill, legally occupies eastern syria. turkey occupies the north of it. the syrian government with rock show ok you, you know, has control of the rest of the country. but with the us sitting on the oil and wheat fields, you know, there's no hope of recovery. there's no peace deal. there's no talking to the enemy

because you've demonized them and caricature them to such an extent as part of your, your foreign policy. that it is impossible then to lower your self to conducting diplomacy with an enemy that you have the villain eyes to a cartoonish degree. can we agree? let's get back to cluster bumps. can, can we agree that cluster bombs should be treated if not like nuclear weapons, damn near close to it. a military guy, right. um, i mean, you're older and 5 years later picking them up and dying and you know the thousands in all there. i read a story recently that said that they are still finding the in, in, in allows us dropped so many cluster munitions on the country. a plane load of them every 8 minutes for almost a decade. that at the current rate of removal the government, their estimates,

they'll have completely clear their territory of us cluster munitions in 800 years . that's. that's incredible. as much as it is shameful and m as citizens of his plan. and we should be responsible for allowing anybody to do that kind of crap. i fig. to be honest, i'm more worried about depleted uranium ammunition that has of genetic affects causing birth mutations in subsequent generations, as we've seen in iraq and serbia, it does a mens o ecological damage. it is a weapon of mass, ecological destruction as well. but the depleted uranium ammunition has been supplied to the cambridge mean by the united kingdom and the u. s. has been talking about it as well that has also entered into the conflict. and here's the, here's the problem are we, we, i remember when i was younger,

and so were you that we saw these great meetings between people like gorbachev and the premieres of train, the signing all these deals with guys like reagan and, and, and, and they were actually working not so successfully but working toward agreements where they said let's shake hands and say, we won't ross, that line, we won't do this, we won't do that. we won't use this kind of weapon. seems like today we're going in the opposite direction and it doesn't seem to me. and that's not just to blame my country because i think russia and china and the us, all of the large countries on this planet have not have the, i guess the willingness to come together to do this. and they showing, i'm sure i think they're in, during the cold war there was at least reals of the game, right? yeah. that were more or less respected because both sides had a degree of respect and fear of each other. and, and certainly i think roger,

enjoying a respect and fear the united states. but the united states through this uni polar moment of the ninety's, they lost that fear in respect of other countries. they came to believe in us primacy and who gemini, everywhere in the world. and they don't think they should have to negotiate with countries that they see as their ideological opponents. and there are more inferiors. you say a moral inferiors drawer. that's a prime tenant of the us id. ology. the supremacist ideology of us exceptionalism us believes that it is systemically and morally superior to every other country on earth, therefore it can do no wrong mark so about it's a delight to be able to talk to you. i know you noted study of this stuff on a daily basis, so thank you so much for your,

for your insight. we appreciate it. thanks for having me. before we go, i want to remind you of our mission and it's simple. really. i want to try and disable the world. we've got to stop living in these little boxes where you know, once i doesn't understand what the other 1 may believe or see, just don't live in boxes. the truth is everywhere. palmer shifted. i'll be looking for you again right here where i help to provide direct impact by golly, the

oh, sure seemed wrong. just don't to shape house because the application and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will support we choose to look for common ground the .