oh, it's much like the public, sanchez, i've been to a news now for 30 years into languages all over the world. here in the united states interviewed for president's working for major us television networks. and i believe that news should be honest and direct and impactful, and this is direct impact. the b u. s. decision to deployed cluster bombs in ukraine. seems to be putting a spotlight not just on the in cities weaponry, but you know, what else it's doing. it's putting an emphasis on our foreign policy, double speak, cluster bombs are banned by a 123 countries and condemned categorically by human rights groups worldwide.

here's what makes their usage. so roundly shutting by the way. it's, it's, it's essentially a missile, right? but it contains thousands of little bonds, and those little bonds are bomblets as they are actually called spread out over a large area. but see, that's not the end of it. the real problem is, as, as the us originally discovered in south east asia, 30 percent of the bomb which they don't explode when they hit the ground, like they're supposed to. that means they can just sit there for, for a year or more years sometimes until later, when a person often a child who comes in contact with is killed or maimed. the children are particularly susceptible to this. you know, why? because these little bomb, what's they look like toys?

looks like a little boy so, so, so they come up and they pick them up and not knowing it's a bomb. it just blows up on children. in fact, because so many civilians have been killed by a cluster bomb. let's many now call the use of the weapon, a war cry. and we all cry. in fact, here's president by who's a former secretary, then sappy this is in february of last year, suggesting that very same or illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bomb senior russia. if that's true, what is the next step of this is ministration? is there a red line for how much will be tolerated again in this manner that illegal potentially it is, it would be, i don't have any confirmation of that. we have seen the reports. if, if that were true, it would potentially be a war crime. obviously there are

a range of international for that would assess that. um, so certainly we would look to that to be a part of that conversation. that video by the way of jump sacking had its gone viral. i mean, globally viral viewers all over the world, citing it is an example of really hard to deny right, overwhelming hypocrisy. because here now is or former boss explaining why he is sending these cluster bombs to ukraine. what made you change your mind and decide to give them these weapons to think through it and it was very difficult decision on my part. by the way. i discuss this with our allies discussions with our friends up on the hill. and we're in a situation where you crank continues to be brutally attacked across the board by munitions of babies. cluster munitions that are have dug, rates that are very, very low. i'm a very high that are dangerous civilians. number one, number 2,

and the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. the ammunition that is to call and 155 millimeter weapons. this is a, this is a war relating to munitions and they're running out of those and that ammunition and we're low on it. look with all due respect to our president, let's not be fooled by the. yeah, but you know, dolly g, explanation, this is really a special circumstance this time. in fact, let's be clear when it comes to your. busy foreign policy cluster bombs are really the norm, not the exception, the norm, according to the cluster munitions coalition. but us has by far used cluster bombs more than any other country in the world. we have used cluster bombs, munitions with devastating consequences and conflicts all over the world. cambodia

allows vietnam 67. these were using a rock and quite and saudi arabia 1991 and the former yugoslavia, serbia montenegro costs about 1999 using enough data stay in 20012002 in a rock, 2003 and most recently in the m in 2009. the us also supplied cluster munitions to as well, which they used in combat against lebanon, syria that we produced and transferred hundreds of thousands of cluster munitions to at least 30 countries. gomez for emphasis, i'll name them for you. it's argentina and australia and by rein in belgium and canada, and egypt and denmark in france and germany and greece and hon. tourists and italy and japan and jordan and south korea and morocco and then the other ones in norway and oman, pakistan and poet, and saudi arabia and spain, and tylen and turkey,

and the u. a. e and the u. k. not to mention indonesia. now beyond the hazardous of the comments, suggesting that we don't mind what killing innocent civilians even if perhaps their children as long as we can punish russia. there is another reason why many americans are against the use of cluster munitions. you say it's not just the opposition that often gets killed by cluster bombs. it's our own troops. look at what happened repeatedly in a rock, american pilot scattered thousands of cluster bomb looks indiscriminately. and in so doing, they placed on mark indiscriminate and long lasting mine fields in the past of their own ground forces. while it wasn't reported at the time, at least at the time that it happened, we now know of at least 18 incidents were unexploded cluster munitions occurred during desert storm killing, meaning scores of us troops and marines. here is our russian president,

poor miss responding. he says, it's a sign that ukraine is going to stop piles of shells supplied by the west that the an exceeding, right. which is why they're meeting these costs are bobbsey suggests. he also warns, somewhat ominously, russia has the same whether it's a short message to that's what i say. if it did, i say the stuff that she needs, that plus or as leech and the water or the non castillo thing, way people are self position of or the and will do, sir, but i to a new deal with him yet. but i mean you eat when else you both are when you have had humans to just put down the the easiest thing you can watch or put it on the po to me. no, you want us to somebody at the bus if not, and i'm ready when you deal with. nope. and you should just be able to bring me in . yeah. support different out for me now. so williams and simpler, but nicely to kind of use and joy to get started talking about this is mark

sla boda. he's on the international relations and does security and list and you can check them out by the way. he's very popular on youtube with this channel the real politic with marshall about a mark. thanks so much for joining us. a rick, thanks for having me. it's always a modern, a pleasure to be on the show. what are the things that i find interesting about our president's comment about, respectfully president biden's comment is that there seems to be a suggestion that the situation in ukraine is already so terrible. and both sides apparently have been using mass of weaponry against each other. but what difference would it make if we were to add some more weapons and throw them into the mix as well? it seems to be what he's saying. i've never quite heard of president or a world leaders say something like that. i'm not sure i'm comfortable with that. are you? well, i think it's a clear sign of desperation. more than anything else. all military experts, you name them agree that this has become a war of attrition,

not just between russia and the us back to give poetry jamie ukraine, but between russia and nato. the fact that a war of attrition fought largely through artillery. right. western papers have reported that a time 70 to 90 percent of ukrainian military casualties have been a result of artillery, shrapnel, or explosive. now, here's the problem. russia has the key of regime out gun with artillery shells, according to their own top general valerie's illusion. a $10.00 to $1.00 that it is despite nato throwing every spare. um, artillery piece howitzer and artillery shells a cord into the conflict of several european states have stripped their own

military. it's including the united kingdom in denmark, estonia, you know, of, of every single artillery piece and shells. an endless amount of shells are needed . the coverage him was firing between 5 ivan, 6000 artillery shells a day. and russia was firing between 50 and 60000 artillery shells a day, and that's before the height of, of the current of a duel offenses on both sides of the conflict. so if we are at that point, war of attrition, key word, how would cluster bombs change that equation? can you explain what i think i know where you're going with this? but i'd like to hear you put it in your words and for our view for our viewers who are watching you right now. yeah, it wouldn't. but certainly the coverage of beam has already used cluster munitions in this conflict. in fact, human rights watch and even the new york times reported on this back in

2014, when the camera dream uh almost immediately after seizing power and t, as in 2014 started reading, re reading, cluster munitions down on their own civilian okay, i guess i, i, but let me stop you for a minute because i, i really want to get this question. i get it. ukraine has used them, at least according to reports. i've seen, in fact, these, this type of weaponry has been used in this, in this conflagration, this conflict before. but that's not my question. i want to know as a citizen of the united states of america. why my president, my government has made a decision that by doing this it can alter the war, maybe when the war for the side that they're on, that it can somehow be a real differentiator. how and that's not the reason they're doing it. they're doing it out of desperation because they don't have any artillery shells left.

these cluster munitions are in a 155 millimeter artillery shell jackets. they want to fly here something even if it's not the best mission for the particular battlefield use. sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. they're not very good on the offensive. as you notice in your beginning intro, that if you're firing and creating and a rods mine field in front of your troops in a trench and then sending your own troops on an offensive into that trench, you're sending your own troops into your own self created mind feel right, that's not smart. use of cluster munitions, but they're using them because nato, the us, even us allies. israel, south korean japan have already run high all of their artillery stock piles of a 155 millimeters shelves. big their industrial complex can't ramp up to meet the demand because they haven't been geared up for this type of land centric artillery

heavy conflict for decades. so they're in the soup continue. so throwing something 3rd, tapping cluster munitions in artillery shells. so it sounds like, by your definition, desperation means that short of this usage of these cluster munitions, they would have nothing else left, of course, save. you know, the most dangerous weapons in the world. that would be the nuclear weapons that obviously we are. we have no plans to use, right? that these the key point here, i think you, i think you've hit it right, the hammer or the nail right on the head. where do we escalate from here? the cambridge game starts using ever increasing amounts of cluster munitions. russia is already reported to have start using them. they have much bigger supplies of cluster munitions that they have largely refrained from using thus far in the conflict. right with greater varieties. where does the us escalate next to?

well ok, so we're already talking f sixteens, attack and long range missiles, chemical weapons, us as large supplies of chemical weapons, tactical nukes stealth bombers. what's, what's, what's next? what is after cluster munitions? where do we escalate from here? the, the intensity of the. 1 conflict right now is the most intense that it has been in a year and a half of the conflict, right? it's ever increasing. it's ever increasing intensity more armaments, more troops and the results for nato's. you know, proxy forces have not been any great progress at all on this great much ballyhooed offensive. so let what do you do next? let me look at it. let me put the question and look at it another way from your in moscow. right now you read the papers of moscow, you see what the sense is there with the people and the government. is there

a sense then, that if nato is running out of weaponry, to a certain extent, i'm sure, and the united states as well. and the other allies are as well. and obviously ukraine is because they've got enough of a got help from nato in the united states. then doesn't that create an enormous opportunity for russia to just go ahead and go in and perhaps do what they originally wanted to do in this theater? which is why russia is already beginning a large defensive right now. largely on reported in the western media in the loo gone. sk region towards coupon skin. lamont, according to the queue ever seen some 100000 troops, 900 tanks, 2000 pieces of artillery in multiple loans, rocket systems. and they're already making more progress than the average him has in the last 7 weeks of their offensive. there is no incentive now, for russia to go to the negotiating table, nato keeps escalating,

but they're running out of things to escalate with. how do you fight and artillery war without artillery shells? cluster munitions, okay. they can be used sometimes, but they're not always the best tool for the job. russia is seeing nato tapped out and um, they are not prepared to back down. in fact, they're a neutral war. goals have only tough and since the conflict has begun, what are your expect that the reaction is going to be in the next week? so maybe the next month from president zelinski regarding the vist that we're talking about right now didn't it? is he privy to the fact that his suppose in avenue mission in this war is being depleted on a, on a, on a regular basis. and that soon he may not have any place to turn of course is, i mean the, i think you can hear that in the ever increasing shrillness of,

you know, his rhetoric of his demands of his, you know, showing forever more weapons ever more money. i think he is desperately aware, i think it's got to be causing a really emotional problems for him at this point. but his prop, again, bubble has built up so much that he can't dare puncture it and admit that kind of reality to who is his own people, his own troops. okay, stay right there. okay. i think this is a fascinating conversation. we're going to continue it in just a moment. i'd like to continue this conversation with you. what. what do you think of this? i'd love for you to reach out to me on twitter or my handle is rick sanchez, tv. rick sanchez, tv, and i'll be looking for you right there and we can have a conversation. when we come back up, there is a strange partnership developing in congress. and we're going to tell you who the bed fellows are scared right there.

the vis. c, i a program, same wasn't, don't need to create fearless and ruthless soldiers, but also to control the minds of thousands of unsuspecting people with narcotics. you should start to really sure what's your opinion of warning each. it will mostly show assess dot, when you put the instruction muted to a full in the way. so i'm glad you asked me to call me on monday, just for pamela. they on

the new modem, the moon on the printer. no, they chased a booster. mileage is under the impression that the only the deal is extra, but the one is most of them are going to do right now is place where they put me off the c i a m k ultra project involving the use of special drugs for military and political purposes, 1st on my done and then in the ukrainian army, i've shifted towards a large scale technical trials, but ongoing to stop any time soon. the ad, welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. look, it's not a huge, but we're starting to see some push back. i present

a button even from his own party on this issue. here is congress on and barbara lee coming down hard on biding, and the use of cluster bombs. cost of bonds should never be used. that's crossing the line. uh, once you see what takes place, we know what takes place in terms of cluster bombs, being very dangerous to civilians. they don't always immediately explode. children can step on them. that's, that's a line. we should not cross. i am here now is what's even more interesting democrats and republicans would normally agree on absolutely nothing these days in the united states. they can't agree on what they have for lunch. are finding some agreement on this topic. here's republican now congressman mag gates, saying that he will join the democrats on, on this issue of cluster box. i'm going to be the republican co sponsor of the

jacob's amendment before the house rules committee. we have an opportunity with bipartisanship to stand against the war mongering bites. and back with us now is geo political and the military analysts stop marshal boat a. mark, thanks so much for being with us. good. what, what do you think of um, okay, i'm not. i would, let's not make more of it than it is, but uh, what you're starting to see some resistance and push back in congress. you saw what barbara lee had to say, though, she's always felt that way about wars on necessary wars. one of the few, unfortunately in our country who does. but now you have mag gates republican and there are a few others out there who are saying, look, we shouldn't be doing this is the think this could be the beginning of a groundswell. rick, i, i tell you, i think it's nice to see right from the left margin of the democrats and you always say from the trump margin of the republican field.

right. it's nice to see, but unfortunately there's still a broad bipartisan consensus on both sides that are the middle ground between those 2 tiny margins. it's a lot larger that are fully in support. and in fact, pushing the bite administration for more, for ad sixteen's for attack him, you know, for a, you know, if, if they could port cluster munitions inside of attack homes and launched them from f sixteens, they would. so it's nice to see, but i don't think it's i'm maybe i'm just too cynical to expect any type of real push back to come from inside the belly of the beast. so lacking that, it seems like the only thing that would make sense in terms of pushback

against president vitamin has been astray sion on another war need. i say this does have looked at me any different than vietnam, afghanistan, iraq, syria, i mean, libby. uh yeah, man, i could go on and on. where enough americans finally say, is there anything we can do to try and resolve this thing is there, is there a way we can bring about some kind of peace deal? why don't we sit down with both putting and zalinski? why do we. busy only sit down with so lensky is that a crazy question that i should be asking or other americans should be asking? you remember, how many americans protested against the iraq or quite a bit and it never got any coverage to millions deleon's pension it. it had no effect on the conflict because there was only a 32nd v o, a 32nd voiceover on the nightly news. when millions of people show up in new york

city or in washington dc protesting a war. if nobody knows the street and falls in the forest more and you realize better than any one what a mano lives in support of u. s. foreign policy that the us mainstream media outlets are. so i don't see room for any type of radical change, whether it's from the populace, from the 4th, the state of the media, from within, you know, the bowels of, of the governments of the deep state itself. i mean, take a look at how syria ends, right? syria hasn't ended in any type of diplomatic resolution. u. s. military still ill, legally occupies eastern syria. turkey occupies the north of it, the syrian government with rock. so ok, you, you know, has control of the rest of the country. but with the us sitting on the oil and wheat fields, you know, there's no hope of recovery. there's no peace deal. there's no talking to the enemy

because you've demonized them and caricature them to such an extent as part of your, your foreign policy, that it isn't possible then to lower your self to conducting diplomacy with an enemy that you have the villain eyes to a cartoonish degree can we agree? let's get back the cluster bumps can, can we agree that cluster bombs should be treated if not like nuclear weapons. damn near close to it. a military guy, right. um, i mean, you're older and 5 years later picking them up and dying and you know, the thousands and all there. i read a story recently that said that they are still finding the in, in levels the us dropped so many cluster munitions on the country. a plane load of them every 8 minutes for almost a decade. that at the current rate of removal the government,

their estimates bill have completely cleared their territory of us, cluster munitions and 800 years. that's, that's incredible. as much as it is shameful and, and as citizens of this planet, we should be responsible for allowing anybody to do that kind of crap. i fix, to be honest. i'm more worried about depleted uranium ammunition that has of genetic affects causing birth mutations uh, in subsequent generations, as we've seen in iraq and serbia, it does a mens o ecological damage. it is a weapon of mass, ecological destruction as well. but, but the depleted uranium ammunition has been supplied to the cambridge mean by the united kingdom and the u. s. has been talking about it as well that has also entered into the conflict. and here's the, here's the problem are we, we, i remember when i was younger, and so were you that we saw these great meetings between people like gorbachev and

the premieres of trying to signing all these deals with guys like reagan and, and, and, and they were actually working not so successfully but working toward agreements where they said let's shake hands and say, we won't ross, that line, we won't do this, we won't do that. we won't use this kind of weapon. seems like today we're going in the opposite direction and it doesn't seem to me. and that's not just to blame my country because i think russia and china and the us, all of the large countries on this planet have not have the, i guess the willingness to come together to do this. and they, shawn, i'm sure i think they're in, during the cold war there was at least reals of the game, right? yeah. that were more or less respected because both sides had a degree of respect and fear of each other. and, and certainly i think roger, enjoying a respect and fear, the united states,

the united states through this uni polar moment of the ninety's. they lost that fear in respect of other countries. they came to believe in us primacy and germany everywhere in the world. and they don't think they should have to negotiate with countries that they see as their ideological opponents. and there are more inferiors. you say a moral inferiors drawer. that's a primed tenant of the us idea. ology, the supremacist ideology of us exceptionalism, us believes that it is systemically and morally superior to every other country on earth, therefore it can do no wrong mark. so about i'd like to be able to talk to you. i know you know, the study of this stuff on a daily basis, so thank you so much for your, for your insight. we appreciate it. thanks for having me. before we

go, i want to remind you of our mission and it's simple. really. i want to try and disable the world. we've got to stop living in these little boxes where you know, once i doesn't understand what the other 1 may believe or see to still live in boxes. truth is everywhere. palmer chapter. i'll be looking for you again. right here where i hope to provide direct impact by gully the

there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case of the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to help me living on that. we have very close propaganda. you know a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions ask a better. the answer is will be the gave us a little so what is the massive displays of brutality. okay, so for see do georgia.