or the the walton 12 a part until a few weeks ago the conflict in ukraine was treated in western media as a major threat to their rules based order. and the one that is most likely to

decide the outcome of a battle between the forces of democratic goods and alter project eagle. the reduction of violence in the middle east has manifested a totally new order of brutality which has made it so much more difficult. even for the self assurance west to take sides or both for an easy solutions. what does this process mean for the international system? to discuss that i'm now joined by demetrius, so slow deputy director of the center for comprehensive, your opinion and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow . demetrius good to see your again. thank you very much for your time. hello. i saw the nice to meet you, nice to see you or was pleasure. thank you. now, let me 1st ask, you know, there's a schooler but is a colleague of mine as a media professional and for our audience, i want to mention that demetrius also, hosting a jo political show called great game on one or for us has biggest channels. and i think is media professionals, we have just witnessed a major change in the,

in how global media currents flow because of the reality and gas it was so unexpected. and so shocking that i think he caught many western media old guard, and they were put into situation when they actually have to report on death reality, rather than that's trying to preemptively shape at the frame. and so in that case, very rare case, reality seems to be something perceptions. what does it mean in terms of the global uh, informational war? because whether we liked it or not, their, their reason battle of narrative is going on. well like a sudden, i think this is a very significant developments in the west, the media and several sites. first of course the west, the media, it was called of god. because we all remember as 3 weeks ago, jake solid on the national security advisor, united states,

tried to convince everyone that the middle east was the most peaceful position within decades, right on the west of media seems to believe that they deliberately, it drives to ignore the question of these vailable is the conflict and we'll just kind of be off the brackets thing with forget about it and focus on different things. second point i think that was going on in gaza now is putting the western media in a very awkward position. and the west is basically losing the global information more because israel unquestionably these are part of bustle of the west. but today, after experiencing this. busy looking at back dead or is that back israel, it's term is conducting it. also it is of such a scale that you can't really present that support shape the narrative of a justified abrupt. busy and the use of force and justified self defense you,

you kind of do it. and this really boats the media, univariate, baldwood position. they step to report on what's going on. instead of trying to shape the narrative of israel being all the good side of history. i wonder how do you understand the math and apples government us me resolved to take god by force because uh for all hughes fiber and rhetoric benjamin netanyahu is known as a highly calculating politician. he cannot be ignorant of all the possible repercussions of such a move military civilian economic international. and by proceeding with a military operation is a wouldn't be destroying the very status for the itself. how to create and maintain why take such as future risk as well. uh 1st i, i think, you know, the whole needs, its, uh, 2 bro, lowercase political existence. you know,

because people are where they ask questions, how it all would happen. people both of the blame on the a by the way and his government personally cleaning quite right, lit up that's uh certain. ready in the gaithersburg, the goals at the level of political leadership, and they actually made this a situation possible. so they be, are the political responsibilities the order to avoid paying the price for. busy that i think me about an yeah. who wants to the sold the car on the golf, living in a bigger goals live. which key is now trying to deliberately create the bigger cause list, i think is a conflict with bureau and what we are seeing. and i think this is of a madison phones news that yahoo is trying to do to shift the narrative to you know, completely see the narrative claiming that what is going on because nothing to do with the goal is the name is really conflict. bruce that the real reason before uh

the uh for the crisis is your app. but yeah, i mean, you're good to hear something because i think this is a very interesting analysis of the assignments done. having a war with around which is still a state actor. therefore, it's far more responsible and in some ways more predictable. what suit israel's current situation because of the one hand you don't have to invade gaza as they have been uh, suggesting or have been talking about. but on the other hand, it essentially, it allows them to have a more but this sort of an easier word is that what you're suggesting? well, it's not necessarily easy. it was a certainly, it'd be go more of a war on several fronts because it would definitely involve kids, bely and the level. well, in general, it was also evident. blake involves the united states and i say it on yahoo calculus is that if there is such

a such an escalation on the wall from just if you're a local costler in gaza to a broader. busy like at least with. busy being around young brooks's and at the maximum with itself, the united states will fail to engage. and that we, you know, completely as we have what it was that that shouldn't, for all. why actually because the back from the gym is a proxy more, but a proxy word that will be so hot out of sport rather than by israel, by the united states. it's the same thing. but shifting the, the burden onto the bigger actor, you have uh, with the help of the united states nathan york, who calls to prevail, give this, brought a conflict when you're on them, eventually a term, a, you know, turn out as and when they're in this ground can foundation against, you know,

remote meaning they just talked about with on the floors but you know, reducing the iranian outrage of the beautiful lands. busy the neighboring regions, neighboring regions for uh, for israel envelope i think it is very significant because easily mail is long positioned either on multiple is dns, not at a spot iran as the major as a special for, for itself. so bailey. busy with these eggs, the special thread will make me the whole. there we are, you know, one of the biggest winters in the history of a history instead of a loser, because of domestic political struggles and frictions actually made this at best buy from us possible. i think these explain skills got on behaviors and don't want to ask her about the israeli posting and problem which exists for so many days that i think we all have become somewhat detached and desensitized to what is actually happening on the ground and what is happening on the ground is it is essentially

a huge human pressure cooker and in gaza, that's been generating range and resistance for 3 generations. and perhaps one will continue to do so for me anymore. and it's like a real life laboratory for training humans into human blogs because this is what people become when they're denied some semblance of dignified life. for way too long, can you even think about possible ways of defusing this mixer for co, explosive device made of millions of human souls? well, i think the oldest way to refuse this problem is degree to release the state. uh, to uh, you know, a change completely, the bullets as we've been conducting with, by an easy way, it will be, they sell the united states. so they should have been deliberately trying actually do this, solve this problem. you know by,

by the settlement all the say by the eyes, the lation ball is that uh by pointing people as the new issue the all the brackets by focusing. busy iran by focusing while the is really solid, the rep for us mom over the recent uh months. you know, i m, this made this explosion, really possible and editable. so if you do be, if you have to create palistine and stay cold and bo this dino state forest, secondly, you have to guarantee its existence from the security perspective. for all the company perspective, you have to, you know, do invest into ballast. i'm and bring some build up some real economy. uh there with the help of neighboring countries. it is in the interest of god was like jordan, it egypt israel himself because after all, ok, now we see the the call back does not really guarantee is really a secure thing. so we got to return to the spirit the awfully agreements of

1994 and reject. basically the policy is uh that kind of been conducting wrongly off the words, but unfortunately not, but just by israel bus by the united states as well. can i ask you something here? uh, because one of your colleagues for the piano uh said recently the one of the things that this or option of wireless has demonstrated is that a strategy of bonding time and essentially putting a frozen conflict on hold on hold in the hold. so if petering out by itself doesn't seem to work, it seems to be pretty dangerous. and the semblance of control that these rails may have had, has been not just broken. it was broken in a very humiliating and i totally sadistic way. but from what you've been suggesting about and it's in the apples attempt to move or to shift all the attention to it to ron, it seems like he's still pursuing the same tactic. what can possibly persuade israel

to change its time guessing that americans want to be taking core arrived here by israel? well 1st of course you have to come bell and convinced these railey leads and society of israel as well. you know, to focus on palestine instead of iraq will be difficult. right? because isabel hasn't been convinced itself of your on most of the bull is being, it's being used as a central threat and the real and the real a danger. how to do it? well, i think that the world has changed a significant play as since 19 7th is even a 9th in miners. and the major change is the emergence of the world majority. it is a subject of international affairs says something that gets huge agency or m i r. you know, customers like solid via the egypt talk is no longer just the objects of great

power confrontation. they are the subjects. they are the actors of. they can create a new reality together with ease were right. uh and uh, i think it, we just are the dimensional community of the world. majority. it simply means to convince israel that it is impossible for uh, easily able to continue. uh, you know, the existing bullets this as a, as it was, it was more bring secure to say, you know, the united states as most of the, the kind of the united states that was in my engine light is extra with the interest and let, let me i'm sorry for interrupting you over time, but let me stop your desk here because this is a very important question. the role of the americans in these, this whole configuration. let's address it after a very, very short break. we're moving back, stay tuned. the

there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the or see if the case for the mess and as of the people i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also a pursuit. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington, as for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals and we're living online. we have very close propaganda. you know, price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions, ask the better. the answer is will be the, the the

welcome back to was a part with the make sure so slim deputy director of the center for comprehensive if you're a fan and international studies at the higher school of economics and must go metering just before the break. we were talking about the, the whole new world demand emerging, the global majority that the needs to put pressure on israel. and of course, it's impossible to have this conversation without mentioning the americans who have always assumed the role of a chaperone of these rarely posting and conflicts. and i wonder, uh oh, rather let me repeat the 2nd part of my previous question. that is, do you think the americans want to be used by israel is as the big proxy with big guns with lots of influence. do you think they want to be utilized in such a way that they usually utilize other countries? look uh the united states. i think it is or is of put themselves in the very

difficult position. first, they are a bite on administration, tries to build bridges with the world majority. i think that you great in conflict and showed very explicitly of that. the global majority is most at the side of the united states, the us as losing global voice, and they try to reverse it, white accommodating majors. countries in the global majority that including solve their area, which they do not want to, you know, further. 1 a partnership with the, with the china and the icing, the actually one of the major reasons why the us for promoting this solid is really rep or as long is to try to at least limits the solid, the bottom if it was driving. so the states needs global majority. there's as far as point, but on the, on the other hand, i easily help or is it part of american domestic politics? not just the of the us for as well as a bunch of the american domestic politics. these really question is of you and you

was, you know, that's, you know, it is very difficult for the united states. you know, they try to most, to take an ice israel on the why don't you know, they called the board doing that because of the domestic. ready vertical vectors, but they kind of defaults to the nice ational of the global, mature, at the same time, right? and uh, in the, what does that mean? it means that the united states, per se, can no longer monopolize the, is available as the new question. they try, they fail, they can no longer continue as the, let's talk about monopolizing because, i mean, i think this in this case, provides a very important listen, was test for leadership. and by leadership, i mean not just the rhetorical statements of support the condemnation, but actual, difficult, painstaking work off why diplomacy, uh, negotiating skills,

etc. and it doesn't seem like the united states possesses any of that. i mean, now decision is actually calling for a bold, responsible leadership. and the look at the, the track record, the floating in the united nations security council. there they, they don't seem to be able to do anything. and, you know, like, and my question here is actually, uh, is, this is the situation of demonstrating that the united states, even if it wants to be a leader. i mean, it can be a leader in a stations when you know if the participation is not necessary, but when it is calling for it, they don't seem to possess even the skills of approaching it as well. absolutely. absolutely. are you know, why didn't the continues to say the united states all the world together? i think the reality is just the quarter. i think that's in the middle east. the original powers, the global majority, or the world much,

or the cap and what's the cap kept the situation together or avoiding escalation. whereas the united states is the reason for these to be licensed agent. and now we see just the questionable proof of that in the case of the escalation in, in the, in the middle east. uh, so indeed, the united states cannot provide the necessary on leadership uh the course. it is focused on other priorities because the priorities of the united states is struggling, gays, china, and struggling against process and keeping the middle east, either way that it cannot be title dominated by china or uh, by russia. so the view of the situation from the perspective of great baldwin competition, most of the perspective of regional students. and also from the perspective of de domestic politics. you know, combined the united states cannot be a fair and effective mediator. so you have to add to it creates the

participation of the world, the majority of it, comprising of both global actors like russia, china, maybe brazil, you know, the brief a as a whole. and the regional players, of course, including israel, but. busy also including your on in the air of a major companies, i as the it as a, isn't useful as ational collective literacy. so most american junior level one but collective literature by the world majority, i think, is necessary to resolve this prizes now. now, uh, let us bring our discussion a little bit closer to home because of where the last 2 or 3 years we have well been following the confrontation in an over ukraine between russia and the collective west. and i've heard many analysis on the list, including yourself, said that the next world order, the new composition of the international system will be based on the outcome of

done by the battle. i wonder if what's happening in the middle east can change the prediction. do you see any implications all for this latest interruption of violence and the focus of international attack, attention on it for the ukrainian from? well, i think that's the needle. eastern conflict is also a very clear indicator of the failure of the west to build new sustainable international order. right? the west, the united states has tried and failed, and now it is impossible to bring sustainable stability into the middle east or the oh, i mean, we've all been assuming that it's the ultimate goal to create peace and the, you know, sustainable development. but uh, on the read too much buying into the american rhetoric, do they actually want to be?

that's what i'm saying. they don't, i mean, as you know they, they similarity between the ukraine off live down the middle east on the conflict is that in both cases, united states is trying to, for a long day to jump on it. instead of building piece right out of the complex themselves are instruments for the united states to continue. it's gives you more like bullets. it's right by defeating the birth of it. so the needle is they tried to weaken and defeated the wrong in the ukraine. they tried to weaken the defeat process and so on and so forth. so it's not about the deal is it's about the americans, the german. right? uh, this as far as point. second point, of course, uh, the escalation in the middle east is a bad news for you green because the, the, the, the global and west, the media is distract. the political intention is distracted just what was going on in the american congress won't just do it because the representatives, but even the republican senators,

they've been traditionally more friendly because of you, you claim are claiming that in the context of the escalation of the middle east there's no way, well then i'd state to sustain the previous model because of that that's the deal. they knew it was what they surveys and the career critical issue for us to discuss . because i know that a couple of months ago, you predicted that the, you more predicting that the united states uh would be increasing that military support, the visit landscape, government in quantitative and qualitative terms. uh, it seems like you are changing your opinion on that. i mean, is it uh, ultimately sustainable especially not only in the views of israel's plans, but within the prospect of a major regional conflict, they assure the united states many need that the weapons, those weapons square itself. i think that i was absolutely right because i was making those predictions in the context of the beginning of ukrainian culture

offensive towards the c o. as all right. it was just the initial stages of, of course, the west was going to be, is this to helping ukraine in the full scale way to make this comp. and if i call that offensive affective so the, the west was really increasing. it's the elizabeth felt to your great and quantitative weight as well as the delay over the last several months, including of course, the provision of cluster balls of attack comes a long range, ballistic missiles, the promise to deliver at 16 uh 5 thursday and so on. and so forth. so it was really the case, but now the situation changed. right? the major difference why i have, i know, changing my opinion of this race on change a, the cranium called on offensive failed every while it recognizes that. secondly, user ele, uh, is more vital and emailed them to buy your, the, for the, uh, for the united states. so uh they can together of course,

the west will reduce the color of the quote that they, uh, its uh, shelves to you. ready the by the ministration will not right. you agree off, but i think we should forget about any prospect of another major degree of called the offense of next year. at least. all right, sir, and can i ask something very quick because we have running out of time, but i think this is a coastal problem. you've been riding along the, the, one of the major reasons for confrontation of this russian. the western side is what it are. western attempts to, uh, st, rushed off with great power status and re power means being able to influence events practically, on the ground, diplomatically, economically. sometimes, militarily, do you think they may ever come a point when the united states would not supply those russian abilities to influence the balance, but actually try to benefit from them either in ukraine or let's say in the context

of the middle east. because russia does have a lot of capacity for settling disputes in a fair and balanced way. well, the idea of listing image that you have created requires a fundamental change of the major barometer. so the us for in baltimore to see that in the making in the observable future. i think that during the next 1015 maybe 20 years, the united states will be still obsessed with the great power struggle. struggling russia and struggling china will be focused on uh, you know, um, preservation of american primacy and he gemini, in the world even in the absence of it's a huge you, i'm gonna, of the, even, you know, despite a certain generational change of despite the change of the moon and model republicans, i'm the left is the liberal democrats,

the us foreign policy is still monopolized by the deep state and the traditional establishment which are committed to the post cold war paradigm of the us global leadership. so much more internal and external crisis. unfortunately, we won't be required and for the united states to reject this policy, or confronting a russia, they will continue the hybrid war against bratia and systemic confrontational bonuses. unfortunately, you opt uh there is a ceasefire or resolution of the conflict in the ukraine. they will continue sanctions, they will continue to demonize, asian overall. so unfortunately, i do not see any indication of any c and uh for a change of american foreign policy. these are the last uh uh to the door. some

improvement in the uh, in the observable prospect in the longer term prospect. and even when the united states finally accepts the yellow, it is a multi polarity and starts to play a role of one. among many. this change will certainly become inevitable elementary airplane to the very black or rather pessimistic picture. i would use the israel's, the recent problems as a glory, but to some extent inspiring example. because reality still has its ways of, of imposing himself onto perceptions. and if that happened to is around maybe that will also happen to the united states, although i hope in the less bloody way we, we have to leave it there. but it's been a great pleasure, as always for me to talk to thank you very much for your insights. thank you. it's on always blessed. thank you for watching hope to hear again. kind of was a part of the

the hi. i'm rick sanchez. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you, i'm comfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again,

it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way inside the hello and welcome across stock. were all things are considered on peter a little because it is back after going dark and being cut off from the world. israel continues to deny god's that everything needed to sustain modern life. in the meantime, the west collectively turns a blind died to the collective punishment palestinians. the discuss these issues.