the, the, the welcome to worlds a part for here is the, is really posting of conflicts tend to be the most irreconcilable discord in international relations. but now this green title is being claimed by the way in your printing, which unlike the middle eastern tribe, hasn't, you've seen any meaningful mediation efforts, which one is harder to resolve. at this point, hope to discuss that i'm now joined by gabby subordinate senior research here at the jerusalem institute for strategy and security. this is important is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. now, before you became a worst cooler, i know that you served as an infantry officer for the is really army. and he took part in both loving them worse, which some members of the international community, a condemned as illegal or as wars of aggression. and i wonder what was it like for

you on a personal basis to partake in conflicts that others described as a are barrick well, you know, it means that we are always described as doing illegal activities. it doesn't matter if we do anything using both the words were such as defense wars and we had to respond to severe effects of federal res from the northern. both of this from 11 on monday with that or not, the only tool was because i pacific those same really fun in the time a function which was a 3rd one. so level known has been for years and instability plans, and that's a continuously, it was the arresting, the northern population of isn't. and from time to time we have, we have to, we have and we had to react. so it's not only about what others say, i think it's also about the so called international because the un general assembly condemned to israel's actions or the general assembly. i guess the general assembly

does not specify the international law. the international law is very well specified that he's hired is always been conducting only some of the positions within the constraints of some of the constraints of international law, but the extra territorial liam no, i understand. okay, i, i would argue with that because i, i, i've decided the fact that i practice it in person via our research to this issue for many years and the, and the together with the international committee, with as close as in the office in the event. and the, and the i have to tell you that is a, is one of the most responsible states taking care of the, of international law and is a very, very, and, and careful in trying to present to citizen versus non invo. mr. silver. and i'm sure you would agree with me that every, it's faith existing on this planet with claim the same, including the americans,

including the russians, including the chinese. so i wanna ask you specifically about israel, how do you think it balances the constraints? uh, you know, imposed by international law versus uh the progress of its own secures to reach. sometimes it run counter to i personally to, to challenge your 1st statement that the f is. every country would say the same is not the method of saying it's made or affects on the wrong. because i have seen how, for example, the american said, we have the new york. how's the russian side behaved? in other places, the, in the, in the, in the word like the, like what i like to see area and i can see, uh like in the, uh, i can, uh, you know, the in the eighty's in enough to understand. and the soviet said, okay, sorry i, i regular life is and the, and the anyway in all the conflicts, all st. george was the yes now. right?

yes. interests, area. and the, and i've seen and not on the last i smoked on the russian because is a, is practically a writing the for national with it's a very, very careful contact in the fighting in the complex areas in the, in the high populace is very popular areas well, uh, mr. simone, if you can allow me also a little bit of a soft relate revelation. i have many, our friends who are here critical as you can imagine of israel's actions. and one of my friends told me that it's easier for me in the russian to get a visa to israel then for him, even though his family lived there for generation. so i think we can at least agree that israel's actions have also been criticized on human rights. right. the only reason, but also access to certain is the last, the, the treatment of the civilians on the ground. the freedom is allowed to that. i

don't want to do something from us for example, which is the father standing on the organization. the strategy from us is to fire me science towards civilian population is that i kinda got schools, whatever from civilian population as a product issue. so you, they use their own civilian population, it's not the secret of others and about it for many times. for example, there's been fighting themselves from the vicinity of all the u. n. n. a refugee a policy in order to g organization from the form scores. and why do they do that? just for one reason to protect themselves because they know that is and will not fire back to a place where there is a school or there is um, you know, uh, a highly, highly chest is that no one involved to be pump. so even if it's around these fighting to, to destroyer a, let's, let's say,

how much the headquarters we normally warn the people inside the test quotes us. and that's where they're going to bump. and we want them either. we listed either we phone calls that are evidence of such phone calls. and if the those to, to not work they, we also use some enough to charge us that does not only make sound to make sure that the population in the house is evacuated before we destroyed. so i think uh this, uh, um, let's say this claims about these and i know they close. i know them, they exist, but completely unjustified. now, as i'm sure you know, um russia has been very careful long before the current conflict. the new clinic has been very careful about it's criticism of in israel. and i think also very understanding of israel's security sensibilities. understanding that the realities

on the ground may differ from some abstract values and the same time in montana, the working relationship with the palestinians when the radians with other actors in the region. how do you understand most coast stands these every year countries, especially on security matter. yes. first of all, i think that the russia has a very important throw because they have very strong ties with isabel. and in fact, uh when the soviet, in the beginning, the soviet, the immigration policeman and they found that austin, in the nation please. well, it has contributed very much to these then economy info. is there a scientific good because they do cation brushing, slow and the same with the don't enjoy to solve the very much appreciate. i don't know what happens with that. i shouldn't be patient, but they're very much appreciate the soviet education, scientifically division. and he's that i'd have been if he's interesting to hear that, thank you. yes, and the so this is the side of his bed and also we are we're, it actually is important because it has a very good relations with our enemies,

with the enemies of the fall as soon as the others can the people, i'm sorry. oh no, they are not the policy of people. i don't know if the enemies but that organization like i'm us like uh, just let me job that are enemies or the syrians without writing these and still it out. i'm name is they declared they are on the inside of our entries. so they have good relations with these are, these are countries and it's very important to have this kind of a relations with a, an entity that can make some terms with those countries. because that's very important, it actually is also as you know, involved in syria and very much and we are active in syria, is that he's very active in trying to avoid it on to get the photos in, in, in syria. and the is really, is affecting this iranian and also seriana if, when they jeopardize very much our security and infrastructure in syria. eh,

and the, and the, we are called. the nice thing though is that text me is the options. what do you think made it possible because i'm sure you understand the context and originally centuries taking place. we have a work in the neighboring country with a, you know, well, what we used to refer to as a brother, really nation before. and you have to, what you're telling me is that the russians are actually when it comes to the battlefields. russians can operate with the degree all 5, you know, reasonableness, why do you think that's kind of cooperation that is possible in syria between these rallies and the rainy. and so even the americans that there is no cooperation is the thing that like into linking the there is a just to make sure that that was clearly understood. there is cooperation, operation of cooperation, back dakota, portion corporations was the russia will, i is my, it is it, i can give them absolutely. but all sides. indeed, in this cooperation, understanding that old practical interest,

they continued being uh, maybe avenues at some point or competitors at another, but they pursue it with this with certain norms. why was it possible in syria and why do you think it wasn't possible? let's say when it comes to ukraine, when i was, i would talk about to create and 2nd, i just want to to specify my point regarding celia or the, the sicilian audience that they are expertise very harshly against these that i, they, they outside of a huge federal campaign because they have a strategy of, let's say they want to gain as you money released. so is a, is for them that are safe on. and the big one is america, and russia is balancing it out. i mean, i, i don't know if russia is policy goes, i know that the, to your on end is very heavy. involved inside is that i with out of these ladies with the policy and then a 10 organization helping them and promoting them and funding them in doing federal

ethics. and he's like, this is with the as a, i'm sure the, it is really intelligence, the ethics in, you know, seriously a couple of the welto says, you know, i settled this thing to kill innocent people with no discrimination. that is, that is not never has done that's, i think it's fair to admit that you know, each country it engages itself and cover the operations and, and that's besides the pollution of our okay. the facility are absolutely absolutely called into production as the, as we say in, because the websites are things that so you'll, you'll, there's as written in folder in price. that is, there was activity is active in your on. but it's not doing their own activity in your own is no telling me is civilians in your on indiscriminately? why is it on is doing that's very heavily and he said, what can i repeat?

my original question is, why do you think that kind of operational rivalry versus cooperation that was possible in syria where russia is functioning as a, as a go between at least let's say, between israel and its enemies. why do you think that model wasn't possible in ukraine? why does it have and why does ukraine have to be, you know, somebody else has some somebody's trophy or rather than being at the former government, i think i've seen that before. that then. yeah, we do head, we had the show time, a funny or government, which the former prime minister of the thoughts that you would be able to get some terms being russia and ukraine in the beginning. it was a bits in my view, pathetic with the i i you know, this is a battle between huge entities is that is a small country, you know, we are, we, we, we barely have energy to take care of the problems. but the,

but to i think that to, 1st of all, i want to tell you personally that the water between the eye, i saw it coming. i understood it was coming. and if you no one has to understand the sense of self defense the semester ahead. oh oh, in regard to the activity of your credit and mainly that activity is not natal in the is some side of the interest over here for a moment because this is a here's an important question and we have to take a short break, but we will expand on it uh, just after stitching the the

take a fresh look around there's a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by how us to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills. and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground? can the

welcome back to all the parts with gabby bonus, senior research here at the jerusalem institute for strategy and security assistant building before i interrupted you, you started talking about self defense and self defense is indeed something that is real coins. uh, it, on many occasions and something that special also involves to justify its military operation in, in the ukraine. do you think it's a legitimate, the side of the ground as part of the, when the cri, you know, that the, to a lot in another country. oh, you're allowed, you're allowed to to be x on says be sense. what if you want, if you are effects your self defense i, i mentioned that russia, i did not say that the through x as is self defense. i said that it was a i a, the, the, on my understanding what this to last shot is texting under the, the sense of self defense. imagine, but the russian troops are,

are deployed on the border between mexico and the united states. what the, what was the united states doing this sonata? i'm show that there were lots of states. we're not thought at such and ask here the conflicts color because this tension between russia and nathan russian, the west has been, had been boiling for many years prior to 2022. it wasn't a proxy for him. cyber attacks, a, you know, military drills, chemical lapse, what have you, diplomatic strive, but it wasn't kinetic. what do you think allowed for these uh, sort of under the carpet conflict to become fully expressed more on the battlefield. first the point was that an initiative of the government, the federal government, the russian government has stopped him. and how do you understand that the server? yes, i understand that the 1st of all before the, the and then i'll state if you begin actually to connect to close. typically

because there was some, some of the when you know, i'll still be facing other means, you know, this now with the, the for mission at all and what's the quote information, and compare. and so the influence on people that influence the only thing for wars i hear force has been acting very much. and i don't know if it's a complement or not, but the size of very, very well known this list in, in the, my immediate but it was such as well known for its ability to conduct this kind of a pleasures with yes, absolutely. this and i have my, do, i know that russia is active all over the world in europe. even now, what do you actually mean by that? because i've been working with these general, which has been described as a propaganda bullhorn. i've been working here for the years, but i tried to do all list analysis with a saw the 3 actually live on the same planet. but if it's a, you know, comes up in the nuclear mushroom and nobody real bad at the 1st of all, the dresser is not the only one that's going back to implement. so pollution every,

every state the responsible states will use the different influence operation, which is a, you know, on a cell phone to propagation of your views on the team for wars once one. no, no, no, no, as long as they own it for us, of course, it is not honest. a few of us, your views is okay. but the problem for us and start to affect how people, for example, in germany or in poland or into both, takes the think and act and using what we call influence stores or fake news or whatever, whatever do you want to use to, to convince them. also to in the pull her eyes the, the scores until make good to call it is february the i don't see a rush i using to be honest with you. i don't see rushing using too much faith was, i mean like we have the trunk showing us i, i don't know what this to send you more than not to because of prussia. i don't know what to say anymore. only god knows what is true. we are now facing, you know,

when i read something, i don't know i, i believe nothing with everything or whatever. only my mind and sometimes my mind is, is money. tutors is by others and i don't know that it has been manipulated. throw seasonal effect or any more you don't know what these through as well, so everybody's using the best way to get their goals will be it through beef non true. nobody knows. now the americans like to say that a perception is reality, and this is actually one of the ways they used to post world view onto the rest of the world. and i think one of the reasons why the russians launched a military operation in ukraine is to prove that the reality is reality. and if your security interest off threatened, you have to respond not just by words, but by actions. disney russia will succeed in that. i researched it 1st operation during the transaction was the 1st year. and so trying to understand what the, what, what's going on the current site also active very, very much into so,

you know, everybody is active. you. so, and this is a part of the war. now it's become a part of where you, you don't use only can ethics use also can we in the war through influence operation only can you when of conflicts through influence, authoration, sorry us. so in my view to the, you know, to the, for see and future without shifting bullets and without getting your money on your books, there is no way to win anymore. now i drew some parallels between these riley pl listing and conflict and the were in ukraine. and i think one major difference is that whenever these rarely posting in strive goals kinetics, there are always efforts to mediate or at least their calls for a cease fire. but in the case of your brain, we haven't seen any meaningful efforts. you mention these statements by former israeli government. there have been some to rings and all that. a capitals, but nobody gave it a real hard effort. why not? why not?

yeah, well i, i think that the you, russia and ukraine did not receive a claim. these grand is not alone because ukraine is somehow authorized that slash money to later, bye bye. and americans solved by western countries. and the end, the, the, the, the, the months of fuel could i in or is that asking are, and, and not acceptable by the, by our shop. they the, it does not match, you know, they want to go to the board. this of the 9091 or something that i don't and it does not match. so as long as they stay on those 2 um bullet points, it went up to and it doesn't matter if you bring the money out to the table or bring someone else to the table trying to get terms between the size. it has to be, you know, i've read recently the last to days that there is, there is a reduction in european say population so far for us to,

to continue supporting your claim. and that is that eviction in america support to continue to support that you can just see what's happened through the logic now in, in the corporate us in the, in america. and maybe maybe they, you know, the restaurants is a huge part of this. i don't mess with the russians and, you know, maybe, uh, the russians are waiting. they have enough energy to wait until the you can use one of them or say, okay, i wonder we stopped. this is extra level. so i think a very interesting parallel because for many years the united states, despite claiming neutrality, has been squarely on israel side. but uh, more recently, uh, the american support for israel hasn't been voted, but it has become less prominent, maybe less for right before friday. do you think this thing could happen to ukraine? because i know you've been the very strong advocate of self sufficiency when it comes to israel on defensive matters. dissing your credit has any 1st of ours,

i don't, i don't want to fiddle for the gotta think, isn't it? i'm, i'm, i'm a dental card for many is that is what i should not rely on anyone for it. so defense is an actual defend itself by itself we, we don't need all the time. you can do that without the americans. for 4th financial, the board, the military in our independence will. okay. in 48, and we will 600000 people against a huge the minute the, the tech on the slides for from old out of states trying to conquer the joyce. this mode to a settlement. that's what it means that i'm i say i'm, i'm sure we can do it because i, well, we have a behind us 3000 years of historic, and we've managed and we wanna manage. and the, i don't know they're about to create new client is relying on just so that the numbers, the 45000000000 dollars of america, the support from the us through the last couple of us. and this is no, it was amounts of money. so i don't think that your client is going to abandon is

a, it's a what they perceive as the eliza on, you know, and, and the, and i hope that the nato is not pushing too much to enter your brain, turned into an a to this will escalate the situation completely into a position. i think whoever i will not throw out even the use of nuclear, you know it's, it's, it's very sensitive, distortions, reticence, and i, i really, we, i don't people of piece the, an oil one piece. and i hope there, the, there will be found the before the solution for the conflict in russian. well, uh, the difficulty with finding the peaceful solution is that it's not just about the conflict of interest, a conflict between russia and ukraine. it's also about, you know, brother architecture in europe and i seem to as the sort of look the, the, the, and the we had now discussions about the, the, the issue that america has been with an isaac. it's donna making it as

a military monetizing meaning sizing, the economy and the, and, and this creates a counsellor lucian, china, and i'll show you in other, right, you know, but as in south america, the south africa, i'm sorry to also south america at the foot to create an independent financial and framework not to rely on the dollar and not to rely on. and this i think, is going to be their reactions for you. and in the end, maybe it's most, although that's what i'm not to, you know, and it's only focusing on the american economy because it said we need some kind of more redundant. see in this well or self sufficiency or equality. it says it is. and then we have learned, also for on this will you know, that the, the, the health system of euclid has been destroyed by the russians. and

the, and the, and the, you know, this is so not only get go so it can happen easily by all readings. and we have to find ways for to secure our health system for attempt to go and listen done to secure wraps with supply. allison done and to make sure that is rarely self sufficient, was it as much as it can? can i ask you one of those questions because israel also has to think about winning the so called hearts and minds of the people on the other side. do you think there's anything that russia can authentically offer it to ukraine to increase the chances of the settling on a national basis and possibly keeping the big american proxy a b is there, i would presume to nothing at all. it would be presumptuous to me to, to try to advise that are simple i'm, i'm asking about your opinion. yeah. my opinion, but i have to, you know, when i have to intervene and it has to be based on something with what i don't feel

that my bases is sort of enough about the conflicts. i'm, as i told it, with my, my main, my main concern about is about our conflicts and how to manage. for example, i know that it will be very difficult for is that the, when the house and minds of the ops, okay. the coffee is very, very deep and the which is not very deep in the, in your crime between, you know, most of you could, i have some options. yeah. you know, well, that's a very, yeah, you know, the wrong with the numbers or manuals incidence options. well, they don't consider themselves russians any more. absolutely what is supposedly that they would actually look historically? i mean many as the one on caesar, oakley, i ment. okay, this is the last as i would exaggerate 100 years. and while we are with the on up. so we have a story, so it's a, you know, so out of conflict is deeper, is i understand that it's easier to getting tennessee they will kind of go so far

when that these virus still getting things without a well, i hope you, the honest with the policy number, because without ups and just seeing that then, you know, is the, is wing medical. so is the, with the around the corner of the agreements and with the, the saudi arabia. now hopefully we will have to be solved the area and try to isolate the policy being an issue with the out of issues, which is very important for us. well, that's how the, both of this conflicts us settled in our lifetime lifetimes, mississippi, the f one to make you less that the, i don't you have case mike, i have kids. i told them, look, you're heavy enough. also you're going to have, you know, well, uh, i'm not the, i'm really uh, well, uh, i don't know if it's a notes domestic or a pessimistic nose, but we have to live with there. thank you very much for being with us. thank you for watching hope this. here again, was the part the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the for them us launch this operations against israel, the western world, as usual, declared it was an unprovoked attack. this is not surprising. as with the conflict in ukraine,

the west refuses to accept that he is responsible for his client states disruptive and he legal behavior. the . this is really full, says attack the rough odd shape point to the egyptian border, blocking the only roots for gaza locals to leave. and you have said that the attacks on israel will not go unpunished. must terrace will have nowhere to flee in the street. we will get to them wherever they are, the disturbing images from gaza, where the palestinian red presence as the health care system is. the loves updates really attacks on medical facilities. we stand with israel,