the, the b u. s. decision to deployed cluster bombs in ukraine. seems to be putting a spotlight not just on the in cities weaponry, but you know, what else it's doing. it's putting an emphasis on our foreign policy, double speak, cluster bombs are banned by a 123 countries and condemned categorically by human rights groups worldwide. here's what makes their usage so roundly shunned by the way it's, it's a, it's essentially a missile, right? but it contains thousands of little bonds, and those little bonds are bomblets as they're actually called, spread out over a large area. but see, that's not the end of it. the real problem is, as, as the us originally discovered in southeast asia, 30 percent of the bomb let's. they don't explode when they hit the ground like

they're supposed to. that means they can just sit there for, for a year or more years sometimes until later, when a person often a child who comes in contact with it is killed or maimed. children are particularly susceptible to this. you know, why? because these little bomb, what's they look like toys? looks like a little boy so, so, so they come up and they pick them up and not knowing it's a bomb. it just blows up on children. in fact, because so many civilians have been killed by cluster bomblets many now called a use of the weapon, a war crime. and we have crime. in fact, here's president bible's own formal secretary. then saturday. this is in february of last year, suggesting that very same a san zera for it says illegals, cluster bombs,

and vacuum bombs being used by russians. if that's true, what is the next step of this is ministration? is there a red line for how much will be tolerated against civilians in this manner that illegal potentially it is, it would be i don't have any confirmation of that. we have seen the reports. if, if that were true, it would potentially be a war crime. obviously there are a range of international for that would assess that. um, so certainly we would look to that to be a part of that conversation. that video by the way of jump sacking had its gone viral. i mean, globally viral viewers all over the world, citing it is an example of really hard to deny right, overwhelming hypocrisy. because here now is or former boss explaining why he is sending these cluster bombs to ukraine. for maybe you

change your mind and decide to give them these weapons to think through it. and it was very difficult decisions on my part. and by the way, discuss this with our allies discussions with our friends up on the hill. and we're in a situation where you crank continues to be brutally attacked across the board by munitions or by these cluster munitions that are have dug rates that are very, very low on the very high that are dangerous civilians. number one, number 2, and the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. the ammunition that they used to call and 155 millimeter weapons. this is a, this has a war relating to munitions and they're running out of those and that ammunition and we're low on look, with all due respect to our president. let's not be sold by the. yeah. but you know, dollar g explanation. this is really a special circumstance this time. in fact,

let's be clear when it comes to us foreign policy cluster bombs are really the norm, not the exception, the norm. according to the cluster munitions coalition, the u. s. has by far used cluster bombs more than any other country in the world. we have used cluster bombs, munitions with devastating consequences and conflicts all over the world. cambodia allows vietnam 67 these we using a rock and quite and saudi arabia. 1991 and the former yugoslavia, serbia montenegro costs about 1999 using enough data stay on 20012002 in a rock, 2003 and most recently in the m in 2009. the us also supplied cluster munitions to as well, which they used in combat, i guess lebanon, syria, that we produced and transferred hundreds of thousands of cluster munitions to at

least fairly countries. i'm no comment for emphasis on name. i'm for you. it's argentina and australia. and bahrain and belgium, in canada and egypt in denmark, in france and germany in greece and hunting tourists and italy and japan and jordan and south korea and morocco and then the lens of norway. busy oman, pakistan and poet, and saudi arabia in spain and thailand and turkey, and the u. a. e and the u. k. not to mention indonesia. now beyond the hazardous of the comments, suggesting that we don't mind what killing innocent civilians even if perhaps their children as long as we can punish russia. there is another reason why many americans are against the use of cluster munitions. and you say it's not just the opposition that often gets killed by cluster bombs. it's our own troops. look at what happened repeatedly in a rock,

american pilot scattered thousands of cluster bombs indiscriminately. and in so doing, they placed on mark indiscriminate and long lasting mine fields in the past of their own ground forces. while it wasn't reported at the time, at least at the time that it happened, we now know of at least 18 incidents were unexploded cluster munitions occurred during desert storm killing me. scores of us troops and marines. here is our russian president put in miss responding. he says, it's a sign that ukraine is going to stop piles of shells supplied by the west that the, an exceeding, right. which is why they're needing these costs are bobbsey suggests. he also warns, somewhat ominously, russia has the same whether it's a short message to somebody, see if it didn't say that's that fiction these up plus or as leech, and the what all the non castillo thing. we paper stuff because each number or the

due to a new deal with the new but i mean, you know what else in your book when you applied humans to just about done the, the easiest thing you can watch or put it on the po to me you know, you will not store somebody at the bus if not, and then wait when you deal with nope. and yesterday is the able to bring the support different from me. and i'll start with the answer somewhere, but our nice little community enjoy to get started talking about. this is mark sla boda. he's on the international relations and does security and list and you can check them out by the way. he's very popular on youtube or this channel the real politic with marshall about a mark. thanks so much for joining us. rick. thanks for having me. it's always a modern, a pleasure to be on the show. what are the things that i find interesting about our president's comment about, respectfully, president biden's comment is that there seems to be a suggestion that the situation in a crane is already so terrible. and both sides apparently have been using mass of

weaponry against each other. but what difference would it make if we were to add some more weapons and throw them into the mix as well? it seems to be what he's saying. i've never quite heard of president or a world leaders say something like that. i'm not sure i'm comfortable with that. are you as well? i think it's a clear sign of desperation. more than anything else. all military experts, you name them agree that this has become a war of attrition, not just between russia and the us back to give poetry, jayman ukraine, but between russia and nato. the fact of a war of attrition fought largely through artillery. right? western papers have reported that a time 70 to 90 percent of ukrainian military casualties have been a result of artillery, shrapnel, or explosive. now, here's the problem. russia has the key of regime out gun with artillery shells,

according to their own top general valerie's illusion. a $10.00 to $1.00 that it is despite nato throwing every spare. um, artillery piece howitzer and artillery shells a cord into the conflict of several european states have stripped their own military. it's including the united kingdom in denmark, estonia, you know, of, of every single artillery piece and shells. an endless amount of shells are needed . the coverage him was firing between 5 and 6000 artillery shells a day. and russia was firing between 50 and 60000 artillery shells a day, and that's before the height of, of the current, of a duel offensive on both sides of the conflict. so if we are at that point,

war of attrition, key word, how would cluster bombs change that equation? can you explain what i think i know where you're going with this? but i'd like to hear you put it in your words and for our view for our viewers who are watching you right now. yeah, it would both. uh, certainly the coverage is already used. cluster munitions. uh, in this conflict, in fact, uh human rights watch and even the new york times reported on this back in 2014, when the coverage him uh almost immediately after seizing power and t as in 2014 started reading re reading cluster munitions down on their own civilian. okay, i, i, but let me stop you for a minute cuz i, i really want to get this question. i get it. ukraine has used them, at least according to reports. i've seen, in fact these, this type of weaponry has been used in this, in this conflagration, this conflict before. but that's not my question. i wanna know. busy as

a citizen of the united states of america, why my president, my government has made a decision that by doing this, it can alter the war. maybe when the war for the side that they're on, that it can somehow be a real differentiator. how and that's not the reason they're doing it. they're doing it out of desperation because they don't have any artillery shells left. these cluster munitions are in a 155 millimeter artillery shell jackets. they want to fire something even if it's not the best mission. for the particular battlefield youths, sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. they're not very good on the offensive. as you notice in your beginning intro, that if you're firing and creating and a rods mine field in front of your troops in a trench and then sending your own troops on an offensive into that trench,

you're sending your own troops into your own self created mind feel right, that's not smart. use of cluster munitions, but they're using them because nato, the us, even us allies. israel, south korean japan have already run through all of their artillery stockpiles at $155.00 millimeters shelves. big their industrial complex can't ramp up to meet the demand because they haven't been geared up for this type of land centric artillery heavy conflict for decades. so they're in the soup continue. so throwing something 3rd, tapping cluster munitions in artillery shells. so it sounds like, by your definition, desperation means that short of this usage of these cluster munitions, they would have nothing else left, of course, save. you know, the most dangerous weapons in the world. that would be the nuclear weapons that obviously we are. we have no plans to use, right?

that these the key point here, i think you, i think you've hit it right, the hammer or the nail right on the head. where do we escalate from here? the cambridge game starts using ever increasing amounts of cluster munitions. russia is already reported to have start using them. they have much bigger supplies of cluster munitions that they have largely refrained from using thus far in the conflict. right with greater varieties. where does the us escalate next to? well, okay, so we're already talking f sixteens attack in the long range, missiles, chemical weapons, us as large supplies of chemical weapons, tactical nukes, stealth bombers. what's, what's, what's next? what is after cluster munitions? where do we escalate from here? the, the intensity of the. 1 conflict right now is the most intense that it has been in a year and a half of the conflict, right? it's ever increasing. it's ever increasing intensity more armaments,

more troops and the results for nato's. you know, proxy forces have not been any great progress at all on this great much ballyhooed defensive assault level. what do you do next? let me look at it. let me put the question and look at it another way from your in moscow. right now you read the papers of moscow, you see what the sense is there with the people and the government. is there a sense then, that if nato is running out of weaponry, to a certain extent, i'm sure, and the united states as well. and the other allies are as well. and obviously ukraine is because they've got enough in the bank got help from nato in the united states. then doesn't that create an enormous opportunity for russia to just go ahead and go in and perhaps do what they originally wanted to do in this theater? which is why russia is already beginning a large defensive right now. largely on reported in the western media in the lou

gone region towards coupon skin. lamont, according to the kia version, some 100000 troops, 900 tanks, 2000 pieces of artillery in multiple loans, rocket systems. and they're already making more progress than he ever dream has. in the last 7 weeks of their offensive. there is no incentive. now, for russia to go to the negotiating table, nato keeps escalating, but they're running out of things to escalate with. how do you fight in artillery war without artillery shells? cluster munitions, okay. they can be used sometimes, but they're not always the best tool for the job. russia is seeing that, you know, tapped out and um, they are not prepared to back down. in fact, they're a neutral war. goals have only toughened since the conflict has begun. what are your expect that the reaction is going to be in the next week? so maybe the next month from president zalinski regarding this that we're talking

about right now. do you do? is he privy to the fact that his suppose in ammunition in this more is being depleted on a, on a, on a regular basis and that soon he may not have any place to turn? of course is, i mean the, i think you can hear that in the ever increasing shrillness of, you know, his rhetoric of his demands of his, you know, showing forever more weapons ever more money. um i, i think he is desperately aware. i think it's got to be causing a really emotional problems for him at this point. but his prop, again, bubble has built up so much that he can't dare puncture it and admit that kind of reality to who is his own people, his own troops. okay, stay right there. okay. i think this is

a fascinating conversation and we're going to continue it in just a moment. i'd like to continue this conversation with you. what, what do you think of this? i'd love for you to reach out to me on twitter. my handle is rick sanchez, tv rick sanchez, tv. and i'll be looking for you right there and we can have a conversation. when we come back though, there is a strange partnership developing in congress and we're going to tell you a little bit. salazar is here right there, the to take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscope. it gives him just a shepherd, reality distortion by tell us to division with no real live indians.

fixtures. design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills and is it just as a chosen for you? correct j. the images presented is 1st. can you see through there illusion going underground? can the the ad welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. look, it's not a huge but we're starting to see some push back. i present a button even from his own party on this issue. here is congress of and barbara lee coming down hard on biden, and the use of cluster bombs,

cluster balance should never be used. that's crossing the line. once you see what takes place, we know what takes place in terms of cluster bombs, being very dangerous to civilians. they don't always immediately explode. children can step on them. that's, that's a line. we should not cross. i am here now is what's even more interesting democrats and republicans would normally agree on absolutely nothing these days in the united states. they can't agree on what they have for lunch. are finding some agreement on this topic. here's republican now congressman mac gates saying that he will join the democrats on, on the issue of cluster box. i'm going to be the republican co sponsor of the jacob's amendment before the house rules committee. we have an opportunity with by

partisanship to stand against the war monitoring bytes. and back with us now is geo political and the military analysts stop marshal boat a. mark, thanks so much for being with us to what, what do you think of, um, okay, i'm not, i would, let's not make more of it than it is. but uh, what you're starting to see some resistance and push back in congress. you saw what barbara lee had to say, though, she's always felt that way about wars on necessary wars. one of the few, unfortunately in our country who does. but now you have mag gates republican and there are few others out there who are saying, look, we shouldn't be doing. this is the think this could be the beginning of a groundswell. rick, i, i tell you, i think it's nice to see right from the left margin of the democrats and shall we say from the trump margin of the republican field. right. it's nice to see, but unfortunately there's still

a broad bipartisan consensus on both sides that are the middle ground between those 2 tiny margins. it's a lot larger that are fully in support. and in fact, pushing the by the administration for more, for f sixteens for attack him, you know, for a, you know, if, if they could port cluster munitions inside of attack homes and launched them from f sixteens, they would. so it's nice to see, but i don't think it's i'm maybe i'm just too cynical to expect any type of real push back to come from inside the belly of the beast. so lacking that, it seems like the only thing that would make sense in terms of pushback against president biden has been astray sion, on another war need. i say this doesn't look to me any different than vietnam,

afghanistan, iraq, syria, i mean, libby. uh yeah, man, i could go on and on. where enough americans finally say, is there anything we can do to try and resolve this thing is there, is there a way we can bring about some kind of peace deal? why don't we sit down with both putting and zalinski? why do we. busy only sit down with sa lensky. is that a crazy question that i should be asking for other americans should be asking you remember, how many americans protested against the iraq or quite a bit and it never got any coverage to millions deleon's pension it. it has no effect on the conflict because there was only a 32nd v o, a 32nd voiceover on the nightly news. when millions of people show up in new york city or in washington dc protesting a war. if nobody knows the even falls in the forest more and you realize better

than any one what a mano lives in support of u. s. foreign policy that the us mainstream media outlets are. so i don't see room for any type of radical change, whether it's from the populace, from the 4th a state of the media, from within, you know, the bowels of, of the government, of the deep state itself. i mean, take a look at how syria ends. right, syria hasn't ended in any type of diplomatic resolution. u. s. military still ill, legally occupies eastern syria. turkey occupies of the north of it, the syrian government with rock. so ok, you, you know, has control of the rest of the country. but with the us sitting on the oil and wheat fields, you know, there's no hope of recovery. there's no peace deal. there's no talking to the enemy because you've demonized them and caricature them to such an extent as part of your, your foreign policy. that it isn't possible then to will lower your self to

conducting diplomacy with an enemy that you have the villain eyes to a cartoonish degree. can we agree? let's get back to cluster bombs. can, can we agree that cluster bombs should be treated if not like nuclear weapons, damn near close to it? a military guy, right. i mean, you're older and 5 years later picking them up and dying and you know the thousands in all there. i read a story recently that said that they are still finding the in, in laos the us drops so many cluster munitions on the country. a plane load of them every 8 minutes for almost a decade. that at the current rate of removal the government, their estimates bill have completely cleared their territory of us, cluster munitions and 800 years. that's, that's incredible. as much as it is shameful and, and as citizens of his planet,

we should be responsible for allowing anybody to do that kind of crap. isaac, to be honest, i'm more worried about depleted uranium ammunition that has of genetic affects causing birth mutations in subsequent generations, as we've seen in iraq and serbia, it does a mens o ecological damage. it is a weapon of mass, ecological destruction as well. but, but the depleted uranium ammunition has been supplied to the key averaging by the united kingdom and the u. s. has been talking about it as well that has also entered into the conflict. and here's the, here's the problem are we, we, i remember when i was younger, and so were you that we saw these great meetings between people like gorbachev and the premieres of trying to signing all these deals with guys like reagan and, and, and,

and they were actually working not so successfully but working toward agreements where they said let's shake hands and say, we won't ross, that line, we won't do this, we won't do that. we won't use this kind of weapon. seems like today we're going in the opposite direction and it doesn't seem to me. and that's not just to blame my country because i think russia and china and the us, all of the large countries on this planet have not have the, i guess the willingness to come together to do this. and they, shawn, i'm sure i think they're in, during the cold war there was at least reals of the game, right? yeah. that were more or less respected because both sides had a degree of respect and fear of each other. and, and certainly i think roger, enjoying a respect and fear the united states, me, but the united states through this uni, polar moment of the ninety's, they lost that fear in respect of other countries. they came to believe in us

primacy and who gemini everywhere in the world, and they don't think they should have to negotiate with countries that they see as their ideological opponents. and there are more inferiors. you say a moral inferiors drawer, that's a prime tenant of the us ideology. the supremacist ideology of us exceptionalism us believes that it is systemically and morally superior to every other country on earth. therefore, it can do no wrong mark so about i'd like to be able to talk to you. i know you know the study of this stuff on a daily basis. so thank you so much for your, for your insight. we appreciate it. thanks for having me. before we go, i want to remind you of our mission and it's simple, really. i want to try and the silo the world. we've got to stop living in these

little boxes where, you know, one side doesn't understand what the other 1 may believe or say, trust don't live in boxes. truth is everywhere. palmer chapter i'll be looking for you again right here where i hope to provide direct impact by golly, the oh, what else seemed wrong? just don't you have to shape house and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground

the, the russian states never. i've side as i'm one of the most sense, the best most i'll send send up the in the system must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia today, and split the r t. suppose that keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services for the question, did you say a request to check the

cds or magic? you put it in conscripts sent on a suicide to charge a cut down along the front line. our to use them or i does via visits, is that for rose are region to debunk the western medias plain. so you printing an army has breached russian. defense is also a head. the more than 80 protestors were arrested on friday alone. and your van with a 4th consecutive day of protest underway as demonstrators are furious that the government for what they see is the surrender of newborn a per box to as or by john and kenya and india.