was to mention will 5 is it is on the offensive in a city the u. k. and a city, a big crowd pay miles and support of the palestinian people. by those readings, isabel's will climes and gaza and freedom from palestine from the display. the issue of the palestine is not only the issue of the people of defense and not the only issue of the people of the average. you have countries. this is the issue of all most since it's a genocide, there's a lot of kids being killed completely innocent. we've been terrorized, we've been victimize, and it's now a time for us to send people this riley series is a normalized across the wells and we must all send we messed up for the rest of the month, so much on every attire, some of every office. so just, you know, just use a sort of support and get our government here to actually go into a ceasefire. the most urgent thing is to ask you would be in governments to intervene to stop the genocide and go to that because

a genocide is underway. while we're talking about terrorism on her mazda side, i wonder you have called from aust terrace. but what about israel? they have occupied a state and of always murdered. well, that is also, this is our, the you like to news in english, arabic, spanish, german, french. we what you covered, as always is great to have your company who are not the, i'm was, i'm on the

wall from 12 to part until a few weeks ago, the conflict in ukraine was treated in western media as a major threat to their rules based order and one that is most likely to decide the outcome of a battle between the forces of democratic booth and alter project eagle. the reduction of violence in the middle east has manifested a totally new order of brutality which has made it so much more difficult, even for the self assurance west to take sides or both for an easy solutions. what does this process mean for the international system? to discuss that, i'm now joined by demetrius, so slow deputy and director of the center for comprehensive, your opinion and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow . demetrius good to see you again. thank you very much for your time. hello. i saw the nice to meet you, nice to see you or was pleasure. thank you. now, let me 1st ask, you know, there's a schooler but is a colleague of mine as

a media professional and for our audience, i want to mention that demetrius also hosting a geo political show called great game on one of russia's biggest channels. and i think is media professionals we have just with us, the major change in the and how will the media currents flow because of the reality and gas it was so unexpected. and so shocking that i think we caught many western media on guard, then they were put into situation when they actually have to report on death reality, rather than trying to preemptively shape it or frame it. so in that case, very rare case, reality seems to be trumping perceptions. what does it mean in terms of the global uh, informational war? because when they realize it or not their, their reason battle of narrative is going on? well like a sudden, i think this is

a very significant developments in the west on me do and several science 1st of course the west, the media, it was called of god. because we all remember us 3 weeks ago. jake's all of them, the national security advisor, united states, tried to convince everyone that the middle east was the most peaceful position within decades right on the west of media seemed to believe that they deliberately tried to ignore the question of these available is the new conflict and we'll just kind of be off the brackets thing with forget about it and focus on different things. second point i think that was going on in gaza now is the putting the west, the media in a very awkward position. and the west is basically losing the global information more because israel unquestionably is a part of the bustle of the west. but today, often experiencing this. busy looking at back there was that back israel in it's

term is conducting it. also, it is of such a scale that you can't really present that support shape the narrative of a justified abrupt. busy and the use of force and justify self defense. you, you can't do it. and this really votes the media in the report with position. uh they have to report on what's going on. instead of trying to shape the narrative of israel being all the good side of history, i wonder how do you understand the math in the apples government seeming resolved to take guys and by force because for all hughes fiber and rhetoric, benjamin netanyahu is known as a highly calculating politicians, you cannot be ignorant of all the possible repercussions of such a move military civilian economic international. and by proceeding with a military operation is a wouldn't be destroying the very status for the itself. how to create and maintain

why take such as future risk as well. uh 1st i, i think, you know, the whole needs is uh, 2 bro. lowercase political existence. you know, because people are where they ask questions, how it all would happen. people both of the blame on the a by the way them, his government personally cleaning quite right. lit up that's uh certain. ready in the gaithersburg, the goals at the level of political leadership, and they actually made this situation possible. so they be, are the political responsibilities in order to avoid paying the price for. busy that i think me about an yeah. who wants to the sold the car on the golf live in a bigger conflict. which key is now trying to deliberately create the bigger conflict, i think is a conflict with bureau and what we are seeing. and i think this is of

a madison phones news that yahoo is trying to do to shift the narrative for the, you know, completely see the narrative claiming that what is going on has nothing to do with the goal is the name is really on. think percent, the real reason before uh the uh for the crisis is your app. but yeah, the, i mean, you're good. there's something because i think this is a very interesting analysis of the assignments done. having a warrant with around which is still a state actor. therefore, it's far more responsible and in some ways more predictable. what suit israel's current institution? because of the one hand you don't have to invade gaza as they have been suggesting or have been talking about. but on the other hand, it essentially, it allows them to have a more, but the sort of an easier way is that what you're suggesting? well, it's not necessarily easy. it was a certainly, it'd be go more of

a war on several fronts because it would definitely involve kids belie and the level. well, in general, it was also editable. it seems to be involved in the united states and i say it on your post calculus is that if there is such a such an escalation of the war from just if you're a local conflict in gaza to a broader. busy mostly at least with. busy being around young brooks's and at the maximum with itself, the united states would have to engage. and that would, you know, completely switch beverly was attention for all. why actually because the back from the gym is a proxy more, but a proxy word that will be. so hot out sport rather than by israel, by the united states. it's the same thing. but shifting the, the burden onto the bigger actor, you have uh, with the help of the united states meet the whole cold to prevail in this brought

a conflict with your um, you know, eventually a term uh, you know, turn out as and when there is ground uh, consolidation against, you know, a moke meaning they just talk to them over on the floors bus, you know, reducing the uranium outrage of the implants. busy the neighboring regions. ready neighboring regions for uh, for israel envelope i think it is very significant because easily mail is long positioned. your um mobile is damian's. most ada spots iran as the major as a special for, for itself. so the bailing. busy with this, like the spanish little thread was making it the whole yeah, we are, you know, one of the biggest winters in the is the regular history instead of a loser, because of domestic political struggles and frictions actually made this, that best buy from us possible. i think these explain skills got on behaviors and

don't want to ask her about the is rarely posting and problem which exists for so many daycare. so that i think we all have become somewhat detached and desensitize to what is actually happening on the ground. and what is happening on the ground is it is essentially a huge human pressure cooker and in gaza, that's been generating range and resistance for 3 generations and perhaps want we'll continue to do so for me anymore. and it's like a real live laboratory for training humans into human blogs because this is what people become when they're denied some semblance of dignified life. for way too long, can you even think about possible ways of defusing these mixer for co, explosive device made of millions of human souls? well, i think the oldest way to refuse this problem is degree to release the state. uh,

to uh, you know, a change completely, the policies we've been conducting with, by israel, we, they sell the united states. so they should have been deliberately trying actually do this, solve this problem. you know, by, by the settlement flawlessly, by the eyes, elation ball, let's say, uh by 20 people is the name. you should be all the brackets by focusing. busy your on by focusing on these really solve the problem mam. uh, over the recent uh months, you know, i know this made this explosion, really possible and editable. so if you do be, if you have to create palistine and stay cool and bullets the know state forest. secondly, you have to guarantee it's existence from the security perspective. for all the company perspective we have to, you know, do invest into ballast. i'm and bring some build up some real economy uh there with the help of neighboring countries. it is in the bristol because like jordan yeah it

egypt israel itself because after all. ok, now we see that the car back does not really guarantee is really a secure thing. so we got to return to the spirit the awfully agreements of mines in my into for emily jack basically depaula's this uh, the kind of been conducting wrongly off the words, but unfortunately not, but just by israel bought by the united states as well. can i ask you something here? uh, because one of your colleagues for the piano uh said recently the one of the things that this or option of wireless has demonstrated is that a strategy of bonding time and essentially putting a frozen conflict on hold on hold in the hold. so if petering out by itself doesn't seem to work, it seems to be pretty dangerous. and the semblance of control that these rails may have had, has been not just broken. it was broken in

a very humiliating and i totally sadistic way. but from what you've been suggesting about, and it's a now clause attempt to move or to shift all the attention to it to ron, it seems like he's still pursuing the same tactics. what can possibly persuade israel to change its time? do you think that americans want to be taking for arrive here by israel? well 1st of course you have to come bell and convinced these railey leads and society of israel as well. you know, to focus on palestine instead of iraq to be difficult. right? because israel hasn't been convinced itself of your on most of the bull is being, it's being used as a special threat and the real and the real a danger. how to do it? well, i think that the world has changed a significant place since my engine settled is even a 19 myers. and the major change is the emergence of the world. majority of it,

as a subject of international affairs says something that does cares. huge agency or m, i are, you know, causes lifestyle. do you have any idea of the age of a target? no longer just the objects of great power confrontation, they are the subjects. they are the actors and they can create a new reality together with these were right. uh and uh, i think it, we just are the dimensional community of the world majority. it simply needs to convince israel that it is impossible for uh, easily able to continue. uh, you know, the existing bullets this as a, as it was, it was more bring secure to say, you know, the united states as last the, the kind of the united states that was in my engine light is extra with the interest and let, let me, i'm sorry for interrupting you over time, but let me stop your desk here because this is

a very important question. the role of the americans in these, this whole configuration. let's address it after a very, very short break. we will be back. stay tuned. the welcome back to was of course with the make sure so slim deputy director of based center for comprehensive if you're a fan and international studies at the higher school of economics and must go meter . and just before the break, we were talking about the, the whole new world, the main emerging, the global majority, that the needs to put pressure on israel. and of course, it's impossible to have this conversation without mentioning the americans who have

always assumed the role of a chaperone of these really probably, stan, i'm call safe and i wonder, uh oh, rather let me repeat the 2nd part of my previous question. that is, do you think the americans want to be used by israel is as the big proxy with big guns with lots of influence juicing. they want to be utilized in such a way that they usually utilize other countries. look, uh, the united states. i think it is our use of put themselves in the very difficult position 1st they uh buy them, administration tries to build bridges with the world majority. i think the great and conflict that showed very explicitly of that the global majority is most at the side of the united states. the us is losing global in for us. and they tried to reverse it, white accommodating major countries in the global majority of the, including solve their area which they do not. once you know further

a partnership with the, with china and dicing that actually one of the major reasons why the us for promoting this solid is really repre swung, is to try to at least limits the solid bottom if it was driving. so the states needs global majority. there's as far as point, but the other hand, uh easily, oh, is it possible american domestic politics, not just the of the us for as well as a bunch of the american domestic politics. these really question is, all you do was the last, you know, it is very difficult for the united states. you know, they try to most to, and the nice israel on the why don't you know, they come to for doing that because of the domestic. ready critical factors, but they caused the 4th for the can, i say, so of the global majority of the same, but right, and uh, if the, the, what does it mean?

it means that the united states, per se, can no longer monopolized the is available is the no question they tried, they failed, they can no longer continue as in the, let's talk about monopolizing. because i mean, i think this in this case, provides a very important listen, was test for leadership. and by leadership, i mean not just the rhetorical statements of support of contamination, but the actual difficult, painstaking work of why diplomacy, uh, negotiating skills, etc. and it doesn't seem like the united states possesses any of that. i mean, now the situation is actually calling for a bold, responsible leadership on the look at the, the track record, the floating in the united nations security council that they, they don't seem to be able to do anything. and, you know, like, and my question here is actually, uh, is this is this situation uh, demonstrating that the united states, even if it wants to be a leader. i mean,

it can be a leader in a stations when you know if the participation is not necessary, but when it is calling for it, they don't seem to possess even the skills of approaching it as well. absolutely, absolutely. the, you know, by the continues to say the united states calls the world together. i think the reality is just the quarter. i think that's in the middle east. the original powers, the global majority, or the world much or the gold cap. and once the cap kept the situation together or avoiding escalation, whereas the united states is the reason for these to be licensed agent. and now we see just the questionable proof of that in the case of the escalation in uh, in the uh, in the middle east. uh so indeed, the united states cannot provide the necessarily, the should be course,

it is focused on other priorities because the priorities of the united states is struggling in china and struggling in gangs process and keeping the middle east. either way that it cannot be title dominated by china or by russia. so the view of the situation from the perspective of great baldwin, competition, not from the perspective of originals to go to that. and also from the perspective of day domestic bolts, you know, combined the united states cannot be a fair and effective mediator. so you have to add to it creates the participation of the world much your, that comprising of both global actors like russia, china, maybe brazil, you know, the brakes uh as a cool in the regional player. so of course including israel, but. busy also including your on in the air of a major companies, i as the it as a,

is the utilization of collective literacy. so most americans during the level one but collective literature by the world majority, i think, is necessary to resolve this prizes now. now, uh let, let's bring our discussion a little bit closer to home because of where the last 2 or 3 years we've all been following the confrontation in an over ukraine between russia and the collective west. and i've heard many on our list, including yourself, said that the next world order, the new composition of the international system will be based on the outcome of done by the battle. i wonder if what's happening in the middle east can change the prediction. do you see any implications all for this latest interruption of violence and the focus of international attack, attention on it for the ukrainian from? well, i think that's the middle eastern conflict is also

a very clear indicator of the failure of the west to build new sustainable international order. right? the west, the united states has tried and failed and now it is impossible to bring sustainable stability into the middle east. or the, oh, i mean, we've all been assuming that it's the ultimate goal to create peace on the, you know, sustainable development. but uh, on the read too much buying into the american rhetoric. do they actually want to be that's what i'm saying. they don't, i mean, as you know, they've been similarity between the ukraine conflict down the middle east on the conflict is that in both cases, united states is trying to for a long day to jump on it. instead of building piece brian of the conflicts themselves are instruments for the united states to continue. it gives you more like bullets right, by defeating the birth of it. so the needle is they tried to weaken and defeated

the wrong in the ukraine. they tried to weaken the defeat process and so on and so forth. so it's not about the bill of it's about the americans, the german, right. this as far as point. second point, of course, uh, the escalation in the middle east is a bad news for you. green decor is the, the, the, the goal of wisdom media is distract the political invention is distracted. just what was going on in the american congress won't just do it because the representatives, but even the republican senators, they've been traditionally more friendly because of you, you claim claiming those in the context of the escalation of the middle east, there's no way. well then i'd state to sustain the previous model because of the status of the what the career critical issue for us to discuss. because i know that a couple of months ago, you predicted that the, the, you more per and explained that the united states uh would be increasing that military. so for the visit landscape,

government in quantitative and qualitative terms. uh, it seems like uh you are changing your opinion on that. i mean, is it uh, ultimately sustainable, especially not only in the views of israel's plans, but within the prospect of a major regional conflict. they assure the united states many need that the weapons, those weapons squared south. oh, i think that i was absolutely right because i was making those predictions in the context of the beginning of ukrainian culture offensive towards the sea or us. all right. it was just the initial stages of, of course, the west was going to be is to helping ukraine in the full scale way to make this comp, if i call that offensive affective. so the, the west was really increasing. it's me, elizabeth felt to your grand quantities of weight as well as the delay over the last several months, including of course, the provision of cluster balls of at tech comes a long range, ballistic missiles,

the promise to deliver at 16 fly thursday, and so on. and so forth. so it was really the case, but now this ration changed, right? the major difference why i have, i'm not changing my opinion of this race on change. a, the cranium called on offensive failed every while it recognizes that. secondly, easily ele, uh, is more vital and emailed them to priority for the uh, for the united states. so uh they can together of course the west will reduce the one that they have the quote that they all, it's uh, shelves to you, great. the by the ministration will more variety of green balls. but i think we should forget about a prospect of another major degree. i'm calling profess of next year at least. roger, can i ask something very quick because we have running out of time, but i think this is a coastal problem. you've been riding along the, the,

one of the major reasons for confrontation of this russian. the western side is what it are. western attempts to, uh, st, rushed off with great power status and re power means being able to influence events practically, on the ground, diplomatically, economically. sometimes, militarily, do you think they may ever come a point when the united states would not supply those russian abilities to influence the balance, but actually try to benefit from them either in ukraine or let's say in the context of the middle east. because russia does have a lot of capacity for settling disputes in a fair and balanced way. well, the idea of list, the image that you have created requires a fundamental change of the major problem it there. so the us for in both sides of all to see that in the making in the observable future. i think that uh, during the next 1015 maybe 20 years. uh,

the united states will be still obsessed with the great power struggle. struggling russia and struggling china will be focused on uh, you know, uh, preservation of american primacy and uh, she gemini, in the world, even in the absence of it's, uh, she g, i'm gonna of the even, you know, despite the southern generational change of despite the change of the moon and model republicans, i'm the left is the liberal democrats, the us foreign policy is still monopolized by the deep state and the traditional establishment which are committed to the post cold war paradigm of the us global leadership. so much more internal and external crisis. unfortunately, we won't be required and for the united states to reject this policy or confronting

a roster of they will continue the cartridge war against russia. and systemic consolidation of bullets is unfortunately even after there is a ceasefire or resolution of the conflict in the ukraine. they will continue sanctions. they will continue to demonize ational process. unfortunately, i do not see any indication of any c and uh, for a change over american foreign policy. these are the last uh, uh to the uh, toward some improvement in the, uh, in the observable uh, prospect, even the longer term prospect. and even when the united states finally accepts the yellow, it is a multi letter of it and starts to play a role of one. among many. this change will certainly become inevitable elementary and praying to the very black or rather pessimistic picture. i would use the israel's, the recent problems as a glory, but to some extent inspiring example,

because reality still has its ways of imposing himself onto perceptions. and if that happened to is around maybe that will also happen to the united states. although i hope in the less blood the way we, we have to leave in there, but it's been a great pleasure, as always for me to talk to thank you very much for your insights. thank you. it's on the oldest list. thank you for watching hope to hear again, honey was a part of the, [000:00:00;00] the,

the, the, [000:00:00;00] the explosions once again, rob gauze as it is what makes sense. it's ground operations and intensive biases, booming campaign of the policy. and the polls are the top 10000 people. the risk continues to find anyone buried under the rubble of the many distorted building and run into the town. how soon, how must meet with is really prime minister. the money more is done to rescue. they loved