the, the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk were all things are considered. i'm peter live out . in many ways the west ukraine proxy war and russia is all about narratives. first deployed was russia's unprovoked attack. then it was admitted, there was nato's expansion is that served as a catalyst starting the conflict. now we're told it's all about the future conflict with china. take your pick. it's all boils down to western to germany, the

process of being russia and china. i'm joined by my guess, carl john in raleigh. he's a political analyst is doreen and host of the silk and steel podcast. and in london, we have a real consent that he is the founder of a k consulting and a foreign affairs analyst are cross up rules that affect gentlemen jumping in time you want. and i always appreciated. all right, let me start out with carl in, in raleigh. as i said in my introduction, we've seen over the last 20 months, these, this change of the sig ways in, in narratives and how to describe what was go, what is going on now in ukraine 1st, that was the unprovoked attack. and then a few weeks ago, 10 days ago, spelt in brooks as well. yeah. does this happen because of nato expansion and now particularly coming out of the united states, is it, oh, this is a, this is a, a right just conflict because it's a, it will divide brush it from china will degrade chunk the china is ally, russia. i mean it's, it's very interesting how we've got to this point because those that wanted cold war 2 point, oh, well, they've certainly got it, haven't they, carl,

a yes indeed. i mean, at this point, they're just throwing see she's on the wall to see what sticks. and they are trying to come up with different reasons why we need to send hundreds of $1000000000.00 to ukraine, to fund the weapons of munitions, to ukraine, to fight the russians. first of fort, wes is not able to defeat russia. second, why is there a need to have a hostile relationship with russia or china? these are never explained to the public because there's not even a public debate about it. it's just a given that we somehow must be engaging, hostile confrontation with both nuclear superpowers, russia and china. this is frankly insane. we need to have more discussion about the, about this ad, the, the administration, you washington. they need to come clean to explain why they're doing this, but of course they won't because the real reason they're doing this is to continue

to follow tax payers money to the military industrial complex, just like to wondering what sort of set of time this on wasn't about award that you was planning to window ask, and this time it was about to follow taxpayers money into the military industrial complex. and this is what we're seeing again in ukraine. i don't know on the, on the same note here. i mean, it seems to me now in retrospect that this was, i planned forever more just as carl is explained to us here. i mean, the griffith ended in afghanistan 20 years pretty good. gripped but the grips out for you, ukraine. now you're getting into the big number category, okay. and we, we know that from a, a briefing that was given a few days ago to congress is that there's no timeline here. and the amount of money that is needed will be end. let's hear. this is a shirley and a forever war with washington doesn't want to end and end up the added advantages. lindsey graham says, you know, no americans are dying, but

a lot of the ukrainians are en route. go ahead. oh yes, visa. um, i do agree with you, but 1st of all, i have to start with um, making, you know, very clear on not paying attention to media negative and paying attention to a bigger picture, which is a both of it stopped from the both of his talk through the husband of the 1992 to new york times a tv says that the only superpower in the world can be united states. according to this doctrine ever since that time, as edward's um, kind of the, of the time a senator from united states pointed out, it wasn't a clear cold for the 21st century americans imperialism that no country kind or should accept. but this is the most the motive, so from the in united states in washington dc, regardless of what the particular uh,

president will be in the office or the government. i mean, the politicians, what they will say in the, in the public. obviously we remember the, the big chain, you know, about the time and clean power we're trying to, you know, some how a manage the crisis, all of the kids on the approval for big stockton, but the ever since 1990 to dispense. and we have seen this clearly, we have our own stuff, america as it is, will not allow a russia to be a competitor or a china, whether it is possible in that capacity to, to, to make this happen is be on the question. but what i'm trying to say is that regardless what is the media and they rated regardless of what calls all said about the america should come clean. i mean america never complete with, with the intentions of us, as we all know,

america's of motors of on the east to be a sole superpower in the world. a nice thing, the, the is food 5. to think that the, i'm any elections and you know, i could say would change this because the no range of a gemini, of imperialism is the only country that is, has the ability or a privilege to set the rules. and in this case, the, in a level international order is the united states and is the countries like china, old russia stand in the way. this creates a, a huge problem and the potential ingredients for the complex are in place. so this is my understanding of the current situation. i think your point about the world of it's doctrine is actually spot on. and i remember very clearly when it was rolls out, was scoffed out. it was actually made a made fun of,

but in fact it became policy. and you're also right. is it, it doesn't matter who's in the oval office, this continues. but karl, i will push a little bit back against that. i think, i think narratives are important because narratives are used to sell it to the public. okay. and we've seen um, you know, the, the, like, particularly the political right in the united states. you know, the problem with the c. so you paid, let's say you say it pays me, they never talked about a china is being communist until it became a threat. and, but i think narratives are really important because that's how you sell it to the public. and the republicans in the united states. they will be on board for this if they can say, well, if, if this is against russia and it hurts china, okay, we're all in. that is a segue carl. i agree. absolutely. because so there is a divide in united states, whereas the republicans want to have worked with china and the democrats want to have worked with russia. so there are some planners say, well,

why can we do both come early, literally saying that united states must prepare to have a war with russia and china, which is absolutely insane. and right, right now, this of all this excuse is really because there has been a space captured by the military industrial complex in the united states. you know, us likes to say it's the leader of the free world. it's a world's greatest democracy, but we have what we have in us right now is a popular see a government wrong for the wealthy. by particularly the wealthy leads that owns the webpage. manufacturers makes the re fee on lockheed martin and boy, and the country is now being run for their profit. and this is why we must continue to engage even more across the world. you know, 1st off the amazon, you rock and libya, syria and now ukraine. so, so it really didn't matter except right now i think they're biting more than they

can chew because russia in china, they're not, you rocks, they're not libya, they are armed with, well, well talk carl, you must be the be a watch or of this program because i've been saying this for years. ok, the united states only gonna address right now. a lot of united states has never had to confront a peer adversary. they have with russia, and this is something new. and it's about working out the way they expect to go ahead and loved him of the site. sure. uh, i mean, uh, well, uh, according to the, to the, the modern plans. i mean, obviously they, they the cost of the plan the, they make the projections about the, uh, single future about the rules and so as a whole. so they need a new draft. i mean, they need more people. uh, and in order to join the army. um the topic is the um, the quality of the people that can join the army. you know, the, was a sweeping around the western was especially in the united states states. i mean

the of, of the city, the well, the lot of, uh, uh, discipline, the drug addiction. all that, all sorts of mental illnesses. so say this mainly. uh sir. uh, i mean this is the business which is the and these, all the facts i've had that we know and so and so forth. but we have to understand other people. i like pull both of, it's in all the neo conservatives and you can add to the cult of insanity, you liberals, people, and same. so regardless where the, the facts and the, the states status all this and shows all the other way around. like, for instance, like cause of the very beginning is that it was impossible for you for you to win the war. i mean, just recently, a president zip is the least, he said, and he's one of many of the numbers. speech is not without the with you pain will, will, won't be destroying, will be defeated, which is always to any, any,

any effect fits in grey. the person who has a child, students who attended high school, i'm going to school with some at some point, is the fact that the same people, not mucous of this, they, they, they are treated by decide tricity thoughts took to total, was russia to, with the china and the greed because these, well, our commercial was the, was full risk. hello susan, the wholesale full, the market share. so of the by understanding basis. but you know, america, it's really been hijacked by the people who are well and for the before we go to the baker i, i agree with the reason there, but i think there's an element of hubris as well, in moral superiority. that's very much part of this message. they, you know, in china and russia are, are, you know, you know, culturally inferior, you know, the west is the best. i think that's very much part of the 15 seconds before we go to the break, go ahead as well. oh yeah, i agree with you. i mean,

we know that the international relations as a discipline is racially charged. i mean, don't numerous academic books about the bases have been racial, you know, destructive occasion within the national relation. it's so when russia as an insult is treated as us. yeah. take the i have to jump here gentlemen, we have a hard break. and after that hard grades, we'll continue our discussion on russia and china and state. the . i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show your mind,

anticipation. we should be very careful about visual intelligence at the point, obviously is to create a trust rather than fit the various job. i mean, with the artificial intelligence, we have somebody in the team in the a robot must protect this phone. existence was alexis, the russian states never is as tight as one of the most sense community best most. i'll send some of the must be the one else calls question about this,

even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia to day and split the r t spoke neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services for the question, did you say steven twist, which is the welcome back across software, all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt dramatically. we're discussing russia and china of the . okay. to go back to carl and raleigh carl, i am older than you. i'm older than ad rail, so i have a little bit of wisdom on my side in memory. okay. but you know, i'm

a child of the cold war. literally, you know, the entire cold war. i lived through it and they had something, i guess people forgotten about. it was called they taught. why can't the west have they talk with russia and china and other countries? the one that's not on the agenda. okay. all we get is this kind of joseph burrell. nonsense, that we're the garden and you're not, you're the jungle. that is a very primitive way of looking at the world, and not to even considering peace and peaceful coexistence is an insult to the times that we live in co head. carl. it's about jobs and careers. i mean, why do people like joseph? we're all even have a job in the founder lane. uh, people like that. what do they do? exactly except asking us miles east washington. i mean, you know, called carl carl david worth. he's a mouthpiece for his zalinski. i mean, it gets worse to get thing. keep going, carl. what the, the, the whole,

the whole edifice of nato exist just to come to rochester, if rush you west and russia or china or to become friends. you're going to throw out all these natal bureaucrats, all the think tankers, autumn jobs. so it's, is there, there is, they're all self interest in order to maintain their salary, their living standards. they must perpetuate war and they must continue to show for this more we was, this is, this is very unfortunate back, but deep, but also us. so we have talked about, there's a lot of hubris, you know, why do us the empire act and wait? they do, well, why do dogs eat fishes? because they tell us sell like you could throw its weight around because of it. yeah, yeah. he's used to throw his weight around without calling to resistance. well, this time is different because russia and china is much more, is much more appear near peer competitor to the united states than anything us as

in culture before. and i need to remind people us have never really won a war against a near competitor. you know what we're to, it's a soviet union that did most of the heavy lifting us did do quite a bit in a pacific war. but then japan wasn't appeared a competitor of the united states. and now us be speaking to fight russia and china, your co work got to they thought you could win. but guess what, today's russia in china is not the soviet union of yes, through years today, we're looking at the breaks that has a larger, larger economy that all of the g 7 combined. this is why there's a little a panic also in washington. and are you working capital? they're trying to preserve the gym, the lesser and a gemini, at any cost, including waging up very terrible proxy work ukraine. yeah. well as well also. uh it would be, uh uh, it would be a shame if we didn't remember what happened exactly almost

a year ago. let me think. oh, the destruction of the north stream pipelines. okay. of course. no one will. i guess we'll never know. you know, that's, you know, one of those great mysteries of the cosmos, but the, the eco would carl was saying to maintain that had gemini, you're willing to damage your so called friends, go ahead and london a well does well, the law stream to the bottom line a terrorist attack is it bit but well it was one of the greatest commercial terrorist attacks and the western history that we know. and i, i do believe is the germans have dignity, having some germans. i'm sure that they are over there. and this is a ticking bomb dot the united states set one year ago. and it will blow into the full collective west face in the coming months or

years. and i will lay the ground that passed away the ground full full of the night to dismantle it. goes go, i mean i, i do a lot of the pregnancy. i'm not the lead this other as it is. well that many what they call it a dream. it remains to be seen. it remains to be seen nice. i agree with your son to ment. okay. but to have what i refer to him is sergeant schultz standing next to biden, you know, i mean a, i mean, the absolute complete full. he was, he was made out of, he made himself a full, okay. and, and he just stood by. so i hope that there will be consequences. karl, you know, nature always says nature, always the defense of alliance. ok, well it looks like it wants to militarize asia and going into confront, encounter china will. china is not gonna take that sitting down like to know that different than russia as well. uh i. i was not aware of north atlantic now

except speak spanish twos as i was trying to see. but realistically natal, you've been with the war a proxy. where are you kidding against russia? what realistically can natal do in china, in a place that sold far wrong from europe, they have to fight what's still called the tyranny of distance is just to ferry all the materials to be called to, to fight in china sprung yard essentially. and let's not forget, china is a world's factory, china's industrial capacity door for even that of the united states. and right out of us just basically come prowling, it's fall vassals, european bass. so to site on long it's war with china because us know by itself you cannot win against china. and now your opinion leaders like bounder lane, like joseph bar out there, committed suicide for you. you because us use this, essentially cannibalizing is allied to sure is still showing up is onto the 1st

part capacity. that's what we have seen after the bombing of north streams, all the unit, jeremy industrialists, now they have the tab for united states because they no longer have access to cheap rushing gas as well as well. i mean, i get it's, i'm glad that was brought up because i liked cannibalizing allies, and that's exactly what's going to happen. i mean, the europe is being the industrialized. i, i don't see it as in much of an asset. if it is, if it's the industrialized poor in recession all of the time, what kind of waiting is that, andrew? well, there's a certain full for the united states. i mean, it's a 11 competitor, potential competitor down. and we know that going back to the most true question, is that for united? so why don't the greatest stressful the united states in depth perspective was a close alliance between german economy and russia. so once you have you up down and you know, for, for john and companies moving to a, you know,

from production to united states that the china to any other countries. yeah. they, they, duster lives in the europe is no longer uh, from the united states. i would say i would go even further the united states never proceed. you, but europe as an online, it was a us, at the corner of the, a bustle, approximate. so if you're a mazda and about so the relationship is slightly different on the dynamic between friends. we never been friends and, and i'm the united states. i mean, the americans know this and you're in europe is also in the service only than the the, the, the so called charles's browse and others who been put in place because you have to, you know, i think i prefer to go about measuring the spot in you, you have all the creation of the united states in order to unified europe on the flag and, you know,

the continent to be easily managed by united states. so you can union is an american construct, i would say, uh so um, yes, i mean you're being union has come up with that kind of blogs. you roku within countries of whether you will be in countries a key to be come on board, come you belies, i'm not sure we can see the hungry we can see both joe, we can see other countries who are slightly moving away from the race. the both by the united states. i mean, also when it comes to a boston suppression of russia, all those drugs know, willing to have 9 participants from, from, from most coke during the, um, the, the, the, the, the meetings on the demonstration hungry. we know that i'm driving stuff from the very beginning business. the many other countries grew up behind because those things the same on for us and we bought all reluctance old codes,

the girl. what does it normally do to, to join the, the code with, with, with, with a to over. we saw see, i wouldn't hold my breath because palms are changing and people are the fools. but what is happening in the national elections and people will be voting with their feet. so in order to stay in power, you have to somehow please your electric. and if you're not facing your electric, you all down. and we've seen this in an easy and we've seen this in, in numbers of the european countries or across the west as well. so we shall see. i mean i, i wouldn't hold my breath, i wouldn't hold my breath either, but i wouldn't be, i don't think it's out of the question. considering these new conventions about this information is that some of elections will just be called no one boy, nope. nope, there was, there was outside in for an interview. and so you know, that we, we void the selection, they're gonna start doing that. okay. uh carl. and what is the major lesson is

china? do you think is drawn from this ridiculousness and ukraine, a conflict that never should have started in the 1st place? what conclusions would they draw as well? i think one conclusion is to be drawn is your us is a paper tiger. i mean, look at us is having trouble to supply artillery and munitions to you credit this. we're talking about countries. i've spent nearly a trillion dollars in dfcs budget that have larger defensive budget. and next to the top 10 countries combined, yet they do not have the industrial capacity to simply produce artillery shells for ukraine. so russia is, he says, not only taking on ukraine. russia is taking of the united states and always european bass all at once and rushes whitney so that what china can take away from that is the, you know, u. s. military is this giant load where that, you know, it's not what it's the hollywood crack up to be. well, i mean, you know,

it's interesting, carl, that they don't, you know, they don't want to send certain weapons systems. you know, they, they're always hesitating. i don't, i don't think it's because they're afraid of escalation. i think they're afraid the world can see that the most of their military hardware is junk. okay. and it's very over priced junk. okay. because now we're going to see these abram tanks. they will burn like any other tank in ukraine, and this is something that the pentagon is very worried about because, you know, our sales are very, very important and they want to keep selling them to europe. so i think that's one of the hesitations. they have not escalation, not, not g o politics. dollars is what concerns them. gentlemen, we've run out of time on a think, my guess in raleigh and in london. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. so you next time,

remember across the as soon as 2016 numerous monuments, the soviet soldiers in poland, ukraine and the baltic states have been destroyed, all vandalized fish their stuff. but it must be the 1st certainly within. yeah. unless or even some others could ask if i really think so that's rather than just most on whether it's, it's special or just bring in the police government denies the rule of soviet so just in the victory of a non system and is it raising historical memories of world war 2, because the 40 because when you order, although it did seem the non c regimes, the trustees would remain think since people's consciousness forever. but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have

a to rewrite the cost to take up the provides for the state. i need to see thing because it looks like so i need october 30th. the misty. charlotte. reason the problem, the soldier monument was erected in 1947 in the stony and capital by the soviets. authorities originally built above the burial site of troops remains. it's the memorials of the soldiers who gave their lives in world war 2 was the risk at the department service, the william for the community centers in 2007, the associated government decided to relocate the monument from the city center for, for one year on that for me, for some color cops, i, me to a,

to the frustrated to move divided the population is stony, is large, russian speaking communities strongly opposed as an intense rising broke out in town in these have since become the, as the problems night drives me to bring us into the deal. it's not a process. this is the the watching is why is the why in this control? if i give but plenty of the store in this this, you should have been a short order for not imagine just a last name scale. you know, when i am what i could catch at your desktop session,

let's just shiny or just a bunch of bon is going you sit on the the, the, the, the, the back hood. this is part of the day is also i have to be in the hall brain. murder is from across the globe. i had them all. the exhibition of byron was good to me. that present video emerges on line and various sub cruise to independence and zooming into rooms. i was thinking of football with an indian flag roberts around it. they discussed the current sentence between also i need the debbie with india moving bob these folks. but the main open vision body is coming back is an i victory in this weekend that parliamentary election. there's about half of