[000:00:00;00] the the match sooner than soon welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world from a west asia transformed by war on gaza. they to a nation circle mainstream media might make using violence in palestine again 23 days ago in october, the 7th. but the alleged genocide is repeated since the 1947. you in general assembly vote to create a jewish sector in palestine. fake news used by the powerful to go to war in the middle east. as a specialty of british historian salons friedman, he was on the u. k. public inquiry exposing secrets that led to the native nation

war on the rock. so lawrence friedman emeritus professor was studies a king's college london, author of come on to the politics of military operations from korea to ukraine, joins me from the british capital. thank you so much, sir. so lawrence for coming on. i did mention that that it goes to the future release. don't invite tony blay, you wrote the help right is in from is 1999 speech in chicago on the dr. and the international community. i mean, i go to ask you 1st your take on what you and secretary general and during your gutierrez schools, play a violations of international law by you, and he's re local, supported by britain, the united states, european union nations. i should say britain did abstain with russia on one resolution on gaza. what was the view and actually general actually condemn both sides for violations of international law. not just as true. and it did so because

our places weapons rockets, but as far into israel in the middle of stability in areas which is real crime. so no, no side comes up with a fairly well. well is really majorly sad that he has to resign is really a massive is a well, he's not going to his on israel is for the i'm not a spokesman for these really. no, no, i just wonder what your view was off the fact that you in security council of secretary, you're the un secretary general, the said this and i should yeah, sure that israel so that immediately he should resign, which i never heard of a so i just don't believe he's not going to resign and, and he's got a job to do balancing lots of different views and perspective source, i think is the israel is very sensitive to the, the fact that it feels it was the aggrieved case. and to hear that whenever there is a sort of a distance between the aggressor and the aggrieved. now you will get this sort of

response. obviously, you remember a time. i mean, you've been observing this for decades, where a country is not only said a, you and zachary generalized to resign, but that they will no longer allow any un personnel, visas to enter that country. often, there have actually been instances where people go for the cost of the you and the secretary general gutierrez, is actually quite an outspoken secretary general. many of them keep a much lower profile. these be more outspoken on russia, ukraine, but of the secretary general's mind to be the rest. you ask them particularly like that. so he can use out to him for i think these ready to reaction is over done and i suspect will resolve for this. eventually, i mean, i suppose what i'm getting at is it, it took you 7 years for you and your fellow privy council is to report that britain in the united states, it undermined the authority of the un security council in what you judged as the unnecessary iraq war of killed wound you don't displays tens of millions in the

region. i mean, k, i just, after a few weeks, they're doing the same thing all over again. but in fan is going to abstain with russia. right, as one resolution, as i said, but the united states repeatedly rejecting say the brazilian resolution for these for not one thing and sees firewall all around the world. we see the pictures of thousands of children being killed each you could ask why the ones the size between syria, you can ask for the rooms, the size in the, in your ear man. when these was around the way one cy, favorite to cease fire, another one doesn't fit. i know i didn't realize it. so you're saying the united states is a belligerent personally. i it because this is not an unusual situation. it's, it's why you know, getting c star between russia and ukraine as far as israel is concerned. and again, i'm not speaking for israel. good day. you might as well know that to you as far as israel is concerned,

if you come us launched an attack on israel, which killed brooklyn killed large numbers of civilians while commodities in charge of causes. i fear it will happen again. so we are trying to remove them if they have a c star that will incompetence to sleep. i don't think what by doing is going to see from us removed a i'm not going to have to look for other methods of changing the objective. but that's why they're not accepting a seesaw and carried the issue with this problem. it is whether we can find a way to reduce an outcome that is good for the post. indeed, still good for how must necessarily be good for the palestinians and produces stability while there has been constant instability for many decades. but so you still think this might what the secretary general sad about informs me that those attacks that you're referring to did not occur in

a vacuum. something i'm sure most people would agree with you. you would say the israel as sets up by britain is, i mean, is it a tenable state? it has just been acting in the region for so many years. i mean, i know there was normalization tool, so ideas and the most states in the region now accept the existence of the states of this ravish cannibal 9000000 people. little hamas miles kind of does because it once the 1967, the board is the pro, i mean the didn't. let's go back to this after the general statement. the difficulty. um, it seems to be obvious. the old conflicts have a history. very careful have a context and this one which is opposite patches context only in this case it emerges out of the belief events that are in yahoo government. but they should put charter in the west bank in the belief that actually they have some sort of understanding with her boss,

which is why they were taken so much bye. so by surprise. so there's the question of the need to figure the history of this part of the world, which goes back well before the battlefield declaration is, was constant tension and conflict between a underscore seduce, essentially in israel. long before 1947, a to the goes back a long time. so then all going away. this is how the question is under what conditions does is ro continued to exist. and as it has been up to now fries the economy and society without the same time making life miserable and depressing for the published a new population. yeah. now i'm feeling known as hang any of them should go go home . as i said, i'm us. recognize 1967 as a match the most is the semester said very different things towards the majority and suggest. okay and what it,

what it stands is rejection est uh the 1.2 did accept it took about the 967 bound. krista is basic stances rejection as we suited. that's and yeah, this was so sad to tragic about this sort of thing, but you have the hotline or so on both sides feeding off each other. yeah, because you suggested a medium term solution of boosting the palestinian authority. i know you did recognize the problem. so maybe you explain the problems you recognize in that, because don't they just have a cleaning for democratic legitimacy? how may i ask, who's elected be a, was elective of the elections or years ago? yeah, i think the total is the democratic legitimacy reasons we understand the power steering the 40 does not have a good reputation. it's uh, i bosses a cloud now. uh, this is being corrupt. it has to be particularly effective and it's been

consistently undermined by the, by the israeli government. so it hasn't got a great time. i think most people looking at that solutions now, which is what i think is most useful to know of talking about the protestant, of all sort of the plus uh you, you need the other arab states in the region closely involved. i think in some trying to work out what you do about the developing legitimacy of this tactic governance in garza and we because this is in the west pockets of territorial issue code for cabinetry. that's not the issue with the gaza strip. it's about the conditions in which the trade and people can move in and out of control, in which case it is not possible at this moment. so i think the, if you're looking for the future,

you're going to be looking for the policy in all sovereignty. but with a much bigger, wider, are open, international engagement just seems to be because of the resources are going to be necessary to go to put the go straight back on his feet. and is that without the united states? because obviously nothing. we're watching of the horrors inflicted on guys that could be happening without the arming of israel by the united states, by britain in european union nations. this one is riley general being quoted in his riley pressing. you know, whenever we do, we take our owners defacto. now, as to what's happening from what actually if you look at what she was saying, when he said that what he was saying, what they just remind us what he said, because the americans of asked us to make sure that we were to get the humanitarian relief into drugs, and that's what he was saying instead of the american self, an illness influence on his real good. anybody who's watched the history of us

israel relations and us policy. and us attempts to engage in the region knows the, the, the ability of, of the united states to get any, is ready to give them to do exactly what it wants. it's pretty limited because some save as growing, feeling within israel. obviously there's a huge of the opposition before october, 7th to netanyahu, who feel actually, what the united states has done over all these decades is used israel as a proxy there in the middle east. and the north allowed israel to be created as a, as a normal stage in the region, making alliances and links to regional higher powers. it's being used in the region now, and i'll send it has to be making links. we lose a large number of our countries in the uh, i'm just about to do so we would start with the right. they don't see enough space on used as proxies in this, where they're all their own. have agency,

everybody's got agency in the world of this. nobody's as a acting just as somebody else has the has israel of a went through a period in the early ninety's of going to period in the, in the sixty's toilet when it was possible to imagine a different sort of israel. so to, to, to the one that developed the different sorts of photos they have, the also process as well as those of us who remember what happened to the also prosystems as it was going on from us as regularly mounting the taxi. so in, within the israel to the relevant process we actually, we spoke to the home or is there any foreign minister and the on the previous going home to grow? who said the also was the echoed swear of failure and he then became chief negotiator position of a man, i mean, but without getting to into the, the information about all those different, failed the piece processes. let's just get to w,

m d. i mean in the rock and choir you slammed am i 6 blaming it for a rock w m d claims? israel has w m the, and i'm not the image chemical weapons of course. uh then it'd be in use white phosphorus. uh is that, but uh, of course, nuclear weapons. how can, how, how does the current, uh, sort of, uh, uh, in the context of his rare letting nuclear weapons change things. there was in the initial, often massive october 7th. it was talk about how about us capturing over or getting to demona and be very surprised. we go to the moment and i, or israel is being done, declared usually a pos, a number of decades. now it's a, it's was an employee. it has to be an important factor as

a reminder of why we're in that region of the when to move between states around in israel, for example, would be potentially very catastrophic. it was raised as a potential issue during the 1973 war and actually seen it raised to something that could be used as well as any particular relevance to this case. so learns friedman, i'll stop you the more from the merits, as professor was studies and king scholars london, known as the dean of bridget strategic studies after this break. the nice thing about an yahoo soul. the economy blue is big with which t v is now trying to deliberately create the pico calls list, i think is

a conflict with your yahoo. if it's the right to do to see them there, you know, we police keep the narrative claiming that what is going on because nothing to do with the goal is the name is really big percent. the real reason for the, for the crisis is the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the americas professor more studies at kings college, london, the rock enquiries, sir laurence friedman. so on. so we were just talking about wind. many people don't really talk about, or israel is nuclear weapons program. obviously they deny they have one. it's not subject to the m p t. why do you think it is? but no one talks about it because surely that wasn't the code. i never heard, we did not have a house on this. the,

the official line is we won't be the 1st to introduce new to where for instance, at least probably won't be the 2nd. i mean, it's with a, uh, the installer replied, usually a power dies never had a new key attached to. so there was some questions about and events in south africa or the late seventy's, but there's never, there's never been a decline new t test. it's not a good plan. um, it's probably some people to issue. it's a new power because it gets to determine benefit from that. but it doesn't have the consequences as actually declaring that it's live out there for many decades now. yeah, the library in the house of commons in london, i'm would sure um they just h as in britain rely on for information to legislate clearly says it to be a universally accepted. they have nuclear weapons. it isn't an important event. but if a, if indeed, resistance fighters did capture demona in any way that would make it very relevant

. indeed, if somebody got to demona that they get to a nuclear reactor and, and some of them produces fissionable material and we can get to the weapons. and i find it very hard to believe that they would get out so they might strike it in the, the, the iraqis tried to strike it with sketch store. and the 1991 doesn't store the that's a different uh, i should different issue. i mean, i don't think it's, it's, it's one of the main scenarios to worry about at the moment is paying that china and russia and down degree with britain and france and the united states of un security council. i mean, the war in ukraine. decent believe the bass is clearly stopped to moscow. hosting any p. storks after all, they have friendship with both israel and the palestinians. is that why we haven't seen the talks opened up in uh in moscow? yes,

i think it's probably the case if we haven't got the full scale invasion of ukraine . russia, would it be much more involved at the moment in the diplomacy? it does have relations with iran, which of course intensified because it run is now supplying russia with weapons for its war. and that's a yahoo and, and put it up as a good relationship based mode quite regularly. and they work together to to sort of stay and keep a party conflict relationship over syria. probably not. the relationship is become a bit more intense because air rushes lead more to it around the obviously it has to to as well. but i think this limits the role of rush. you can play the moment china's gate is made. so it was an even handed statement, but i don't think secret clicked. he wants to get involved in this conflict. china is definitely down the

a sore throat and gaza in no one said moody. it's church. china is not playing a big role in this conflict. i. you use your language, but it's not a it's, it's a, it's not going to support the west because it doesn't support the west on very much . but it's just not something that he wants to get involved in. the just got enough on his plan. i know there were those reports of course, of that warships coming into the middle east, but apparently that was a routine deployment. but of course, it was china that broke the deal between iran and saudi arabia and to saudi arabia, of course, cuts off normalization talks and is being very critical of a u. k u s. c, u actually actually if you look at the readout between them, a precedent box and then the crown prince, it was really quite interesting and quite moderate in, in,

um the white house version in the times of is around maybe, oh you perhaps you can tell me this a different side of the version, but the, um, uh, i don't think savvy ray who is delighted as or from us did he was taught was katy directed against saudi foreign policy to a degree because they didn't like the normalization towards the saudis. i'm the americans, i think patching up would it be that pretty poor relationship. and saudi is still very concerned about the rain you influence in the region to get it looked like with a wrench with, with, with china thing some marginal but in the end talk trivial. role in helping to the to get together that the, the have lead to less than you do that by too much and or not. and i think actually, i mean personally, i think the saudi roll over the next

a couple of weeks in the constructive sense may may be quite important. i'd be, i'd be looking as to the bikes and is it re out as a country to comply very important parts of the diplomacy? judging by the horror at the un security council in, in new york, as people discussed what israel are doing to the heart of the masters, which you know, which you keep from feeling i'm, i'm, i'm not saying it. i'm just like, it's still happening a lot. let me say things to happen in the back. you may have that they also is a response to some, quite to pulling up by some muscle is you know, most countries as managed to be a, to, to express that concern in both sets of suffering. not just one. yeah, no, i mean i'm just talking about the situation. i'm surprised. i mean, as you know, there, the palestinians consider that there are thousands of hostages of palestinian hostages

. kept for decades, him behind bars in uh, in israel. i think that what i mean is that, of course, while the old countries have condemned the taking of hostages by uh, resistance movements, i come us on october 7th. they also showed hora as i'm sure who we will feel when we see the pictures. i don't know if this sense it in britain, i know britain sense is a lot of journalism and the bbc apparently suspended some journalist. but certainly here in this region, the vast majority of people are seeing the horrors of what's coming out. but, but you are an expert on war and i'm wondering whether people are looking at what the russians did in the ukraine, had not flattening keyah for instance. uh versus, uh, what israel does to gaza, what the united states and britain did to baghdad. you actually look to what russian did to marion pulled together. i'm talking about the causing thousands and

thousands of civilian casualties. systematic attacks, so on ukrainian infrastructure, the, the cussing offered because of the electricity and water. if israel has given them the amount of warnings, israel, a drug test, i really wanted to just kill civilians. i shared an awful lot more. would it be children of already being killed by trying to attack targets, but attacking targets instability, americans about lead store goes on. i. e, go again. you can go next. but on boy is obviously a besieged cherry tree with off of the $2300000.00 heart children. and i mean obviously if you drop that man, he bones on an open area to use it proportionately, you know, you believe it's published proportionate if you were deliberately. this is rose deliberately to just to kill civilians. and that was the only objective of the end of this and a lot more with this guy. the problem is, as you say, the if your mounting moved,

feel patients of any suit in the territory in which large numbers of civilians live . i'm not as the secretary general of the web noted military installations of being placed amongst those civilians. then moscow aggregate. the problem in russia attacked a using symbol of justifications. a civilian there is because they sadly was bought. but we look through the substitute to do so, little russian russian denies are home, see mushrooms was denied that way. but no, i, i'm sorry to bother you, but you think it's good portions? are you really, if it is proportional, it is rarely doing the gaza. proportionality is, is, i mean, the ice age. and i've written this, there is a peach tree. what are the limits? what is ro can achieve by military option? and they've got themselves in the strategic mess. to be honest,

i think raise it propulsion, i don't believe. let me explain the algorithm, sentences october, led them to set it in motion. a number of things which are not the uh, the siege checks me. type them in to cj, as strikes, i'm pulling up large numbers of people for a little feature issue, which hasn't yet happened. proportionality as a legal concept was extraordinarily difficult, but it's not just who's told most people, it's about the concept of military necessity. uh or it just simple in an intention to kill. so it is united, strictly speaking and now you the israel sort of just some people into butcher palestinians in similar ways to go away from us, but should, is riley's it. so it doesn't, it doesn't really help if you want to say,

thought to bring the number to sort of the author lawrence of the numbers that so different. well, anyway, just finally, then, i mean, clearly the united states and it's the you proxies a lost in the enough canis done in iraq in syria. let alone as you write in your book, vietnam allow cambodia so many other places. would iran when the war against the united states, with its allies in the region that alone defective support from the new bricks? countries, young i cooperation, organization, and would the united states in european union countries backing israel, what they lose? no, i don't think they would, but i just, i mean the, the issues with, with a rod that issue, whether it's good for probably depends on the right one doesn't get the impression that most directly into the desperately keen on the idea or i don't know of course no one wants to, i mean the, they would, they look game lose when they just under the united states. the reason that the

united states and they saw lice 5 so badly in iraq and of damage done to the vietnam before docking so serious, it's good because they, they, they tried to impose government, some places where they were welcoming well, the governments didn't have sufficient legitimacy and authority to survive. the reason why russia has so much trouble in your brain is not welcome in you. great. i to the israel was in gaza. it left out because it lacked garza in 2005 because it wasn't welcomed there and it won't be welcome if it tries to go back in that allow. if i have trouble again, that's why you lose what was bought by trying to impose your will on places we to, which are, i don't want you to be there. and, you know, the, you can find examples for many countries where wherever i've just been case,

the major a straightforward regular wolf between iran and his allies, such as bell. i don't think they get married 5, many people rushing to join in the united states and its allies. as long as it was a conventional was no doubt you would with a it would be the west, but i don't see it. yeah, i mean, i think many people will, uh, looking at that based on the record down, i've tried to explain what is the united states has not lost convention, was what is lost as insurgencies. i'm informed very few examples when the americans get beat, when it's just regular forces against regular forces, they get beat because of a very hungry they try to defeat the local indigenous salons. friedman, thank you. and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here and

going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east . we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until end keeping jobs, viral, social media, it's not sensitive annual country. and how do i channel going on the ground tv on rumbled on. com, to watch, new and old episodes of going underground to set the

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