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hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter live out in many ways the west ukraine proxy war in russia is all about narratives. first deployed was russia's unprovoked attack. then it was admitted, it was nato's expansion. ease that served as a catalyst starting the conflict. now we're told it's all about the future conflict with china. take your pick. it all boils down to western to gemini, the

in processing russia and china. i'm joined by my guess, carl john in raleigh. he's a political analyst historian and host of the silk and steel podcast and in london, we have ad, real consumptive. he is the founder of a k consulting and a foreign affairs analyst, right across top roles that affect gentlemen jumping down me want and i always appreciated. i let me start out with carl in, in raleigh. as i said in my introduction, we've seen over the last 20 months, these, this change of the subways in, in the narrative, and how to describe what was go, what is going on now in ukraine 1st, that was the unprovoked attack. and then a few weeks ago, 10 days ago, stolen breakfast. oh yeah, this happened because of nato expansion. and now, particularly coming out of the united states, is it, oh, this is a, this is a, a right to is conflict because it, it's a, it will divide brush it from china will degrade chunk the china is ally, russia. i mean it's, it's very interesting how we've got to this point because those that wanted cold war 2 point, oh, well this certainly got it, haven't they, carl?

a yes indeed. i mean, at this point, they're just throwing ccs on the wall to see what sticks. and they are trying to come up with different reasons why we need to send hundreds of $1000000000.00 to ukraine, to fund the weapons of munitions, to ukraine, to fight the russians 1st at fort west is not able to defeat russia. second, why is there a need to have a hostile relationship with russia or china? these are never explained to the public because there's not even a public debate about it. it's just a given that we somehow must be engaging, hostile confrontation with both nuclear super powers. russia and china, this is frankly insane. we need to have more discussion about the, about this ad, the, the administration, you washington, they need to come clean to explain why they're doing this. but of course they won't, because the real reason they're doing this is to continue to follow tax payers

money to the military. industrial complex. just like to wondering what sort of set of time this on wasn't about award that you was planning to window ask and this time it was about to follow taxpayers money into the military industrial complex. and this is what we're seeing again in ukraine. i don't know on the, on the same note here. i mean, it seems to me now in retrospect that this was i planned forever war just as carl is explained to us here. i mean, the griffith ended in afghanistan and 20 years pretty good. gripped but the grips up, are you ukraine? now you're getting into the big number and had a glory. okay. and we, we know that from a, a briefing that was given a few days ago to congress is that there's no timeline here. and in the amount of money that is the needed will be end. let's hear this is a shirley and, and up forever. war with washington doesn't want to end and end up. the added advantage is lindsay graham says, you know, no americans are dying, but

a lot of the ukrainians are en route. go ahead. oh yes, visa, um i do agree with you, but 1st of all i have to start with some make you know very clear. i'm not paying attention to media negative. i'm paying attention to a bigger picture, which is a both of it stopped from the both sides of his talk through the husband of the 1992 to new york times. a tv says that the only superpower in the world can be united states, according to this doctrine ever since that time, as edward's um, kind of the, of the time a senator from united states pointed out, it wasn't a clear cold. for the 21st century americans imperialism that no country kind of shooting steps, but this is the motive. so from the in united states, a washington dc, regardless of what a particular uh president will be in the office or the government. i mean,

the point of issues, what they will say in the, in the public. obviously we remember the, the big chain, you know, about the time and clean power we're trying to, you know, some how a manage the crisis, all of the kids on the approval for big stockton, but the ever since 1990 to dispense. and we're seeing this clearly we have our own stuff, america as it is, will not allow a russia to be a competitor or a china, whether it is possible in that capacity to, to, to make this happen is be on the question. but what i'm trying to say is that regardless what is the media and they rated regardless what calls all said about the america should come clean. i mean america, we have a company with, with the intentions of us, as we all know,

america's of motors of on the east to be a sole superpower in the world. a nice thing, the, the is food 5. to think that the, i'm any elections and you know, i could say would change this because the know right to vote a gemini, of imperialism is, is the only country that is, has the ability or a privilege to set the rules. and in this case, the, in a level, international order is the united states, and it is the countries like china, old russia stand in the way. this creates a, a huge problem and the potential ingredients for the complex i'm place. so this is my understanding of the current situation. i think your point about the roles of its doctrine is actually spot on. and i remember very clearly when it was rolled out, was scoffed out. it was actually made a made fun of,

but in fact it became policy. and you're also right. is it, it doesn't matter who's in the oval office, this continues. but karl, i will push a little bit back against that. i think, i think narratives are important because narratives are used to sell it to the public. okay. and we've seen um, you know, the, the, like, particularly the political right in the united states. you know, the problem with the c. so you paid, let's say you say it pays me, they never talked about a china is being communist until it became a threat. and, but i think narratives are really important because that's how you sell it to the public. and the republicans in the united states. they will be on board for this if they can say, well, if, if this is against russia and it hurts china, okay, we're all in. that is a segue carl. and i agree, absolutely. because so there is a divide in united states, whereas the republicans want to have worked with china and the democrats want to have worked with russia. so there are some planners say, well,

why can we do both come early, literally saying that united states must prepare to have a war with russia and china, which is absolutely insane and bright right now. this of all this excuse is really because there has been a space captured by the military industrial complex in the united states. you know, us likes to say is the leader of the free world. it's a world's greatest democracy, but we have what we have in us right now is a popular see a government wrong for the wealthy by particularly the walls. the leads that owns the weapon. manufacturers like the re fee on lockheed martin and boy, and the country is now being run for their profit. and this is why we must continue to engage you more across the world. you know, 1st off the amazon, you rock and libya, syria and now ukraine. so, so it really didn't matter except right now i think they're biting more than they

can chew because russia in china, they're not, you rocks, they're not libya, they are armed with. wow, well talk karl. you must be in a be a watch or of this program because i've been saying this for years. ok. the united states only gonna address right now. a lot of the united states has never had to confront a peer adversary. they have with russia. and this is something new and it's about working out the way they expect to go ahead and loved them of the site. sure. uh, i mean, uh, well, uh, according to the, to the, the modern plans. i mean, obviously they, they, the cost of the plan the, they make the projections about the single future about the goals and so on and so forth. so they need a new draft. i mean, they need more people. uh, and in order to join the army on the topic is the um, the quality of the people that can join the army. you know, the, what, cuz the sweeping around the west and was especially in united seed states. i mean

the of, of the city, the well, the lot of, uh, uh, discipline, the drug addiction, drug addiction. all that, all sorts of mental illnesses. so say this mainly. uh so, i mean, this is the, this is the to the end. and these, all the facts i've had that we know and so and so forth. but we have to understand other people. i like pull both of, it's in all the neo conservatives and you can add to the cult of, of the inside of the new liberals. people and same so regardless where the, the facts and the, the states of style saw this and shows all the other way around. like, for instance, like cause out the very beginning is that it was impossible for you for you to win the war. i mean, just recently, a president, zip is the least, he said, and he's one of many of the numbers. speech is that without the with you brain will, will, won't be destroying, will be defeated, which is obvious to any, any,

any effect fits the grey. the person who has a child, students who attended the high school, i went to school with some at some point, is the fact that the same people like mute most of the day they, they are treated by decide tricity thoughts to total with the rush up to with the china and the greed because these will, our commercial was the, was full risk. hello susan, the wholesale full, the market share. so of the by understanding basis. but you know, america, it's really been hijacked by the people who are wonderful the before we go to the baker i, i agree with the reason there, but i think there's an element of hubris as well, in moral superiority. that's very much part of this message. they, you know, in china and russia are, are, you know, you know, culturally inferior, you know, the west is the best. i think that's very much part of the 15 seconds before we go to the break. go ahead. ed real?

oh, yeah, i agree with you. i mean, we know that the international relations as a discipline is racially charged. i mean the numbers, academic books about the bases and then racial, you know, stratification within the international relations. and so when russia, as an insult is treated as us. yeah. take the i have to jump here gentlemen, we have a hard break and that's about hard. great, we'll continue our discussion on russia in china and state. the the rabbit collapse of the ottoman empire gave the arabs hold for independence,

but the colonial power. so their future differently, great britain and france agreed on the seizure of the air of lands under the guise of the so called mandate of the league of nations. this bible play caused a particular indignation in a rack, which was to get under the control of the british. in may 1921 rest with claim for independence broke out, both assuming and that she took part in it. soon the rallies turned into a real uprising against the invaders. more than 130000 people took up arms. britain urgently began to transfer reinforcements to a rack and used aircraft radius war. secretary, winston churchill birds, the use of chemical weapons against the rebels. and general ser i on their hel dane bordered the destruction of any village where weapons were found. burning a village properly takes

a long time. an hour or more according to sized paulding recalled cynically. in his memoirs, the mediaeval girl, the paid off, the revolt was crush. however, separate his empire had to make serious concessions. in 1921, it recognized bustle. the 1st, as the king of a rag time gave part of the power to representatives of the local population. b. a racket revolt marked the beginning of the national consolidation of the country and became an important milestone on the way to final independence. the welcome back. across the top were all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt. remind you we're discussing russia and china. the

okay is go back to carl and raleigh carl. i am older than you. i'm older than ad rail. so i have a little bit of wisdom on my side in memory. okay. but you know, i'm a child of the cold war literally, you know, the entire cold war. i lived through it and they had something, i guess people forgotten about. it was called, they talked, why can't the west have? they talked with russia and china and other countries and what that's not on the agenda. okay. all we get is this kind of joseph burrell nonsense. that we're the garden and you're not, you're the jungle. that is a very primitive way of looking at the world, and not to even considering peace and peaceful coexistence is an insult to the times that we live in co head. carl. well, it's about jobs and careers. i mean, why do people like joseph, where all of us have a job, isn't the founder lane. uh, people like that. what do they do exactly, except asking us most peace, washington. i mean, you know, carl, carl david worth, he's a mouth piece for zalinski. i mean, it gets worse. so good thing,

keep going. carl. what the, the, the whole, the whole edifice of nato exist just to come to rochester, if rush, if you west and russia or china or to become friends, you're going to throw out all these, natal bureaucrats, all the things tankers out of jobs. so it's, is there, there is their own self interest in order to maintain their salary, their lift main standers, they must perpetuate war and they must continue to show what this war was. this is, this is very unfortunate fact, but deep, but also us. so we have talked about, there's a lot of hubris, you know, why do us the empire act and wait? they do, well, why did dogs eat fish cheese? because the 10 us felt like you could throw his weight around because of it. yeah, yeah. he's used to throw his weight around without calling to resistance. well, this time is different because russia and china is much more,

is much more appear near peer competitor to the united states. and anything us as an encounter before. and i need to remind people, us have never really won a war against a near competitor. you know what we're to, it's a soviet union that did. most of the heavy lifting us did do quite a bit in the pacific war. but then japan wasn't appeared a competitor of the united states, and now us base thinking to fight russia and china, your co were dot to. they thought you could win. but guess what today to russia in china is not the soviet union of yesterday years. today we're looking at the brakes that has a larger, larger economy that all of the g 7 combined. this is why there's a lot of of a panic also in washington. and are you working capital? they're trying to preserve the gym, the west for, and the gemini, at any cost, including waging up very terrible proxy work. the ukraine. yeah. well,

i don't know also. uh, it would be, uh, uh, it would be a shame if we didn't remember what happened exactly. almost a year ago, let me think. oh, the destruction of the north stream pipelines. okay. of course no one will. i guess we'll never know. you know, that's, you know, one of those great mysteries of the cosmos. but the echo would carl was saying to maintain that hit germany, you're willing to damage your so called friends, go ahead in london as well. does last true to the bottom line of terrorist as are, is it bit but well, it was one of the greatest commercial terrorist attacks and the western history that we know. and i, i do believe is the germans have dignity. i mean, some germans, i'm sure that they are over there. and this is a ticking bomb that the united states set one year ago. and it will blow into

the whole collective west face in the coming months or years. and i will lay the ground, the past, lazy ground full full of the night to dismantle it goes, go. i may, i do i do a lot of the pregnancy. i'm not delete this other as it is. but we also have that many quite a bit. oh, it's a dream. it remains to be seen. it remains to be seen nice. i agree with your son to ment. okay. but to have what i refer to him is sergeant schultz standing next to biden, you know, i mean, i mean the absolute complete full. he was, he was made out of he made himself a full, okay. and, and he just stood by so i. 9 hope that there will be consequences. carl, you know, nature always says nature, always the defense of alliance. ok, well it looks like it wants to militarize asia and going into confront, encounter china will. china is not gonna take that sitting down like to know that

different than russia. well i, i was not aware of the north atlantic now it's, it's extends to this. i was trying to see. but realistically natal that you've been with the war a proxy where you, you quitting against russian. what realistically can natal do in china, in the, you know, place that sold far wrong from europe, they have to fight what's still called the tyranny of distance is just to ferry all the materials to be called to, to fight in china sprung yard essentially. and let's not forget, china is a world's factory. china's industrial capacity drawer for even that of the united states. and right now us just basically comp prowling, it's fall vassals, european bass, so to say on long it's war with china because us know, by itself you cannot win against china. and now your opinion leaders like bounder lane, like joseph bar out there, committed suicide for you. you because us use this,

essentially cannibalizing is allied to sure is still showing up is onto the 1st part capacity. that's what we have seen after the bombing of north streams, all the unit, jeremy industrialists, now they have the tab for united states because they no longer have access to cheap rushing gas as well as well. i mean, i guess i'm glad that was brought up because i liked cannibalizing allies, and that's exactly what's going to happen. i mean, the europe is being de industrialized i, i don't see it as in much of an asset if it, it, it's the industrialized poor in recession all of the time. what kind of waiting is that, andrew? well, there's a says even for, for the united states, it's a $11.00 competitor, potential competitor down. and we know that going back to the most true question, is that for united? so why don't the greatest stressful, the united states from that perspective was a close alliance between german economy and russia. so once you have you up down

and you know, for, for john and companies moving to the, you know, from production to united states that the china to any other countries. yeah. they, they, duster lives in the europe is no longer uh, from the united states. i would say i would go even further the united states never proceed. you, europe, as an online, it was a us, as the corner of the, a bustle, approximate. so if you're a mazda in russell, the relationship is slightly different on the dynamic between friends. we never been friends and, and i'm the united states. i mean, the americans know it is, and you, europe, in europe is also in the service only than the, the, the so called charles is morales and others who been put in place because you are being you, you know, i think i prefer to go about mentioning this point of view of in union recreational c i united states in order to unified europe on the flag and, you know,

they have the continent to be easily managed by united states. and europe in union is a american construct. i would say uh so um, yes, i mean you're being union has come up with that kind of blogs. you roku within countries of whether you will be in countries a key to be come on board, come you belies, i'm not sure we can see the hungry we can see both joe, we can see other countries who are slightly moving away from the race be both by the united states, i mean also when it comes to a box and suppression of russia, all those drugs know, willing to have 9 participants from, from, from most coke during the, um, the, the, the, the, the meetings, all of their demonstration hungry. we know that hungover and stuff from the very beginning business. the many other countries grew up behind because they'll stay

the same amount of time rebut all reluctance, old codes, the girl. what does it normally do to, to join the, the code with, with, with, with a to all the we saw c o the hold my breath because palms are changing and people are fools by what is happening in the national elections. and people will be voting with their feet. so in order to stay in power, you have to somehow please your electric. and if you're not facing your electric, you all down. and we've seen this in an easy and we've seen this in, in numbers of the european countries or across the west as well. so we shall see. i mean i, i wouldn't hold my breath, i wouldn't hold my breath either, but i wouldn't be, i don't think it's out of the question. considering these new conventions about this information is that some of elections will just be called no one boy, nope. nope, there was, there was outside in the interview and so you know, that we,

we void the selection, they're gonna start doing that. okay. uh carl. and what is the major lesson is china? do you think is drawn from this ridiculousness and ukraine, a conflict that never should have started in the 1st place? what conclusions would they draw as well? i think what conclusion is to be drawn is your us is a paper tiger. i mean, look at us is having trouble to supply artillery and munitions to ukraine. this we're talking about country that spends nearly a trillion dollars in dfcs budget that have larger defensive budget. and next to the top 10 countries combined, yet they do not have the industrial capacity to simply produce artillery shells for ukraine. so russia is, this is not only taking on ukraine. russia is taking um, united states and always european bass, so at once and rushes whitney so that what china can take away from that is the, you know, u. s. military is this giant load where that, you know,

it's not what it's the hollywood crack up to be. well, i mean, you know, it's interesting, carl, that they don't, you know, they don't want to send certain weapon systems. you know, they, they're always hesitate. i don't, i don't think it's because they're afraid of escalation. i think they're afraid the world can see that the most of their military hardware is junk. okay. and it's very over priced junk. okay. because now we're going to see these abram tanks. they will burn like any other tank in ukraine, and this is something that the pentagon is very worried about because, you know, our sales are very, very important and they want to keep selling them to europe. so i think that's one of the hesitations. they have not escalation, not, not g o politics. dollars is what concerns the gentleman we've run out of time on a think, my guess in raleigh and in london. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our t. so you next time, remember across the

the, there's been many, 10 or false government's comforters, etc. in order to start with thoughts and ceasefire, etc. and they have nothing successful in most of them. we're only appealing to russia and, or korean, but they ignore the fact that nature, washington, really the main causes of the con, the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the russian states. never as i've started as i'm one of the most sense community. i'll send some of the same assistance as being the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission. the state on rochester routing and split from ortiz, spoke back, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say steven twist,

which is the fiber buddy i'm or 2 inches, i've been doing news now for 30 years and 2 languages all over the world. and here in the united states, i've interviewed for you as president's work that the, some of the largest television networks in the world. and i believe after all, about that new should be honest and direct and impactful. and that's why we call this direct impact the so there's this trend taking place in america. maybe it's really more like a reverse trend. affirmative action. so you front of action is supposed to give an