they displays the inhabitants of the jews, get so and brought them here. not only jews were thrown into this hole in don't boss. we have a multinational people. many people were thrown into this hole. the main thing is to preserve the memory. it must be preserved because if we forget our ancestors a roots, the fates of our grandfathers, then there will be no future ammonia. the recent standing ovation given to the former ukrainian vol vanessa as far to you ever. so i've homecoming the canadian parliament on the attempt by us tech to stay on the blink and to revive the history of the massacre of jews at bobby. ah, it should stand as a warning. they say that dangerous historical revisionism is edging not to apologize in one step closer to the mainstream. but the people have done yes, one forgets they all stead falls, they never fees or to allow fos you them to gain a foothold in the region. once more. this is steve sweeney for all

t in. don't yet city. that's right, that's all for me for now. but this thing with us, my colleague mike of watch, is an x by the welcome to was a part of it. just reading and a hunger from knowledge have little things perceived as purchase and hallmarks of procedures paving the way to higher consciousness. but what if i told you that one of history's most of the tory is dictate is joseph stalin is both developed

worshipper and the highest priest of his own library. in fact, this is where he died surrounded by books and manuscripts rather than his loved ones. how did style is lot of books in form, his ruling style or to discuss it? i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts managers, professor of history at the university college park, an officer of sullens library, the dictator and his books. professor rober it's, it's great to talk to you in person this time. thank you very much for your time and thank you for an invitation. now your book style is library. ssl is to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you described as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. and i think it's a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage with that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. why did you decide to do it at this point of time?

well, what would you come? i'm the most important thing the trans sounded by my broken up as strong as that he was an intellectual. he was a man, man of ideas, as well as action. he believed in the transformative power. while it is not just in terms of changing people's consciousness, maintenance of tracking human nature and as a couple of boxes, the socialist, you know, he was committed not just to the transformation of human societies, but the transformation of people including himself so so easy is engaged went with books with reading, move up with ideas, was a very, it was a very profound you guys were on the comp, i'm sandstone as a person. also your cost time as a political back to con, understand all the bad things that we associate with, with a lift style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. and i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the book see right and how we read them,

how we mocked them. it is the most amazing source. it's the most intimate source, the most from time useful source. the most revealing sol, so i feel like it's an expiration of stones intellectual life is life as a reader. but it's also an ex relation of installing as a political actor. he also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. as fact, with books manuscripts studios because his personal library was very, very extensive. i wonder if looking at him through the slides has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may the your understanding of he's evil makes you a little bit more new ends. yeah, absolutely. i to prison. i wrote this book actually was okay, i've written a number of books about style and they'll connect deeply strongly by wanting to write a wide range and book about stanley, but didn't really want to want, right. i,

i biography. so the seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular so the actual but also very, very personal in the, in the various chain way. sure. yeah, but, but, but i went to the reason i went to i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i haven't really fully comes terms was 12 and as a person though i see as, as a political actor. and so that's why i wrote this particular book and yeah, it, it, well, it was a journey of, of discomfort as far as i was concerned, i suppose the most important thing i discovered on that journey was that, okay, yes, you know, style name was the intellectual a man of ideas, a great read the he was a communist, he was a marxist. right? but the thing our discomfort didn't really understand before was the, he was a feeling intellectual, right? emotional that some power, always audiology and politics, right? and it's the emotionality, the emotional falls off. he's all i deal with you,

these politics which enabled him to actually rule in the particularly falling to pick tutorial where he could do something emotionality of style and as a, as a dictator and insulation that, that what that was the crucial revelation. somebody, they also have a point which i'd like to mention here because some actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional intellectual. would that be emotional if you come from? and the last that question i think is that it coming from stallings early christian opry, before starting mostly developed monk safety was a deep christian. and i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional religious. you haven't really deals to feed into his mouth as a communist, the and socialist. yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says, and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for many of the leaders of his time. many bolsheviks at

least now. uh you, you mentioned that many or stalins books contain extensive markings rich to quote, to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power and up. he was a true believer in the strength of the word and it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was long as the meaning making capacity. and i think you already partially answered my question, but i want to oppose it. and on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman that's about the way style is related to not just the word but know which they know says yeah. and just the truth, the point you might be the last go. those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing, ninety's boxes. i think that's true, but i think the thing about the library is, is that you can actually see that in the source is on the page. as you can see, the stallings though is that feat savings. yeah. up i suppose. the other thing is

to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively, did you break with pieces? were they just operating? yeah, stalling. didn't see. okay. is that the magic marxist? he believed in the intrinsic and internal truth of marxism. but that wasn't for him . a mattress size, it was a mattress, but what do you consider to be thoughts? so scientific o absorbs of ation. yeah. so you know that there's an emotional connection between just on is a question, installing this as a communist. but at the intellectual crew cab uh, connection is much less. it is much more tenuous. now as you write in your book, like all the bolshevik leaders style in believe that the reading could help transform no just people's ideas and consciousness, but fewer nature itself, he, sore riders ends as a engineers of the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book,

and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or re meg, the human soul, i think there is usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. what do you think makes dolling so bent on re making their human so and i'm asking here, not the you. i'm asking and not as a historian, but it truly is a human being because it's a very intimate personal notation. does it look to you as a really interesting question of a postal question? i'm going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. all of them believe in reading engagement body is all of them had big libraries so strongly wasn't unique in that respect. okay. yeah, i guess this question about transform submission stuff. yeah, we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly gross, be in that direction and they're doing that because to their ideas that he tokens,

they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature. but they're seeking, it's possible, of course, they don't the truth because that's one of the fundamental use of the soviet project to solve it. so just the site you get to actually create that utopia that they're striving for. now, personally, i can understand that because i will see you type in an id just myself as a young man. so i understand that strong thing. and i also understand, you know, the personal emotional figure of it, trying to cross something which can't quite get there any. do you understand, you know, the difficulty is you have to so what that, so skepticism about it. so i have so there's a little personal insight into this book as well. that goes to the chemist between me installer is that still on remind to not do this giving main the utopian, he was forever across the. so this is power of protective team from biology to some extent. then i'm also an avid student of psychology. and then psychology,

idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. they are considered to be a typical psychological defense is when do you don't want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line then address it in yourself. yeah, i kind of agree with that, but let's don't forget the point of making the about the emotional basis of storage police. so these are geology i'm, i'm politics, let's know, sort and also on the site the importance of kind of the rational for that. this has thing. so it easy. we believe this idea is an error. rational grounds are imperial, browse for his belief. no, i'm not saying he's right, but i don't to know how to rush the directionality. oh, it's boxes and so you know, it is like it's a combination of this combination of it kind of get to personality and emotionality

. combination of very typical steps. human psychological attracts missiles, look at the, a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what we would now call emotional intelligence. you don't believe that he's feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from his coughing gift capacity. and i wonder if you've been able to track, not only he's emotional reading of others, but he's own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those. uh, you know, markings on the sides of the books. i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even the sense it's impossible for me to actually summarize the actually it was the davis inklings in yourself when you felt okay. i think this is a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. he imagines himself to be and terms of these library. yeah,

that's the whole point of it. yeah, the whole point stories library has his private reading. yes, he's personal. well, we'll see if he would be read sometime later. yeah. well i think that's probably true. maybe towards the end of his life. yes. yeah. he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like me over our research is just like many i'd be coming in his ear. so i thought no, no but but no, did the actual quality of these markings. it's very spontaneous, it's very, it's very, very, very, very well. thank you. that's absolutely correct. there is an element of performance here. bates of very, very simple and adam context with a confidential context with style in you speak your right to your editing. yeah. then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the opposite of obviously he's putting on the chart. that's not the case when the talking about his personal event that's, that's the interest. that's the power of the soul. well, i tried to do,

and i tried to, you know, don't tell you this to show, showed read how this works for now we have to take a very short break. we will be back to discussing it in a short time. thank you very much. the, [000:00:00;00] the, the question was a part of the geoffrey roberts ameritas professor of history of the university college, of course, of all federal sullens library,

a dictator of his books. professor roberts, uh, in your book you suggested selling div north, re, quote from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely entrusts keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. and in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider a wrong or adversarial one needs to have a degree of flexibility versus intuitive. and toler ends, which is not how styling is remember, what do you think compelled him to engage with the other? do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office? i'm not sure the i'd, i'd used to live tolerance in relation to style it, but certainly flexibility. okay. the sale it's the opposite of us a bit. so it does to, to that, to yeah, in the context of him being an adult, much at mazda. yeah. yeah. so it wasn't

a big surprise to me when i discovered the stone as an intellectual retina. yeah. he was a learning intellectual. that's not such a, not such a big, big a big surprise to what this surprised me was how much engaged with his political opponents and how much he, he loved from his political political opponents. yeah. okay. so, and he was a marxist that he believed in boxes and a lot of his reading was mostly stuff, obviously stuff, comedy stuff. right. but. but he was prepared to read anything in that and then he won. right. and he was prepared to learn from tell you, taught the estimate from that and i'm the guy still using the book is, is the study is trust, the trust time was much more in the image of trotsky. it as an intellectual. yup. for quite a long time. let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style. and as you describe him as gifted the risk practicalities a strong wells and persistence in carrying out his aims, but also devoid of creative imagination,

restrictive in his learning methods and political horizons and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. he also rode the style and always seemed to it to humans waste as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle on him. playing 1st was not due to style and so who talents, but rather be backsliding of the system. i wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferiority on the part of style and don't you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw and trotsky but lacked in himself? no, no, i don't see that so solid. he was supreme really confident, as an intellectual. he was his own mind. he's on the box. it's just, you know, he's a totally me as a person, as a political outcomes. not georgie, came from within himself as an and an intellectual. here. he didn't call 12 to anyone. jennings, no need to present himself as being the names of people who got the best student of land. but he did. he was a photo of learning but, but he, uh, yeah,

he wasn't the prison of lending and changing his personality. acosta. i think clearly demonstrate that there was the bed. so yeah, but, but trust, because denigration of style is i'd like to very, very influential feeling the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decays now. yep. oh yeah. especially perhaps in the west. 5th across. absolutely . but, but that, that perceptions change even in the less than probably a function of the fact we felt the classes over here in the, opened up as a rush at all cause historians and i was a much, much more materials. but you know, to work with and this is your pint is a completely different picture, not just the styling, but how sort of system from the one you get get from chelsea. and one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cause has the, the extent to which talk was an intellectual, unintended guys of ideas. unlike both, this is part of that, that body of what both cost. i have a particular and

a sustained focus on strong st. actual fitting in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. as before, now it's demons access to for in books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didn't know any other language, other than russian and trojan. and yes, you point out that style him had the high regard and diligence interest for he's political contemporaries, like winston churchill or uh, franklin delano roosevelt juicing that. the interest was reciprocated, dancing they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. oh boy, absolutely. i mean, one of my other specialities is that you as you are you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd world war. i'm particularly the relationship between style in a church you and was like, yeah, and this does note the um, the great respect that the rules of the contractual has this don't include respect for stallings no much. no, no,

they do. but let's see. and the profundity of the oh, obviously thinking what i found fascinating is that style in started the american constitution. and i think it was almost a known both in russian. and the west was that he was a paper sided over and was very much engaged in the works of the soviet constitutional commission that was tasked with drafting the soviet constitution of 1936 that's at least in writing, attempted to give uh or a to encourage more active restaurants, political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors which some millions of people to the depths or to the, to the glove. and one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this either secrecy between putting so much time in out part of inches starting have various societies for government because i think that was his key interest in old. but he is a reading for, says,

i'm here reverting so quickly so ruthlessly to the tyranny of the iron hand. how do you understand that, you know, the patients with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and the governing stories overwriting the perotti was to defend socialism defend the revolution finally signed them to be sent to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism and no names for patrick, engage in all kinds of projects, activities which he saw us to bring the coals, including your link, you know, the new constitution on the 36 constitutional kinds kinds of other things. but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to the play level funding the revolution at the, at the costs to other huge cost to his society and his people. absolutely. because yeah, apps, because he was

a utopia. yeah. he believe this action was necessary. believe he said that money funds, this actually is forced upon us by a number is right. if we don't do this out and it is all going to crushes that, that is the less than history. it's dawn as a read it. okay. it's times of boxes. most of them was a big thing. police favorite topic was history and the on the list especially. yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. i was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional law and probably a few minutes if you're integrating. it's an interest, it seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. he thought he's of, he's on research, there's not really very important point. it's not always doctors on research, always talk his own reading professor representing the display that i see here, or if his perceive is that he puts so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. but he doesn't have the strings because pasadena patients to put it into practice. because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your actions, you know,

putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. but it's almost like he persist. um, i'm damaging drops and the reverse to the old methods that he's defending against. yeah. well i think he pursues them as far as he can. but as i said, you know, he's prepared to do what i say. but the kind of argument you've made, it's kind of argument many people invite it in relation to style. it was just a note the disjunction between his theory and his practice time. yeah, you know, in this the limitations the limits ations okay, of, of him. so as to how does that mean to actual, if i signal essentially i 2 very serious read installing. sometimes it can be quite profound and certainly that very effective. but in the end, you know, the piece of limits. it's the human being or the geology policy. so deeply full, right is political practice is usually kind of problematic. the reason you said

because of the impact of these. so if he's your disorder real on society, i don't own i'm on millions of people folks. i'm not trying to cover anything of the month of yet for any points. one, status, let's go to a force. here's any heights update site to and t 's books. and for the whole book, i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong is big to, to lower real. i'm trying to reply to some explanation, some of the come on. so to, to know why this kind of look actually quite sensitive. feeling intellectual is in many wise, controlled as bad stuff as well. now we're talking before about this quantity of religious added to the started and had towards the books and knowledge to the office. and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of stalin was specific to russia is collective sold. because if we look at the roof, the history of russia literature, the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century,

with all these painful soul searching. i wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like style in atlanta was also an out today that was the inevitable. yeah. what as far as the rusher is concerned, stone courses for it kinda looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian sold and the essential. or is it very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know its own way just the way out of that i'm doing things by yourself exploring. yeah, i mean very stubborn. yeah, i feel good. i don't expect somebody to points to, i mean, i don't think strongly but so you can self that way. i don't think he would accept your analysis and i don't think i do of, you know, i think i don't think you need to result to those kind of explanations. in over 20 . i think it's much more straightforward, but to actually see stein for what he was he chose because of the day. so as a communist, as i'm office, as a political act, uh, products, a child of his society and that society's long history,

i'm certain for the elections and patterns, but he was nobody. he was fundamentally product toby's on, but she still is going to die. that of he's own self education, right, to my office, political police and commitments, marxism company. much, much more sense to locate style in combat context. i think anyway, down it doesn't, you know, the context of the russian tradition but, but maybe maybe that may speak to that somebody speaking from, from my experience. so as we mentioned earlier in the angel as a young man, i was very likes, don. except i was a pass if it's relevant to live by that's but for you, what very lucky the menu i so political activities, some, some i'm speaking from my experience, right. but maybe from a russian perspective, it's not going to pay a very different. i don't want to get too close to contemporary politics, but i do think that they sort of alternate that no 6 tendency coupled with a sense of rushes to this thing. destiny is very inherent to the russian that is shipped. and if you look at why them,

they're putting his also out today that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. and i think he is, or he's very open about it. he reads history, books, northwell, azure, but for governing the inside. yeah, i think you're there, there are lots of very interesting um, comparisons to me by between installing the printer. i, i don't think about that. see pushing as intellectual. i have to say in the same step. okay, put anything guides of ideas, but i don't think the, i don't get the impression anyway. there was central his to his consciousness please. is like be that they would stalling. yeah. so so yeah. so, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature course of history. yeah. i mean, just posting is this for magical about the history of stalling was actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main comparisons are up to voice 3 to my while i'm thinking about stalling

them. thirty's, 2 things. firstly, that was petra, it's a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational. and that's the break come to that, the r c between the soviet union, the saw, and the russian federation that both of forensically multinational multi ethnic studies about stalling uprooted committee to defending that in multi that multinational character of all of their respect. respect is respect to this, but i have one last question and we only have a few seconds for john for it. but i wonder if the sums of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russia and the west. this argument over low risk over for the wars with capital w, the ride to the worth and the ride to come up with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. i, i guess i would tend to agree with you in a way, you know,

in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always brings to my mind the origins of, to prefer both of the soviet period to solve. so if it goes to the system, right, and you know, a good deal at d deal at the logical stuff of fanaticism. i'm done with it, some of stalling that as, as, as, as, as a marxist, a company. so i think that, yeah, that's a very interesting point that you might have to live in there and thank you very much for your time in. thank you. congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book. looks like super true, very intriguing and insightful land pleasure. and hope hopefully it was also your pleasure. thank you for watching. and hope to hear again on was a part of the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the task, but a lot reportedly raises the red flags signifying funds and edits. all right here, manage your basis across the board is twice intensified between 11 am and as well also ahead. the disturbing images from gathers largest hospital last to reach is a breaking points over on with casualties from the mountain walk. a special sales, a $700.00 policy. and so the thing says, slide the slide at on the other side of the car,