the attorney, welcome to wells a part for here's the is really posting and conflicts tend to be the most irreconcilable discord in international relations. but now this green title is being claimed by the way in your printing, which unlike the middle is to, is try. it hasn't, if you've seen any meaningful mediation efforts, which one is harder to resolve at this point, hope to discuss that i'm now joined by gabby subordinate senior research here at the jerusalem institute for strategy and security. assistant. one is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. now, before you became a worst cooler, i know that you served as an infantry officer for the israeli army, and he took part in both lebanon, worse, which some members of the international community, a condemned as illegal or as wars of aggression. and i wonder what was it like for you on a personal basis to partake in, in conflict that others described as

a are barrick well, you know, it is, well, we are always described as doing illegal activities. it doesn't matter if we do anything using both uh was, were self defense was and we had to respond to severe effects of federal res from the northern. both of this from devon on monday with that or not the only tool was because i pacific. oh, same really fun in baton, a position which was a 3rd one. so level known as being the 4 years instability plans, and that's a continuously, it was the arresting, the northern population of isn't. and from time to time we have, we have to, we have and we had to react. it's not only about what others say, i think it's also about the so called international because the un general assembly condemned to israel's actions or the general assembly menu. it goes to the general assembly does not specify 5 international law as

a national. lo is that he was specified that he's hired as always, been conducting only some of the positions within the concern itself in some of the constraints of international law, but extraterritorial liam. no, i understand. uh no, i would. i would argue with that because i, i, i've decided the fact that i practice it in person via our research to this issue for many years and the, and the together with the international committee, with as close as in the office in the event. and the, and the i have stated with that is a, is one of the most responsible states taken care of, of international law and is a very, very, and, and careful in trying to prevent. so civilian versus non info. civil mister support . i'm sure you would agree with me that every, it's faith existing on this planet with claim the same, including the americans,

including the russians, including the chinese. so i want to ask you specifically about israel, how do you think it balances the constrains up, you know, imposed by international law versus the progress of its own secures to reach sometimes it run counter to i personally to challenge your 1st statement that the f as every country would say the same is not the method of saying it's made or affects on the wrong. because i have seen how, for example, the american says, behaving the new york. how's the russian? so it'd be used in other places in the, in the, in the word like the, like what i the syria and i can see, uh like in the, uh, i can uh, you know, in the, in the eighty's in enough to understand and the associates that okay. sorry to i, i regular life is and the, and the anyway in all the conflicts, all st. george, i was the show us the process interests, area and the, and i,

st and not on the side. smells on the right side because is a, is practically the writing the for national with its a very, very careful and it comes up in the fighting in the complex areas in the, in the high populace is very populated areas. well, uh, mr. simone, if you can allow me also a little bit of a soft relate and revelation. i have many, our friends who are here critical as you can imagine of israel's actions. and one of my friends told me that it's easier for me in the russian to get a visa to israel then for him, even though his family lived there for generation. so i think we can at least agree that israel's actions have also been criticized in human rights, right. the only reason, but also access to certain is our last the big treatment of the civilians on the ground. the freedoms allow to them. i don't want to do something from us for

example, which is the father standing on the federal organization. the strategy from us is to fire me, science towards civilian population is that i kinda got school or whatever from civilian population as a product issue. so you, they use their own civilian population, it's not the secret of others and about it for many times. for example, there's been fighting in this house from the vicinity of all the u. n. n. a refugee a policy in order to g organization from that has anything of hold on for them scores. and why do they do that? just for one reason to protect themselves because they know that is and will not fire back to a place where there is a school or there is a, you know, a highly highly chest is that none involved will be pump. so even if it's around these fighting, it's all to destroyer. let's say, how much the headquarters we,

i normally warn the people inside the test close us. that's where they're going to bump and we want them either. we lifted either we phone calls that are evidence of such phone calls. and if for those to turn off work they, we also use some enough to charge us that does not only make sound to make sure that the population in the house is evacuated before we destroyed. so i think uh this, uh, um, let's say this claims about these and i know they close. i know them, they exist, but completely unjustified. now, as i'm sure you know, um russia has been very careful long before the current conflict. the new credit has been very careful about it's criticism of in israel. and i think also very understanding of israel's security sensibilities. i'm sending the realities on the ground may differ from some abstract values and the same time as mundane the

working relationship with the palestinians when the radians with other actors in the region. how do you understand most coast stands? these every, your country, especially on security matter. yes. first of all, i think that the russia has a very important role because they have very strong ties with isabel. in fact, when the soviet, in the beginning, the soviet, the immigration policeman and they took the russian immigration, pleaseland has contributed very much to these. then economy info is that of scientific good because they do cation brushing slow and the same with the don't enjoy this over the very much appreciate, i don't know what happens with that. i shouldn't be patient, but they're very much appreciate the soviet education. so difficult to get an answer that has been a few interesting to hear that. thank you. yes, and the so this is the sides of use that and also we are we actually think back to me cause it has a very good relations with our enemies, with the enemies of the policy and as the others can the people, i'm sorry. oh no,

they are not the kind of thing and people are not the enemies, but the organization like, i'm us like uh, just let me jot this out anyways. or the syrians without any reason. still it out. our name is they declared or they are on the inside of our entries. so they have good relations with these are these the countries. and it's very important to have this kind of relations with an entity that can make some terms with those content because that's very important. it actually is also as you know, involved in city and very much and we are active in syria is that is very active in trying to avoid it on to get the photos in, in, in syria. and that is why it is affecting this iranian, and also city on the if, when they jeopardize very much our security and infrastructure in syria, the end, the end, the,

we are called. the nice thing though is that text me is the options. what do you think made if possible? because i'm sure you understand the context and the reason this interview is taking place. we have a war and the neighboring country with a, you know, well what we used to refer to as a brother, really nation before. and you have to, what you're telling me is that the russians are actually when it comes to the battlefields. russians can operate with the degree all 5, you know, reasonableness, why do you think that's kind of cooperation that is possible in syria between these rallies and the rainy. and so even the american said, there is no competition between is the changing like into linking the there is a just to make sure that that was clearly understood. there is cooperation, operation of cooperation, back dakota, portion corporations was the russia. well, i is my it is it, i couldn't get on. absolutely. but all sides in d and this cooperation. understanding that old practical interest,

they've continued being uh, maybe avenues at some point or competitors at another. but they've proceeded with this with certain norms. why was it possible in syria and why do you think it wasn't possible? let's say when it comes to ukraine, when i was, i would talk about to create and 2nd, i just want to to specify my point regarding celia or the, the sicilian it audience that they are ex steve very harshly against these that i, they, they outside of a huge federal company and because they have a strategy of, let's say they want to game as you money released. so is a, is for them very, to cite on. and the big one is america and russia is balancing it out. i mean, i, i don't know if russia is policy goes, i know that the, to your on and is very heavy involved inside is that i with out of these ladies with the policy and then a 10 organization helping them and promoting them and funding them in and doing

federal effects and these are, this, is that the, as i'm sure, the, it is really intelligence the ethics in, you know, seriously a couple of the welto says, you know what, federal just trying to kill innocent people with no discrimination. that is, that is not never has done that's, i think it's fair to admit that you know, it's the country, it engages itself and cover the operations and, and that's beside the pollution of our okay. the facility absolutely, absolutely qualification as the, as we say in because the websites are things that so you'll, you'll, there's as written in folding press. that is where was active. you is active in your on, but it's not doing their own activity in your own is no telling me, is civilians in your on indiscriminately? why is it on is doing that's very heavily and he said, what can i repeat?

my original question is, why do you seeing that kind of operational rivalry versus cooperation that was possible in syria where russia is functioning as a, as a go between at least let's say, between israel and its enemies. why do you think that model wasn't possible in ukraine? why does it have and why does ukraine have to be, you know, somebody else is some somebody straw fee or rather than being at the former government. i think i've seen that before that then you or maybe you had, we had the shortest time of one year under government, which the format of the prime minister of the thoughts that you would be able to get some terms being russia and ukraine in the beginning. it was a bits in my view, pathetic with the i i you know, this is a battle between huge entities is that is a small country, you know, we are, we, we, we barely have energy to take care of the products. but the,

but to i think that to, 1st of all, i want to tell you personally that the water between the eye, i saw it coming. i understood it was coming. and if you no one has to understand the sense of self defense, the flush ahead. oh oh, in regard to the activity of your credit and mainly that activity is not natal in the is some side of the interest of people for a moment because this is a here's an important question and we have to take a short break, but we will expand on it just after searching the take a fresh look around is life kaleidoscopic. isn't just a shifted reality distortion by how us to do vision with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse to really was a better wills,

and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the the the

the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to rosa parks with gabby subordinate senior research here at the jerusalem institute for strategy and security assisted building before i interrupted you, you started talking about self defense and self defense. isn't it something that is real claims? uh, it on many occasions and something that's pressure also involved to justify its military operation in, in the ukraine. do you think it's a legitimate, the side of the route as part of the, when the cri, you know that the, to a lot in other countries, you're allowed to,

to re x on says defense. what if you want, if you are effects your self defense? i, i mentioned that russia are the most say that the 2 x as self defense. i said that it was a i a, the, the, on my understanding what this to last shot is acting under that the sense of self defense imagined. but the russian troops are, are deployed on the border between mexico and the united states. what the, what was the united states doing this sonata? i'm shows that there were lots of states were up to date such and ask here as a conflicts color because this tension between russia and nathan russian, the west has been, had been boiling for many years prior to 2022. it wasn't a proxy for him. cyber attacks, a, you know, military drills, chemical lapse. what have you, diplomatic strive? but it wasn't in that a. what do you think allowed for these uh,

sort of under the carpet conflict to become for we expressed war on the battle sailed 1st. if it was an initiative of your government, the federal government, the russian government has stopped the understand the server. you're going to send that to 1st of all, before the, the, all state, if you begin, actually, the connecticut basically began. there was some, some of the, when you know, i'll state easy and other means you know that now with the, the, for mission at all. um, what we call information and compare and so the influence of people influence the only thing for wars i hear force has been active very much. and i don't know if it's a complement or not. but the site is very, very well known as least in, in the, my immediate, but it was that process well known for its ability to conduct, uh, these kinds of a pleasures with yes, absolutely. this last minute, i know that russia is active all over the world in europe. even now, what do you actually mean by that?

because i've been working with these channels, which has been described as a propaganda bullhorn. i've been working here for the years, but i tried to do all list analysis with a saw that we actually live on the same planet them. if it's a, you know, comes up in the nuclear mushroom and nobody will manage the 1st of all in brussel. he's not the only one that's $10.00 increments so pollution. every, every state responsible states will use the different influence operation, which is a, you know, on a cellphone to propagation of your views. i'm seeing for wars once one. no, no, no, no. as long as i say on your financial portion is not honest. a few of us, your views is okay. but the profit us and start to affect how people, for example, in general money or in poland or into both, takes the think and act and using what we call influence stores or fake news or whatever, whatever do you want to use to, to convince them or tool tool in the portal,

arise the discourse of to make good security and stability. i don't see russia using to be honest with you. i don't see rushing using too much fake news. i mean like we have the trunk $100.00 to ship this i. i don't know what this tools anymore and what to because the pressure, i don't allow us to send email only god knows what this through. we are now facing . you know, when i read something, i don't know i, i believe nothing. what are you doing or whatever? only my mind is sometimes my mind is, is money to do it is by others, and i don't know that it has been manipulated. dorsey is not effect or any more, you don't know what these through as well. so everybody's using the best way to get their goals will be it through beef, non true, nobody else. now the americans like to say that a perception is reality. and this is actually one of the ways they used to post world view onto the rest of the world. and i think one of the reasons why the russians launched

a military operation in ukraine is to prove that the reality is reality. and if your security interest off threatened, you have to respond not just by words, but by actions did he rusher, will succeed in that. i researched it. first operation during the transition was the 1st year. and so trying to understand what the, what, what's going on that you guys are also active very, very much into so, you know, if everybody is active, you. so, and this is a part of the war. now it's become a part of war. you, you don't use only genetics use also. can you, are we in the war through influence operation only? can you wind up conflicts through influence? all right, i'm sorry us know, in my view to the, you know, to the for see and future without shifting bullets and without getting your money on your books, there is no way to win anymore. now i drew some parallels between these rarely, pl listing and conflict and the were in ukraine. and i think one major difference is that whenever these rarely posting in strive goes kinetics,

they're always efforts to mediate, or at least their calls for cease fire. but not in the case of your brain. we haven't seen any meaningful efforts. you mention these statements by, for man is really government. there have been some a turing sonata capitals, but nobody gave it a real hard effort. why not? why not? yeah. well, i, i think that the you, russia and ukraine did not receive a claim. you can is not alone because ukraine is somehow alternated slash money to later, bye bye and american solved by western countries and the end, the, the, the, the, the months of fuel, calais, in orders landscape and, and not acceptable by anybody in our shop. they, it does not match, you know, they want to go to the board. this of 9091 or something like i don't. and then it

does not much. so as long as and they stay on those 2 um bullet points. it went up to and it doesn't, but that if you bring the money out to the table or bring someone else to the table trying to and get terms to between the size, it has to be, you know, i've read recently. and then the last days that there is that is the vaccine in european se population so far for us to, to continue supporting your claim. and that is that addiction in america support to continue supporting your credit and just see what happens with the budget. now, in, in the corporate us, in the, in america and maybe maybe the, you know, the restaurants is a huge, as the partners that don't mess with the russians. and the, you know, maybe, uh, the russians are waiting. they have enough energy to wait until the you can use one of them were say, okay, a bundle. we stopped. this was extra level. so i think a very interesting parallel because uh for many years uh the united states,

despite claiming neutrality has been squarely on israel side. but uh, more recently, uh, the american support for israel hasn't been voted, but it has become less prominent. maybe less for right before friday. do you think this thing could happen uh to ukraine? because i know you've been the very strong advocate of self sufficiency when it comes to israel on defensive runners. dissing your credit has any 1st, the largest i don't, i don't want to fiddle for. they've got to think, isn't it? i'm, i'm, i'm, is advocate for many is the isn't i should not rely on anyone for it's a defense is an actual defend itself by itself. we, we don't need all those coming into that without the americans for, for, as i mentioned before, the military in our independence war. okay. in 48 and we were 600000 people against a huge administer the the tech on the side for from old out of states trying to conquer the joyce, the smoke to a settlement. that's what the things that i say i'm,

i'm sure we can do it because we have a behind us 3000 years of historic and we've managed and we wanna manage. and the, i don't know they're about to create a new content is relying, you know, i'm just so that the numbers, the 45000000000 dollars of america the supports from the us through the last couple of us. and this is not, was amounts of money. so i don't think that your brand is going to abandon is a, it sale what they perceive as the eliza on, you know, and, and the, and i hope that the nato is not pushing too much to enter ukraine, thrown into an 8th. all this will escalate the situation completely. input position . i think we have a, i will not throw out even the use of nuclear. you know, it's, it's, it's very sensitive distortions, very sensitive. and i, i really, we, i don't people of pc and oil one piece. and i hope that will be found a peaceful solution for the conflict in russian. well, uh,

the difficulty with finding that useful solution is that it's not just about the conflict of interest, a conflict between russia and ukraine. it's also about, you know, brother architecture in europe and i see the as the look of the, the, the, and the we had now discussions about the, the, the issue that america has been, what's an isaac, it's donna and making it as a military monetizing me sizing the economy and the, and, and this creates a counseling revolution, china, russia, india, and other really, you know, but i was in south america, the south africa, and sorry to south america at 12 to create an independent financial and framework not to rely on the dollar enough to rely on and this i think, is going to be very actions for you. and in the end a, maybe a, it's most, although that's where i'm not the, you know,

and that is only focusing on the american economy because it said we need some kind of more redundant. see in this well, are self sufficiency or equality. it says it is, and then we have learned also for on this will you know, that the, the, the health system of euclid has been destroyed by the russians. and the, and the, and the, you know, this is so not to get go. so it can happen easily by all readings, and we have to find ways for to secure our health system for attempt to go and listen done secured for supply. allison done. and to make sure that is rarely so sufficient. was it as much as it can? can i ask you one last question? because israel also has to think about winning the so called hearts and minds of the people on the other side. do you think there's anything that russia can authentically offered to ukraine to increase the chances of a settling on

a national basis and possibly keeping the big american proxy a b? is there a i would presume to not, you know, it would be presumptuous to me to, to try to advise that i send them to i'm, i'm asking about your opinion. yeah. my opinion, but i have to, you know, when i have to enter pin and it has to be based on something with what i don't feel that my basis is sort of enough about the conflicts. i'm, as i told the, with my, my main, my main concern about is about our conflicts and how to manage. for example, i know that it would be very difficult for is that the, when the house and minds of the ops, okay. the coffee is very, very deep and the, which is not very deep in the, in your crime between, you know, most of you could, i have some options. yeah. you know, well that's a very, yeah, you know, the, with the numbers all the manuals there. what kinds of options? well, they don't consider themselves russians any more. absolutely. well,

the story clue that they would rush. what historically, i mean many, the, one on caesar, oakley, i, ment, okay, this is the last, as i would exaggerate 100 years. and while we are with the on up. so we have a story. so it's a, you know, so out of conflict is deeper, is i understand that it's easier to get in tennessee. they will kind of or so for when that these virus still getting things without a while, i hope to be honest with the policy number because with on ups and just seeing that then, you know, is the, is wing medical. so is the, with the, the other on the card agreements and with the, the saudi arabia. now hopefully we, we will have pieces of the interview and try to isolate the policy and an issue with the issue, which is very important for us. well, that's how the, both of this going success settled in our lifetime. lifetimes, mississippi, the f one to make you less that the, i don't you have case mike. i have case i told them, look,

you are heavy enough. also you events, it was have you know, well, i'm not the, i'm really uh well uh, i don't know if it's a knelt domestic or a pessimistic nose, but we have to live with there. thank you very much for being with us. thank you for watching hope this. here again was the part the, [000:00:00;00] the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the disturbing images from does have the most intense violence and decades between israel and hamas, games and momentum leaving over 700 palestinians dad and nearly 4000 injured israel brings that gaza under a total long town with electricity,