on the muscle. so the muscle ma, on the every time you some of everyone who just is just used to sort of support and get our government here to actually go and do a ceasefire. the most urgent thing is to ask you would be in governments to intervene to stop the genocide and go. because a genocide is underway. when we're talking about terrorism on her mazda side, i wonder you have called from us terrace. but what about israel? they have occupied a state and of always murdered or enough takes us to the end of this news lock, but stay close like santa and another fresh slice of worlds that part auction gets going enrollments. this is 247 r t, introduction the

the hello and welcome 12, the part until a few weeks ago. and the conflict in ukraine was treated in western media as a major threat to their rules based order. and the one that is most likely to decide the outcome of a battle between the forces of democratic booth and alter project eagle. the russian of violence in the middle east has manifested a totally new order of brutality which has made it so much more difficult. even for the self assurance west to take sides or both for an easy solutions. what does this process mean for the international system? or to discuss that i'm now joined by demetrius, so slow deputy director of the center for comprehensive,

your opinion and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow . demetrius good to see your again, thank you very much for your time. hello, i saw the nice to meet you. nice to see you or was pleasure. thank you. now, let me 1st ask, you know, there's a schooler but is a colleague of mine as a media professional and for our audience, i want to mention that demetrius also hosting a geo political show called great game on one or for us has biggest channels. and i think is media professionals, we have just witnessed them, major change in the and how global media currents flow, because of the reality and gas it was so unexpected. and so shocking that i think you called many western media old guard, and they were put into situation when they actually have to report on death reality, rather than trying to preemptively shape it or frame it. so in that case, very rare case,

reality seems to be something perceptions. what does it mean in terms of the global uh, informational war? because when they realize it or not their, their reason battle of narrative is going on? well, like a sudden, i think this is a very significant developments in the west on me do a seminal science 1st of course the west, the media. it was called of god. because we all remember as 3 weeks ago. jake's all of them, the national security advisor, united states, tried to convince everyone that the middle east was the most peaceful position within decades right on the west of media seem to believe that they deliberately tried to ignore the question of these available is the new conflict and we'll just kind of be off the brackets thing with forget about it and focus on different things. second point i think that was going. busy in gaza now is a pointing the west of media in

a very awkward position. and the west is basically losing the global information more because israel unquestionably these are part of the bustle of the west. but today, often experiencing this. busy looking at back that or is that back? israel in it's term is conducting a process is of such a scale that you can't really present that support shape the narrative. busy of a justified abrupt. busy and the use of force and just vice self defense you, you can't do it. and this really votes the media in the report with position they step to report on what's going on. instead of trying to shape the narrative of israel being all the good side of history, i wonder how do you understand the math in the apples government seeming resolved to take guys and by force because for all hughes fiber and rhetoric, benjamin netanyahu is known as a highly calculating politicians,

you cannot be ignorant of all the possible repercussions of such a move military civilian economic international. and by proceeding with a military operation is a wouldn't be destroying the very status for the itself. how to create and maintain why take such as future risk as well. uh 1st i, i think, you know, the whole needs, its, uh, 2 bro. lowercase political existence. you know, because people are where they ask questions, how it all would happen. people both of the blame on the a, by the way and his government personally cleaning quite right, lit up that's uh certain in the gaithersburg, the goals at the level of political leadership. and they actually made this situation possible. so they be are the political responsibilities in order to avoid paying the price of. busy that i think about an younger wants to the soul. the card

on the golf live in a bigger conflict. which key is now trying to deliberately create the bigger conflict, i think is a conflict with bureau and what we are seeing. and i think this is of a madison buttons. yahoo is trying to do to shift the narrative to, you know, completely see the narrative claiming that what is going on. he has nothing to do with the goal is the name is really on think percent. the real reason before uh the uh for the crisis is your app. but yeah, the, i mean, you're good to hear something because i think this is a very interesting analysis of the stomach stand having a war with around which is still a state actor. therefore it's far more responsible and in some ways more predictable. what suit israel's current situation because of the one hand you don't have to invade gaza as they have been suggesting or have been

talking about. but on the other hand, it essentially it allows them to have a more. but this sort of an easier way, is that what you're suggesting? well, it's not necessarily easy. it was a, certainly it'd be go more of a war on several fronts because it would definitely involve kids bely in the level . well, in general, it was also editable. it seems to be involved the united states and i say it on yahoo calculus is that if there is such a such an escalation on the wall from just if you're a local conflict in gaza to a broader. busy like at least with. busy be around, you know, brocks is and at the maximum with your on itself the united states will have to engage. and that will, you know, completely switch beverly was attention for all. why actually because the back from the gym is a proxy more, but

a proxy word that will be filled out for a rather than by israel, by the united states. it's the same thing. but shifting the, the burden onto the bigger actor, you have uh, with the help of the united states, nathan, your whole calls to prevail in this brought a conflict when you're on them, eventually a term, a, you know, turn out as and when they're in this ground confront ation against, you know, remote meaning they just talked about with on the floors. but you know, reducing the iranian outrage of the beef lands. busy on the neighboring regions, neighboring regions for uh, for israel envelope i think it is very significant because easily mail is long positioned. your um mobile is damian's most ada spots iran as the major as a special for for itself. so have bailing. busy with this, like the spanish will that will make me the whole. yeah. we are, you know,

one of the biggest winters in the regular history instead of a loser because of domestic political struggles and frictions actually made this, that best buy from us possible. i think these explain skills got on behaviors and don't want to ask her about the is rarely posting and problem which exists for so many days that i think we all have become somewhat detached and desensitize to what is actually happening on the ground. and what is happening on the ground is it is essentially a huge human pressure cooker and in gaza, that's been generating range and resistance for 3 generations. and perhaps one will continue to do so for me anymore. and it's like a real live laboratory for turning humans into human blogs because this is what people become when they're denied some semblance of dignified life. for way too long, can you even think about possible ways of defusing these mixer for co,

explosive device made of millions of human souls? well, i think the oldest way to refuse this problem is degree to release the state. uh, to uh, you know, a change completely, the bullets as we've been conducting with, by israel we, they sell the united states. they should have been deliberately trying, actually, to do solve this problem. you know, by uh, by the settlement flawlessly, by dies elation ball is that uh by 20 people is the name you should be all the brackets by focusing. busy your on by focusing won't be, is really solid. the rep for us mom over the recent uh months. you know, i m, this made this explosion, the really possible inevitable. so if you do be, if you have to create the stadium state, hold and balanced dino state forest. secondly,

you have to guarantee it's existence from the security perspective. for all the bombing perspective, you have to, you know, do invest into ballast. i'm and bring some build up some real economy uh there with the help of neighboring countries. it is in the bristol because like jordan of it, egypt, israel itself because after all, all now we see the, the color black does not really guarantee is really a secure thing. so we have to return to the spirit the awfully agreements of mines and i are to for emily checked, basically depaula's this uh, the kind of been conducting wrongly off the words. but unfortunately more, but just by israel bought by the united states as well. can i ask you something here? uh, because one of your colleagues for the piano uh said recently the one of the things that this or option of wireless has demonstrated is that a strategy of binding time and essentially putting

a frozen conflict on hold on hold in the hold. so if petering out by itself doesn't seem to work, it seems to be pretty dangerous. and the semblance of control that these rails may have had, has been not just broken. it was broken in a very humiliating and i totally sadistic way. but from what you've been suggesting about an agent now 1st attempt to move or to shift all the attention to it to ron, it seems like he's still pursuing the same tactics. what can possibly persuade israel to change its time guessing that americans want to be taking for arrive here by israel? well 1st of course you have to come bell and convince these rail. it leads and society in israel as well. you know, to focus on palestine instead of iraq will be difficult. right. because isabel has indeed convinced itself of your on most of the bullets, damian's being, it's exit stem schultz threat and the real uh and the real a danger. how to do it?

well, i think that the world has changed a significant place since 19 7th is even a 9th in miners. and the major change is the emergence of the world majority. it is a subject of international affairs says something that does cares. huge agency or m, i are, you know, causes like saudi arabia, egypt and target are no longer just objects of great power confrontation. they are the subjects, they are the actors and they can create a new reality together with these were right. uh and uh, i think it, we just are the dimensional community of the world majority. it simply needs to convince israel that it is impossible for uh, easily able to continue. uh, you know, the existing bulldozers as it, as it was,

it was more bring secure to say, you know, the united states as most of the, the kind of the united states that was in my engine light is extra with the interest to let, let me i'm sorry for interrupting you over time, but let me stop your desk here because this is a very important question. the role of the americans in these, this whole configuration. let's address it after a very, very short break. we will be back, stay tuned. the

the welcome back to was a portsmouth demetrius, so slim deputy director of the center for comprehensive if you're a fan and international studies at the higher school of economics and must go metering just before the break we were talking about the, the whole new world demand emerging, the global majority that the needs to put pressure on israel. and of course it's impossible to have this conversation without mentioning the americans who have always assumed the role of a chaperone of these rarely posting and conflicts. and i wonder, uh oh, rather let me repeat the 2nd part of my previous question. that is, do you think the americans want to be used by israel is as the big proxy with big guns with lots of influence. do you think they want to be utilized in such a way that they usually utilize other countries?

low the united states, i think it is our is have put themselves in the very difficult position. first. they are a bite on administration, tries to build bridges with the world majority. i think that you, great and conflict. it showed very explicitly of that the global majorities, multi at the side of the united states. the us is losing global voice and they try to reverse it, white accommodating majors congress in the global majority that including solidarity, which they do not want, you know, farther. 1 a partnership with the, with china and dicing the, actually one of the major reasons why the us for promoting this solid is really rep or as long is to try to at least limits the solid, the bottom if it was driving. so the states move global majority, there's as far as point, but the other hand, you israel, is

a part of american domestic politics, not just the of the us for. busy as a bunch of the american domestic politics, these really question is all you want, you was, you know, that's, you know, it is very difficult for the united states. you know, they try to most to attack an ice israel on the why don't, you know, they can't afford doing that because of the domestic political factors. but they caused the 4th for the is ation of the global majority of the same. but right, and uh, if the, the, what does that mean? it means that the united states, per se, can no longer monopolize the, is available is the new question. they try, they fail, they can no longer continue as the, let's talk about, monopolizing the cause. i mean, i think in this case provides a very important listen, was test for leadership and by leadership, i mean not just the rhetorical statements of support the nation, but the actual,

difficult, painstaking work of why diplomacy, uh, negotiating skills, etc. and it doesn't seem like the united states possesses any of that. i mean, now the situation is actually calling for a bold, responsible leadership on the look at the, the track record, the floating in the united nations security council that they, they don't seem to be able to do anything. and, you know, like, and my question here is actually a, is, this is a, this situation and demonstrating that the united states, even if it wants to be a leader. i mean, it can be a leader in a stations when you know if the participation is not necessary, but when it is calling for it, they don't seem to possess even the skills of approaching it as well. absolutely, absolutely. the, you know, by the continues to say the united states all the world together. i think the reality is just the quarter. i think that's in the middle east. the original

powers, the global majority, or the world much or the cap. and once they have kept the situation together or avoiding escalation, whereas the united states is the reason for these to be licensed agent. and now we see just the questionable proof of that in the case of the escalation in, in the, in the middle east. uh so indeed, the united states cannot provide the necessary on leadership uh the course. it is focused on other priorities because the priorities of the united states is struggling, gave china, and struggling against process and keeping the middle east. either way that it cannot be title dominated by china or why russia. so the view of the situation from the perspective of great baldwin, competition, not from the perspective of regional security. and also from the perspective of day

domestic bulk go combined. the united states cannot be a fair and effective may be either, so you have to add to it creates the participation of the world, the majority of it, comprising of both global actors like russia, china, maybe brazil, you know, the brakes. uh as a cool in the regional player. so of course including israel, but. busy also including your on in the air of a major companies, i as the it as a, as a diesel. i visual collective literacy. so more american junior level one, but collective literature by the world majority, i think is necessary to resolve this prizes now. now, uh, let us bring our discussion a little bit closer to home because of where the last 2 or 3 years we have well been following the confrontation in an over ukraine between russia and the

collective west. and i've heard many on our analyst, including yourself, said that the next world order, the new composition of the international system will be based on the outcome of done by the battle. i wonder if what's happening in the middle east can change the prediction. do you see any implications all for this latest interruption of violence and the focus of international attack attention on it for the ukrainians strong? well, i think that's the needle. eastern conflict is also a very clear indicator of the failure of the west to build new sustainable international order. right? the west of the united states has tried and failed, and now it is impossible to bring sustainable stability into the middle east or the one the oh, i mean you were all been assuming that it's the ultimate goal to create peace and the you know, sustainable development but uh,

on 32 months buying into the american rhetoric, do they actually want to be there's what i'm saying? they don't, i'm in the best uh, you know, they, the similarity between the ukraine off live down the middle east on the conflict. is that in both cases, united states is trying to, for a long day to jump on it. instead of building piece brian of the conflicts themselves are instruments for the united states to continue. it's gives you more forces right by defeating the birth of it. so in the middle east they tried to weaken and defeat your arm in the ukraine. they tried to weaken a defeat process and so on and so forth. so it's not about the deal is about the americans hegemony. right? uh, this as far as point. second point of course, uh, the escalation in the middle east is a bad news for you green because the, the, the, the global and wisdom media is distract. the political intention is distractive just

little what's going on in the american congress won't just do it because the representatives, but even the republican senators, they've been traditionally more friendly because of you, you claim are claiming that in the context of the escalation of the middle east there's no way, well, they're not as states to sustain the previous month because of that that's available to be able to support the career critical issue. but uh for us to discuss because i know that a couple of months ago, you predicted that the, you more predicting that the united states uh would be increasing that military support, the visit landscape, government in quantitative and qualitative terms. uh, it seems like uh you are changing your opinion on that. i mean is it. 5 ultimately sustainable, especially not only in the views of israel's plans, but within the prospect of a major regional conflict, they assure the united states may need that the weapons, those weapons squared south very thing that i was absolutely right because i was

making those predictions in the context of the beginning of ukrainian calendar offensive towards the sea of us. all right, it was just the initial stages of, of course, the west was going to use this to helping ukraine in the full scale way to make this confidence compet, offensive effective. so the, the west was really increasing, it's really felt through your grading quantities of weight and what are the delay over the last several months? including of course, the provision of cluster balls of at tech comes a long range, ballistic missiles, the promise to deliver essex, do you apply? there's b and so on and so forth. so it was really the case, but now the situation changed, right? the major difference why i have, i'm not changing my opinion of this race on change. a the cranium called but offensive failed every while it recognizes the secondly user ele, uh,

is it more vital and emailed them to priority before the uh, for the united states. so uh, thinking together of course the west will reduce the color of the quote that the uh its uh, shelves to you. ready the by the ministration will not provide you green balls, but i think we should forget about any prospect of another major degree. i'm calling profess as next year. at least right here in can i ask you something very quick because we have running out of time, but i think this is a coastal problem you've been riding along the the, one of the major reasons for confrontation of is the rush on the western side is what it are, western attempts to, uh, st, rushed off with great power status and re power means being able to influence events practically, on the ground, diplomatically, economically. sometimes, militarily, do you think they may ever come a point when the united states would not supply those russian abilities to

influence the balance, but actually try to benefit from them either in the ukraine or let's say in the context of the middle east. because russia does have a lot of capacity for settling disputes in a fair and balanced way. well, the z idealistic image that you have created requires a fundamental change of the major barometer. so the us for an ball is the most and see that in the making in the observable future. i think that during the next 1015 maybe 20 years, the united states will be still obsessed with the great power struggle. struggling russia and struggling china will be focused on uh, you know, uh, preservation of american primacy. and he gemini, in the world, even in the absence of it's a huge you, i'm gonna, of the even, you know, despite

a certain generational change of, despite the change of the moon and model republicans, i'm, the left is the liberal democrats, the us foreign policy is still monopolized by the deep state and the traditional establishment which are committed to the boss, cold war paradigm of the us global leadership. so much more internal and external crisis. unfortunately, we won't be required that for the united states to reject this policy will come from being a russia they will continue the hybrid war against bratia and systemic confrontational bonuses. unfortunately, you off the, there is a ceasefire or resolution of the conflict in the ukraine. they will continue sanctions, they will continue to demonize ational process. unfortunately, i do not see any indication of any c and uh, for

a change of american for in bullets are these are beautiful shirts to the door. some improvement in the, in the observable prospect, even the longer term prospect. and even when the united states finally accepts the yellow, it is a multi polarity and starts to play a role of one among many. this change will certainly become inevitable. well, let me try and find it a very black or rather pessimistic picture. i would the use the israel's, a recent problems as a glory, but to some extent inspiring example. because reality still has its ways of, of imposing himself onto perceptions. and if that happened to is around maybe that will also happen to the united states, although i hope in the less blood the way we, we have to leave it there. but it's been a great pleasure, as always, for me to talk to thank you very much. for your insights, thank you. it's on the oldest list. thank you for watching hope to see her again.

kind of was a part of the the,

[000:00:00;00] the explosions rock of history like stands. it's broad and operations. i'm intensified it's bombing campaign. also out of the program, us depaula city and death to report to the top 10000 people. johnsons are struggling to support and find their loved ones, and that the devastating consequences of the company was dental the announce from the radio. the old phone and internet services had been cut off. we became detached from the world. the shelving happened in the camp and people rushed to collect their children. the 1st arrivals to the hospital informed that all phone and