[000:00:00;00] the welcome to was a part of it just reading and a hunger from knowledge have long been perceived as purchase and homeworks of procedures paving the way to higher consciousness. but what if i told you that one of history's most of the tory is dictate is joseph stalin is both developed worshipper and the highest priest of his own library. the fact this is where he died, surrounded by books and manuscripts,

rather than his loved ones. how did spellings, lot of books in form, his ruling style of to discuss it. i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts managers, professor of history at the university college park, an officer of sullens library. as a dictator, as his books. professor roberts, it's great to talk to you in person this time. thank you very much for your time and thank you for the invitation. now your books style is library ssl to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you described as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. and i think it's a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage for that rather than dismiss it and condemn it out of hand. why did you decide to do it at this point of time? well, what would you come on? the most important thing between sounded by my broken up as strong as that he wasn't intellectual. he was a man, man of ideas,

as well as action he believed in the transformative power. while it is not just in terms of changing people's consciousness, maintenance of tracking human nature and as a couple of months as the socialist. you know, he was committed not just to the transformations he was, the thought is, but the transformation of people including himself so. so is it, his engagement with books, with reading the invite is, was a very, was a very profound. you guys were, i mean you comp, i'm sandstone as a person also because time it has a political act con, understand all the bad things that we associate with, with a lift style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. and i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the book see, read it and how we read them, how we mocked them. it is the most amazing. so it's the most intimate source, the most from time useful source, the most revealing, sol,

so i feel like it's an expiration of stones, intellectual life is life as a reader. but it's also an ex relation of installing as a political act. uh, you're also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. as fact with books manuscripts p. o, because his personal library was very, very extensive. i wonder if looking at him through these lines has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may. it your understanding you'll see is it will make you a little bit more new and yeah, absolutely. i took, the reason i wrote this book actually was okay, i've written a number of books about style and they'll connect deeply strongly by want to write a wide range and book about stanley, but didn't really want to one, right. i, i biography. so the seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular. so what was the actual but also very,

very personal in a, in a very strange way. sure. yeah, but, but, but i went to the reason i went to i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i haven't really fully come to terms with colleagues as a person though i see as, as a political actor. and so that's why i wrote this particular book, and yeah, it was, it was a journey of, of discomfort as far as i was concerned. and i suppose the most important thing i just got put on that journey. was that okay. yes, you know, stalling me most intellectual amount of ideas. a great read the. he was a communist, he was a marxist. right. but the thing i described, which i didn't really understand before was the, he was a feeling intellectual from the emotional that from power. all these audiology and politics, right? and it's the emotionality to emotional falls off. he's all i deal with to these postings, which enabled him to actually rule in the particularly falling to pick tutorial what he did, something emotionality of style. and as a, as

a dictator. and insulation that, that what that was the crucial revelation, somebody, they also have a point which i'd like to mention it because i'm actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional intellectual. would that be emotionality, comfortable? and he asked that question, i think, is that it coming from stallings early christian upbringing before starting mostly develop monk safety. was that the, the christian and i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional religious. you haven't really josephine in so he's marked as a communist the and socialist. yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says, and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for many of the leaders of his time. many bolsheviks at least now. uh you, you mentioned the many or stalins books contain extensive markings, rich to quote,

to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power and up. he was a true believer in the strength of the word and it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was longer as the meaning making capacity. and i think it already partially answered my question, but i want to oppose it. and on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman that's about the way style is related to not just the ward but know which they know says yeah. and just the truth of the point you might be the last go. those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing, ninety's boxes. i think that's true, but i think the thing about the library is that you can actually see that in the source is on the pages you can see solving spelling, stick feet, savings. yeah. up. i suppose. the other thing is to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively, did you break with pieces? were they just operating?

yeah, stalling. didn't see. okay. is that the magic marxist? he believed in the intrinsic any tunnel truth of marxism. but that wasn't for him. a mattress size, it was a mattress. what do you consider to be thoughts? so scientific o absorbs of ation. yeah. so you know that there's an emotional connection between just on is the question, installing this as a communist, but at the intellectual crew. a connection is much less, it is much more tenuous. now as he reading your book, like all the bolshevik leaders style and believe that the reading could help transform no just people's ideas and consciousness but human nature itself, he, sore writers, ends as a engineers of the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or re meg, the human soul,

i think there is usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. what do you think makes dolling so bent on re making their human so, and i'm asking a here not the you. i'm asking and not as a historian, but it truly is a human being because it's a very intimate personal notation as a to you as a really interesting question of a postal question. i'm not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. all of them believe in reading engagement body is all of them had big libraries so strongly wasn't unique in that respect. okay. yeah, i guess it this question about transform submission stuff. yeah. we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both. it's constantly grosse, be in that direction and they're doing that because to their ideas that he tokens, they genuinely kind of like, believe that this transformation of human nature, they see thing is possible,

of course they don't the tree fit because that's one of the fundamental studies use of the soviet property to solve it. so just the site you get to actually create that utopia that they're striving for. now personally, i can understand because i will see you type in an id this myself as a young man. so i understand that strong thing and i also understand, you know, the personal emotional figure of it trying to process something which can't quite get there any. do you understand, you know, the difficulty is you have to so what that so skepticism about it. so i have so there's a little personal insight into this book as well. that goes to the chemist between me, installer is this don remained an idealist giving main the utopian. he was the rather prospect for this ideal. his power of protective came from balancing to some extent, and i'm also an avid student of psychology. and then psychology, idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. they are considered to be

a typical psychological defense is. when do you don't want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line and then address it in yourself. yeah, i kind of agree with that, but let's don't forget the point i'm making the about the emotional basis of storage police. so these audiology a politics list also and also posted on the site the importance of kind of the rational for that. this has things so it easy you believe this idea is an error resto grounds there in beautiful browsers police? no, i'm saying he's right. but i don't know how to rush the directionality. oh, it's boxes. and so, you know, it is like, it's a combination of this combination of it kind of like to personality and emotionality. combination of very typical steps, human psychological tribes. this of set up the, are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. can i ask you

something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what we would now call emotional intelligence. you don't believe that he's feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from his coughing gift capacity. and i wonder if you've been able to track not only he's emotional reading of others, but he's own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books. but i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even in the sense it's impossible for me to actually summarize the actually here. i think he was the davis inklings in yourself when you felt okay. i think this is a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. he imagines himself to be in terms of these library. yeah, that's the whole point of it. yeah, the whole point stories library has his private reading. yes, he's personal. well,

what do i say if he would be read sometime later? yeah. well, i think that's probably true. maybe towards the end of his life. yes. yeah. he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like video. rather research is just like many be coming in his ear, so i thought no, no but, but no, did the actual quality of these markings. it's very spontaneous. it's very, it's very, very, very, very well. thank you. that's absolutely correct. there is an element of performance here, but it's a very, very simple and adam and i have a context with a confidential context with style in you speak your right. so your editor. yeah. then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the sort of obviously he's putting on the chart. that's not the case when the talking about his personal event that's, that's the interest. that's the power of the social. well, i try to do if i try to, you know, tell you this to show showed read how this works for now we have to take a very short break. we will be back to discussing it in

a short time. thank you very much. the on the back towards the parts van geoffrey roberts ameritas, professor of history university college of course of all,

several felons library and dictator. as his books. professor roberts, uh, in your book you suggest the selling div north, re quote from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely on trust. keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda, fully dismissed. and in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider a wrong, or a very serious one, needs to have a degree of flexibility, versa to, to, and toler ends, which is not how styling is remember, what do you think compelled him to engage with the other, do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office? i'm not sure the i'd used to live tolerance in relation to style it, but certainly flexibility. okay. and the sale it's the opposite of us a bit. so it does to, to that, to yeah, in the context of him being an adult,

much at mazda, of yeah, yeah. so it wasn't a big surprise to me when i discover the stone as an intellectual retina. yeah. he was a learning intellectual. that's not such a, not such a big, big a big surprise to what this surprised me was how much he goes to his political opponents and how much he, he loved the from his political, political opponents. yeah. okay. so he was a marxist that he believed the marks isn't a lot of his reading was mostly stuff, obviously stuff, comedy stuff. right. but. but he was prepared to read anything of that and then he won. right. and he was prepared to learn from tell you, taught this many, i'm not and i'm the guy still using the book is, is the study is his prostate trust the time was my, it's more than the image of trotsky. it as an intellectual. yep. for quite a long time, let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style. and he describes him as a gift to the risk practicality, a strong well and persistence in carrying out his aims,

but also devoid of creative imagination, restricted in his learning methods and political horizons, and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. he also rode the style and always seemed to it to humans waste as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle on him. playing 1st was not due to style and so who talents, but rather the backsliding of the system. i wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferior warranty on the part of style and don't you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw and trotsky but lacked in himself? no, no, i don't see that. so style he most of probably confidence as an intellectual. he was his own mind, his own monks. it's just, you know, he's autonomy as a person, as a political outcomes. not georgie came from within himself as an end to an intellectual . here he didn't call to any what any w e to present himself as being the names, people who got the, the best student, the land. but he did, he was

a photo of lending. but, but he, yeah, he was in the prison of lending and changing his personality. acosta, i think clearly demonstrates that things are with the bed. so yeah, but, but trust is denigration of stallings. they apply to very, very influential feeling. the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decays now. yep. oh yeah. especially perhaps in the west. 5th across. absolutely . but, but that, that perceptions change even in the lesson. probably a function of the fact we thought the collapse the sort of union the opened up as a rush at all cause historians and i was a much, much more materials. but you know, to work with. and this is your page is a completely different picture, not just stalling about the whole solar system from the one you can get from trophy . and one of the discoveries of the post soviet period in the all cause has the, the extent to which talk it was an intellectual, unintended guy, simple ideas. and my focus is part of that, that body of what. but of course,

i have a particular and the sustain focus on strong things, actual thinking in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. as before, now it's done is access to for in books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didn't know any other language other than russian in georgia. and yes, you point out that starting had the high regard and diligence interest for he's political contemporaries, like winston churchill or uh, franklin delano roosevelt juicing that. the interest was reciprocated, dancing they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. oh boy, absolutely. i mean, one of my other specialities is as you are you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd world war? i'm particularly the relationship between style in a churchill and originally. yeah. and this does note the, um, the great respect that the rules of the country that you have just on,

including respect for stallings no much, no, no they do. but let's see. and the profundity of the oh, obviously thinking what i found fascinating is that style in started the american constitution. and i think it was almost a known both in russian. and the west was that he was a, he presided over and was very much engaged in the works of the, of the soviet constitutional commission that was tasked with drafting the soviet constitution of 1936 that's at least in writing, attempted to give uh, or a to encourage more active grass roots, political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors we send millions of people to that data or to the, to the gloves. and one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this either secrecy, between putting so much time and effort into starting have various societies for

government. because i think that was his key interest in all. but he is a reading pursuits. i'm here verging so quickly so ruthlessly to the tyranny of the iron hand. how do you understand that, you know, the patients with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and the governing stories overwriting the bro to was to defend socialism, defend the revolution finally signed them to be sent to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism and the email for patrick, engage in all kinds of projects, activities which he saw us to over the coals including your that link. you know, this new constitution on the 36 constitutional kinds kinds of other things. but, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to reply with the funding the revolution. add the at the costs to other huge cost to his society and his people. absolutely. because yeah, apps, because he was

a utopia. yeah. he believe this action was necessary. believe you said that money funds, this actually is forced upon us by enemies. right? if we don't do this out and it is all going to crush us dot, that is the less than history started as a read it. ok. it's times of boxes, most of them is a big thing. police favorite topic was history and the on the list especially. yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. i was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional law and probably a few minutes if you integrated. it's an interest, it seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. he thought he's of, he's on research, there's not really very important point. it's not always doctors on research, always talk is on really purpose of representing the display that i see here, or at least perceive is that people so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. but he doesn't have the strength of the capacity, the patients to put it into practice. because if you want to defend the revolution,

you can defend it by your actions, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. but it's almost like he persist, i'm, i'm them seem drops and the refers to the old methods that he's defending against. yeah. well i think he has them as far as he can. but as i said, you know, he, he's prepared to do what i say. but the kind of argument you've made, it's kind of argument of many people invite it in relation to style. it was just a note, the disjunction between his theory and his practice time, you know, you know, in this the limitations the limitations. okay, of him. so as to how does an intellectual, if i single, essentially i to very serious read in song. sometimes it can be quite profound and certainly that very effective. but in the end, no piece of limits. it's good for the human being or the geology publishing. so deeply full of drugs is political practice is usually kind of

problematic. the reason you said because of the d p impact office. so if he's your disorder real on society, i don't on, on, i'm on millions of people folks. i'm not trying to cover anything of the month of yet for any points. one status was to it's a force has any height. it sites on facebook some for a whole book. i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strongly stick to, to what we're really trying to reply to some explanation, some up come on. so to, to, you know, why this kind of look actually quite sensitive. feeling intellectual is in many ways control of this bad stuff as well. now we're talking before about this quantity of religious added to this started and had tours, uh, but ups and knowledge of the office. and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of stalin was specific to russia is collect the soul. because if we look at the russian history of russian literature of the nonsense or

the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching, i wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like styling the whole landing was also an alternate. that was the inevitable. yeah, what, as far as the russia is concerned, stone coast is very kind of looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian sold and the essential or is it very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know, its own way just the way out to the dime doing things by yourself exploring. yeah, i mean very stubborn. yeah, i feel good. i don't expect somebody to points to. i mean, i don't think strongly but so you can self that way. i don't think he would accept your analysis and i don't think i do of, you know, i think i don't think you need to result to those kind of explanations. in over 20 . i think it's much more straightforward, but to actually see stein for what he was he to us. we saw him today. so as a communist, as i'm office, as a political act, uh, products,

a child of his society and that's the side as long history. i'm searching for the elections and patterns, but he was nobody he was fundamentally of product categories. um, but she says don't i thought that was on self education rocked right off his political police and commitments, marxism company much, much more sense to locate style in combat context. i think anyway, down it doesn't, you know, the context of the russian tradition but, but maybe maybe that may speak to that somebody speaking from, from my experience. so as we mentioned earlier in the angel as a young man, i was very likes, don. except i was a pass if it's relevant to live by that's but for you, what very lucky the menu i so political activities some, some i'm speaking from my experience right up that may be for the rest of the perspectives stock and it's a very different see i don't want to get close to contemporary politics, but i do think that they sort of alternate that no 6 tendency coupled with a sense of the rushes to this thing. destiny is very inherent to the russian that

issue. and if you look at the right and they're putting his also out today, that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. and i think he's or he's very open about it. he reads history, books, northwell, azure, but for governing the inside. yeah, i think you're there, there are lots of very interesting um, comparisons to me by between installing a printer i, i don't think about that. see, pushing as intellectual. i have to say in the same step. okay. pollutants engage. invite is by don't think the, i don't get the impression anyway. there was central, he's to his consciousness please. is like being that i would stalling. yeah. so, so yeah. so, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature costs of history. yeah. i mean, just putting is this for magical about the history of stalling was actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main comparisons are up to voice 3 to my while i'm thinking about stalling

them. 2 things, 2 things. firstly, that was patrick. it's a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational. and that's the break comes in that the r c, between the soviet union, the saw, and the russian federation that both of forensically, of multinational multi ethnic studies above stalling uprooted committee to defend the, that multi that multinational character of all of their respect. respect is respect, is that i have one last question and to be only have a few seconds for you to answer it. but i wonder if the sense of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russian, the west. this argument over low risk over, or the wars with capital w, the rights of the worth and the rights you can most with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. i,

i guess i would tend to agree with you in a way, you know, in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always breaks to my mind. the arch is left to prefer both the still of the soviet period to solve. so if it goes to the system, right. and you know, a good deal at d deal at the electrical stuff of fanaticism and don't mention some of stalling that as, as, as, as, as a marxist, a company. so i think that, yeah, that's a very interesting point that you might have to live in there and thank you very much for your time in. thank you. congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book. looks like super true, very intriguing and insightful land pleasure. and hope hopefully it was also your pleasure. thank you for watching and hope to see her again on was a part of the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the yeah, probably her. my little sister story changed the model girl to i got you. no problem seeing it. i'm out of and those are things arguments he, i side of the drive i showed my brother through. he was sudden to help people for a lo so now i never look at searches as being the same. well, i guess i lost my list. that's the outcome of and i, chicago police, it'd be as gang as a car is like, you get for the police,

you lose your life. as another crime for another one. could have been a doctor or nurse could have been the next president. we can't keep losing people out here, the disturbing images from a the hospital as it hits breaking points, overrun with casualties from the expanding bible over 700 policy. and so the to be killed. the idea of strikes in power is pointing thing to the united states. the minutes used to pull the of it. this is sham. 8 years old. this is use right? 7 years old. look at how young they are to you, a sense weapons to the jews,