isn't comfortable to cause afterwards, you have to wash your head or drive some companies off or joy electrodes without you. they cause suffering because they scratch your head. we decided to use a solid shell, which is very rarely used on the world market. it works just as well, but it doesn't get your head dirty. all the equipment is completely manufactured in rush. i mean, did you speak to the? well, that's open. now do you be sure to check out our t dot com for all of the latest breaking news and updates? i will see you right back here at the top of the hour the . we talk a lot on this show about whistle blowing in government and in banking. it seems that both of those worlds concrete, a perfect storm of wrong doing that forces those with the conscience to stand up and say something. but what about in big corporations? what about in the biggest company in the world, when the bottom line is profits,

nearly every company will cut corners, but sometimes they'll do it at a cost to the health and the safety of their workers and to the public's privacy. and for whistle blower that's just not going to work. i'm john kerry. ok, welcome to the whistle blower, the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 actually give it was a highly motivated, highly educated tech with when she began working at apple in 2015. she was hired as a program manager. she was making good money. and she had a great deal of responsibility. an incident in her personal life where there was an environmental danger in her apartment complex a tool and her 2 environmental issues at work too. when apple announced internally that it was going to conduct something called a vapor intrusion test, she checked in saying that it was unsafe for employees. spoiler alert. she was

right, of course, but the company pushed back hard shortly thereafter. ashley fainted at work and did not know why this contributed to her concerns that apple had not properly tested the work side for contaminants. she also believed apple had not sufficiently informed employees of the possible health problems from chemical exposure. she was told that apple had no legal requirement to do so, but ashley was on to something. as it turned out, the building in which she worked for apple was built on a toxic waste site that was supposed to been managed by the defense giant northrop grumman, a carcinogen, called try coral. ethylene was known to have been disposed of there and had leaked into the soil. even the government admitted that the ground water at the site was contaminated. a government study in 2019 found the issue had been addressed, but then in 2021,

employees were found to have been exposed to pause. this fumes through cracks in the floor. actually filed complaints with the environmental protection agency and the national labor relations board. she also filed a whistle blower, complaint with the occupational safety and health administration and with the u. s . department of labor. and when she approached apple about correcting all of these problems, she was told her only option was simply to work from home. more whistle blowing was to follow, actually complained that some of apples internal policies on employee privacy, on the privacy of the public. and on the retention of documents and user data were unethical, she even filed complaints in the u. k. with the data protection information commissioner's office in the counter part office in brussels. and didn't dublin with the data protection commissioner. those complaints are still under investigation. not only did actually not receive any help, her satisfaction from apple, the company began to harass her in response,

she took the twitter to air her complaints. consequently, she was retaliated against repeatedly and was transferred in the end. she was fired . some of the complaints actually made are still being investigated on others. the national labor relations board found that she had told the truth and the apple had overstepped. its bounce had retaliated against her and had deprived employees of their constitutional rights. i have wanted to meet ashley gilbert for a long time and i'm very pleased to have her with us on the show actually welcome. it's great having you. thank you so much for having me. i'm excited to meet you too . oh, the pleasure is mine, and my goodness, there is so much to ask you when you decided to blow the whistle on wrong doing it, apple. you really decided to blow the whistle. tell us about how this whole thing got started. it was all about environmental issues at the beginning. what made you initially decide to make that complaint? yeah, it turned into something very, very complicated,

but it started into something very simple, which was, i moved into the new apartment complex and i got very ill immediately. i was on short term disability. i thought i could be dying doctor's or standing me for a bit on this is i have 7 months later i discovered the apartment was built on a toxic waste split up site. and then 2 years later, i find out that my employer at that time apple was operating a secret. somebody, conductor manufacturing plant outside our windows is entering a bunch of solar into our windows. um, so there was solid exposure of that was the root cause of my illness. and through that experience, i learned about the clean up sites. i learned about how to do that. and there's a lot of ways whether you're at work or just, you know, in your home that you can be so specific. make you very ill. i assumed i was not the only one who did and i was not. so i, under the, i did to figure out what's going on and report it to never been easy to use. so we

finally got to the bottom of it. it is being investigated what was implicated. but through this i kind of became what i call an arm chair expert cindy's cleanup site and environmental laws. so all of that was happening in 2020. i was not satisfied with the government responses, so i ended up publishing an extra day. what happened to me and asking for more intervention? and the beginning of 2021. and right at that time, an email comes into my inbox with apple saying that they want to test her office for me for intrusion. and that's all it says. but i had become an expert at this point, so i knew exactly what that term and i'm and yeah, i had briefly been informed that my apple office was something called a super sunday site by a friend who broke the are not at all. so i lived in that office since 2017 and she's like, you know, that's a really bad super fun to site. the kind of explained that it was about pollution and toxic waste, but i'd kind of put it aside. um and, but that all, you know,

the lights went off when i saw that email, that what they're saying is they want to test and see if that toxic waste from superfund site and the groundwater and slow was pushing up indoor, indoor air when we were at our desk and we were breathing it in. and through this experience, i also learned that in silicon valley to the most common chemicals, are track coral ethylene t. rush person agents and very, very dangerous. so from that email, i start looking to the documentation, start asking questions, i'm very dissatisfied with all the answers, i'm say, not just from my employers oversight of the office, but how the agent overseeing it, which is not at all that kind of neglected it weren't paying attention and then as soon as i start asking questions and identifying issues which the later confirmed, all my concerns were correct and they have the same concerns. apple started just, you know, trying to shut me out, retaliated, telling me not to tell anyone else. they didn't want me to tell the government what

they were doing. um, so, okay, awesome. choose from there. good lord, we should say to that a superfund site is a site that is so toxic. it's so dangerous that the environmental protection and ministration has to come in at a cost sometimes of billions of dollars to try to clean it up. but like any government bureaucracy, sometimes they do a great job. sometimes they do a terrible job. and it sounds like in this case they did a terrible job. a very interesting you what you said is correct, but like to add another angle, which we appreciate if someone that works in the federal government, there's a lot of politics about funding and to clean it up and especially considering a lot of these sites, even if not directly or the right, there's a lot of the stuff or is it was a lot of military operations. so how does the federal government force itself to clean up stuff when they don't want to? how do they force corporations do when corporations ultimately,

if they're big enough to just say no, i'm not going to do anything. so it's a lot of compromise influence. some funding, some tax, their dollars goes into trying to help clean this up, which is very demoralizing. when you will, the issue to companies with so much money made a massive should just clean it up. and it seems like the rest of your whistle blowing happened in very rapid succession after your initial revelations about the environmental issues. and the fact that apple was literally sitting on this toxic superfund site. what then led to your decision to make additional disclosures? yeah, so i was experience even started with the apartment and seeing the response to the government. you know what i just said. now i'm kind of thing of stockholm syndrome, of like let me explain why they tolerate companies to not clean this stuff up, but when it is all started, it was shocking to me that you could have this kind of pollution that science and medicine show can cause cancer until people don't even tell people they do the very bare minimum of cleaning it up. and then when you raise concerns,

even when you are very ill and all my symptoms turned out to be solid and exposure, all of them were diagnosed by an occupational exposure doctor is like all that is solid research. you don't have a mask, you don't cancer, you don't have an aneurism without, you know, all the other stuff as before. but even then the responses were very clear to me that these companies and even the government didn't really care if i lived or died . it was just kind of business and as i started looking into that more, this is a huge issue, especially for folks they don't have a lot of resources for me or reprogram discrimination along stocks like hot spots or in areas with black and native people with people living in poverty, but even less is so it's kind of like a big own sacrifice stands for the use of property or just to let some people that i asked me that was so jarling and upsetting and fundamentally changed me in the way that i viewed my relationship with these companies,

including my employer. so when my employers response to my questions about my office, especially after everything i've just gone through and they knew it was chemical exposure to uh, it showed me, they don't care if i live or die either. and in fact, they want to cover it up and make sure i don't tell any of my co workers that are housed could be a risk just because a liability. so for me, it just shifted by me where i lost any of that, you know, assume good intent or cognitive dissonance you have at work when you don't necessarily align with your employer. so use basically something kind of upset to you leave it to the side. and i was just done because they were, they saw me completely disposable i work, you know, 80 hour weeks for nearly 7 years. this company i did everything i could to try to help them with their products and problems in teams and make things better. and they literally are just like, don't tell other people that they're going to be cancer too. so as they started retaliating, i really, i had no rose colored glasses left,

and i'd love to know what, what was the reaction from your colleagues. you'd been at up at apple for almost 6 years, where people supportive after all this, this directly impacted them where they helpful to you. did they pull you aside privately and offer support or did they just put their heads down and walk away and try to protect themselves? so i was very unique and st. cultured by. there's my talk comparable to many other companies. if any they find themselves with extreme secrecy. they brag about all their x, the i a and say they're like the private sector, c i a. and so they really, the culture is based on not true information publicly, not sure, and information with each other. i'm not going things, i'm pretty sure they are using the id control system for our disclosures when they were coughing in a row, you know, so it's very departmentalized and that's when it's that most of our friends are coworkers, right? when you're told anything about your work and they started giving the service to

jail for basically we can see you just kind of keep it internal. so most of my friends were my co workers and the ones that work along with all of this were very supportive who they were outrage just along with me as everything that we're seeing . but then apple. so i may not have talked to my co workers to not tell anyone about what's going on, and i go along with it for a little while because i was terrified of them. sure. here. then i kind of break when they're retaliating more clearly covering up the environmental issues really pressing off till a day. and so i kind of the 1st taking a public was taking a public just to the communication tools of the company. and it's also a for apple that was public because they're so secretive. and there was just an outpouring of people who also have these or stories of trying to raise real concerns and just being immediately reevaluated upon and being covered up. so many people not to tell anyone. so there is a huge response there that was positive, but then there was also backlash from a lot of people that for some reason, are used to or rely on the system of secrecy, saying, are we doing your concerns about work conditions?

don't tell anyone. there's already backlash there and then when i was all ready to go in public in august when i went on twitter and just start sharing stuff. so it was clear, my employer was doing nothing helpful and just mostly the various. yes. so i start internal documents and time, you know, the public, what's going on i, there's also a mix. there were more co workers that came forward probably as well, and also share their stories. but then a lot of backlash, a lot of smears. one of the vision and apples and fueling that, of course, for the last couple years to try to get everyone to fight each other. because we have any hope of actually improving things as workers we need to organize. so they seem to be doing everything they can to not have us do that and all of their sectors. disney retail, isn't it? i'm sorry to interrupt you in the intern between your revelations and the corporate decision to try to push you out. what was it like for you inside apple where you kept at arm's length? did the company try to implement any changes based on your revelations?

or did they want to fight from the beginning human resources, for example, which was supposed to protect you? certainly didn't protect you. i'll also point out that apple ceo, tim cook, sent out a company wide email about you, that at least to my eyes seemed like a threat. yes. about one of the reasons i think i didn't even think that my installations would go anywhere. so it was immediately just documenting everything kind of go on and this would be lost to them. i would have to take the public because i raised real concerns about face the, my bosses only, not the telling one of my safety concerns. i go to h r and this is like the bare minimum of what a shower should do is like explain the labor laws to executive. but in fact, you were telling me it's against me openly and refuses to explain the safety productions to him that employees can talk about safety in when she's doing that. it just, it kind of showed me, okay,

everything's set up now to push me out. there not seem, it doesn't matter what my position was, what i complex, what might not, you know, network the months to your directors and the fees didn't matter. they were going to, it's near me, destroy me, push me out, find ways to fire me. and so they kept doing that. and that's, you know, it's come out. that's a very strong pattern from them. um and yeah, i closer to me getting fired. i, the bosses did it to office. one of them was giving me a bunch of projects that were set up a little to make everyone upset of me. and then the other ones are moving me from projects and emails. not responding to my emails, which are 2 of the things that they love to do and they situations. so yeah, i be removed from even my actual responsibilities. i'm being repeatedly told not have to go work or is not the organized. and then as i'm pushed out on leave within a couple of days, i'm hearing, there's meetings about me across your organization saying they're going to like talk about me. it's the next all him which was clear to me that i was gonna be

fired. i already knew that were gonna fire me, otherwise they're not talking about me while i'm at all hands. so you know, they're already showing everyone. okay. we're pretending ashley's out on this. we use that we're cleaning is not tentative. so we're clearly gonna fire her work there and for it. so at that point, a lot of people pull away. i start losing a lot of friends. they're scared, i don't blame them because it happens sick culture. it's a real fear of retaliation. and i've had to deal with that said last, most of my friends, they were co workers, the ones are still there, some of them even left the country. right? yes. so this is what i want to. i kind of says in addition to the retaliation, the environmental issues, the end, the age and the culture of secrecy, i felt charges about that. but the email that tim cooks that which i think definitely reference me, i think at least one other person and was definitely a threat to his entire staff. he said, but anything internally confidential and they will fire anyone who shares anything

internal. and he was referencing a meeting where he talked about pay equity and benefits. so the me now, you know, they come out to what we see. so have many very clear, like we are standing behind our culture. so i about church, you know, are we agree with me that email is a violation of federal law. most of apples and the asian employment policies also violate federal law. i sent them like 20 different documents, including the employment agreement i signed when i joined. and so they're working on it sounds like a complaint. now let's. if apple doesn't settle, it shouldn't go to court. an apple i expect is going to be use on dozens of charges against these policies because they're officially legal. and so i'm hoping it starts to help a see change at apple where employees can try to speed up a little bit. i think it was a very long time. no. because everyone's so used to secrecy and then somebody shouldn't feel. ashley. thank you very much. hold on to we are going to continue our conversation with apple whistleblower ashley gilbert about her

experience with a wide variety of whistle blowing at the tech giant. we're going to take a short break and then come back to talk about life after whistle blowing state to . 2 2 the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing as for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to living on mac. we have fabulous propaganda. you know, a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask a better. the answer is will be

the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with ashley gilbert, a whistleblower from apple, who called attention to environmental dangers at the world's biggest company as well as privacy concerns and other issues. and as you might expect,

she paid for her whistle blowing with her career. actually good to have you with us . thanks again for joining us. thank you, john. actually tell us about some of the legal issues involved in your whistle blowing. it seems to me that here you were making protected whistleblower disclosures. at the very least, the company should have been investigating your complaints, but as often happens they attack the messenger. apple is represented by one of the most powerful law firms in the world, or melvin in myers. did you have any representation? was there anybody out there to protect your interests or were you on your own? i was on my own and every way possible obviously, i think is there i issue would be huge corporations that have way too much control . and so for lawyers, they were all intimidated by how complicated the case was. and then apples notoriously, very difficult and poor. so they didn't want to go to work. they want to get an end,

the federal and i did not want to do that. i wanted to make sure that what they did was known as after fix the issues. so i ended up, i was halfway through law school, so i'm just taking it on representing myself. which allows me to be a bit more at dial 2 because there are a number of issues from environmental, the retaliation dose. ok, so what's the lowercase? so i can just research and learn, instead of having to have like 7 firms, which is what actually apple has. now, the firm you mention was the one of the 1st ones they were saying who sent me harassing emails about privacy concerns. but they've sense iron or, and m, w, e and morgan lewis and probably more firms. i don't even know about best partners. i 60 huge team. but i was fortunate enough that i will violated a number of laws agreed justly with a ton of documentation and evidence. and i was able to get that in hand. why things can be done on a, mary, i'm going to in every case i am currently 5. 015. they look, they lost 5. incredible, incredible. as only you know, i know, i'm sorry,

please go right ahead. oh i was going to say it's really david and goliath and it shows like the why. so if you challenge these companies, the lower be charge for that to include e mail. you mentioned they last in january of this year and or be set up i like that or why they hired in army and morgan lose attorneys including a previous i don't wanna be board member. so an executive, but the agency and somehow trying to do this like appeal outside of a normal appeal process. so i had the not only respond to those of some arguments of used to lose, but also say if you're violating the constitution in the industry to procedure that we stop and i want, but it's like why i'm a licensed attorney and i have to, if i previous, easy to read. so i, you don't, i think they're just shows why these companies get away with this stuff. there's not a lot of people who are equipped to try to do this, and those layers was an embryo. most of them are captured by companies like apple,

whether it's funding advertising or they need an up and an app store or many your product has to be able to post it. there's always influences that just make people not want to challenge our who. right. and as i mentioned a few minutes ago, whenever the government investigated your allegations, they found that you were telling the truth. several of the things that you revealed are still being investigated. but in the end, apple threw you out. was there anything at all that you could do about that? i know that you have a lawsuit pending, you have multiple las, it's pending. but as best as you're able, can you tell us a little bit about the personal impact on you and how you've begun recovering? of course i want to say like, not only was i right, i was more right than i knew. so as i've been doing player class and trying to figure out what actually happened, i wasn't spend it just a couple days after the epa informed awful, they would be inspecting my office due to my disclosures about apple circle. now, why? and that was the state of justification with it actually told us what you're doing

. we need to come see they got a bunch of issues about in trouble. and then i was fired, an apple kid, that inspection and all the issues from it you tried to. but i found out i lose a number of those type of story is where it was already really bad and it was far worse even than i knew. so as i'm digging, i'm pressing these agencies and really trying to make sure the issues are addressed . i have retaliation cases of u. s. department of labor and, and i'll be in california department of labor, but it's taking a very long time. i and i kind of see these bottles as a primary, secondary and tertiary where the primary was all the environmental stuff. secondary was seeing all the retaliation and reporting the retaliation and trying to organize with people to get that address and try to get them to stop by at least a little bit. and then the tertiary is just realizing help you protections whistleblower is actually out of this country i, i would not actually use the word protection for any of our law, right. you have a chance maybe of a remedy. you're after. the fact if you go during the adjudication process,

that will be traumatizing on in what you're doing. but i'm trying to bring to life just how i, you know, it's working. it's designed by the industry, but for whistle blowers at destroying the us. we're already traumatized. we're already ostracized, going years without a government saying this person should not have been fired. just that statement. you know, you have trouble finding were people that your credibility, you like even if you decide you want to do with the lower theater. so that open question of like was this person right? i was lucky enough that i got for your documents way earlier home saying like i was right. so that's where that's, it's ordinarily rare. so i been writing about the current state of whistle blowing, both with legal and posing nancy, but also just the emotional term. well, i went there. what so many of us do where you just feel like you last you put your place in the world and the call yourself, you don't know how to fit in. lots of depression, i use of all my savings. i still can't find a job. i am pro se on all my cases,

so i'm doing that while i'm trying to find work and then advocating along the way. it's when just kind of thrown. and i'm one of those whistle blowers where i never even thought i was, was the blowing at 1st. and it seemed like just something you'd need to do, right, like rated like that. and then, you know, then you're carried on a stop for your life is never the same. so i'm on that path. and as i'm seeing things where i'm hoping things could be improved in some way, even if it's education, i'm trying to do that. so publishing articles, speaking about the experience and really trying to help people understand that with a whole or who may come for there's a very high percentage, their life will just be destroyed. whether no right or wrong. yeah. and then the 70 just pretty darn close to 100 percent 99.9. yeah. actually go big. thank you so much for joining us and thank you for your courageous whistle blowing. thank you john. thank you. thank you. i actually give it blew the

whistle at the largest company in the world. apple. it can't possibly have been easy. you heard it yourself. it could not have been a decision to be taken lightly, but it's always worth it in a perfect world. we wouldn't need whistleblowers, we wouldn't need them because companies, governments, and individuals would do the right thing. they wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, and try to cut corners. they would have the best interest of the public in mind, but that is not real life. we have whistle blowers because we need the we have whistle blowers because at least somebody goes into a government or into banking or into the corporate world with a clear cut sense of right and wrong. yes, the price of whistle blowing can be very high. but where would we be without be actually gilbert except the world. i'm grateful for people like her thanks for joining us for another episode of the width of lowers. i'm john to reaku. we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2

2 2 the a hi, acceptance, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously . why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do you have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you, i'm comfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again,

you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way inside the it's high time to reform the existing global governance architecture as soon as possible. it hasn't met the requirements of the ear off for a long time versus 4 minutes the pushes for a reform of global decision making, stressing that the un needs and overall, while groups like briggs now leading the way, also this our cds america, ukrainian conscript, sent on a suicide to charge a cut down along the front line parties, broadcast the ever calls from the region to debunk west and on ukrainian claims. a guest troops have breached russian. defense is the washington of points and you want stock forwards a to keep us following demands from republicans from all over sides because his reports of ukraine fatigue overshadowed presents events. his visits.