the match sooners hence, and welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world from a west asia transformed by war on gaza. they do a nation circle, mainstream media. it might make you think violence and palestine again 23 days ago in october. the 7th village of genocide is repeated since the 1947. you in general assembly vote to create a jewish secretary in palestine. fake news used by the powerful to go to war in the middle east as a specialty of british historians, lawrence friedman. he was on the u. k. public inquiry exposing secrets that led to the native nation war on the rock. so lawrence friedman emeritus professor was studies of kings college london also have come on to the politics of military operations from korea to ukraine, joins me from the british capital. i thank you so much sir. so laurence, the coming on, i did mention that, that it goes to the future release. don't invite tony blay, you wrote to help write these instruments. 1999 speech in chicago on the doctrine

of the international community. i mean, i go to ask you 1st your take on want to you and secretary general and during your gutierrez schools, play a violations of international law by and these are a local, supported by britain, the united states, european union nations. i should say britain did abstain with russia on one resolution on gaza. what was the view and century general actually con them both sides to violations of international law? not just as true. and it did so because cross places, weapons rockets, but as far into israel in the middle of stability in areas which is real crime. so no side comes out particularly well. well is really majorly sad that he has to resign is really a massive is a well, he's not going to use our nitro is for the i'm not a spokesman for these. right? no, no, i just wonder what your view was off. the fact that you in security council of

secretary, you're the un secretary general, the said this and i should yeah, sure that israel so that immediately he should resign, which i've never heard of a, he's not, he's not going to, he's not going to resign. and, and he's got a job to do balancing lots of different views and perspective. of course, i think is the israel is very sensitive to the, the fact that it feels it was the aggrieved case. and to hear that whenever there is a sort of a distance between the aggressor and the aggrieved, now you'll get this sort of response. obviously, you remember a time? i mean, you've been observing this for decades, where a country is not only said a, you and zachary generalized to resign, but that they will no longer allow any un personnel, visas to enter that country. often, there have actually been instances where people go for the course was the you and secretary general gutierrez is actually quite an outspoken secretary general. many

of them that keep a much lower profile, these be more outspoken on russia, ukraine, but of the secretary general's mind to beat and russia has some particular you like that. so he's out to him for i think these ready reaction is over done. and i suspect will resolve for this eventually, or, i mean, i suppose what i'm getting at is it, it took you 7 years for you and your fellow privy council is to report that britain in the united states that undermine the authority of the un security council. in what you judged as the unnecessary iraq war with killed during the don't displays tens of millions in the region. i mean, k, i just after a few weeks the doing the same thing all over again, britain in fan is going to abstain with russia, right. as one resolution, as i said, but the united states repeatedly rejecting say the brazilian resolution for these for not one thing is these firewall all around the world. we see the pictures of, of thousands of children being killed. age,

you could ask why the ones the size between syria. you can ask for the ones the size in the, in your ear, man. when these was around the way, one side favorite to cease fire, another one doesn't think i didn't realize it. so you're saying the united, the say is a belligerent personally, i it, because this is not an unusual situation. it's, it's why you know, getting start between russia and ukraine as far as israel is concerned. and again, i'm not speaking for israel, good day. you might as well know that to you, as far as israel is concerned, if and how much launched an attack on israel, which killed killed large numbers of civilians while commodities in charge of causes. i fear it will happen again. so we are trying to remove them. if they have a c started that will incompetence to sleep. i don't think what by doing is going to see from us removed a i'm not going to have to look for other methods of changing the objective. but

that's why they're not accepting a seesaw and carried the issue with this problem. it is whether we can find a way to reduce an outcome that is good for the palestinians. look pretty good for how much that's a certainly been good for the palestinians and produces debility where there has been constant instability for many decades. but so you still think this, mike, what the secretary general sad about informs me that those attacks that you're referring to. did not occur in a vacuum, something. i'm sure most people would agree with you. you would say the israel as sets up by britain is, i mean, is it a tenable state? has it has been acting in the region for so many years? i mean, i know there was normalization tool, so ideas live most, most states in the region now accept the existence of the states of destroy understandable 9000000 people. little, i'm us,

i'm us kind of does because it once the 1967, the board is the pro, i mean the doesn't. let's go back to this after the general statement. the difficulty. um, it seems to be obvious. the old conflicts have a history, the full have a context and this one which is absolutely positive context all be in this case it emerges out of the belief events that i, for in yahoo government. but they should put charter in the west bank in the belief that actually they have some sort of understanding with the boss, which is why they were taken so much by so by surprise. so there's the question of the media figure with the history of this part of the world, which goes back well before the bellfield declaration is, was constant tension and conflict between underscore seduce essentially and israel. long before 1947, a to be goes back

a long time. so they're all going away and this is back home. the question is, under what conditions does this ro continue to exist? and as it has been up to now fries the economy and society without the same time making life miserable and depressing for the published a new population. yeah. now i'm feeling no in this thing and you want you to go go home. as i said last, recognize 1967 as a matter. so most is the semester said, very different things towards enjoying it so it just keeps okay. cool. it way it stands is rejection. just uh, the 1.2 did accept it. they took about the $967.00 boundaries, but it is basic stances. rejection is we suited? that's an yeah, this is was so sad to tragic about this sort of thing. but you have the um, the hotline is uh, on both sides feeding off each other. yeah,

because you suggested the medium term solution of boosting the palestinian authority. i know you did recognize the problem so that maybe explain the problems you recognize in that. because during the day, just having a cleaning for democratic legitimacy, how may i ask, who's elected be a, was elected by the election 3 years ago? yeah, i think the total is the democratic legitimacy for reasons we understand the power steering the 40 does not have a good reputation. it's uh, i bosses a cloud now. uh, this is being corrupt. it has to be particularly effective and it's being consistently undermined by the, by the israeli government. so it has another great time. i think most people looking at that solutions now it just where i think it's most useful to look of talking about the policy, the whole sort of t plus you you, you need the other arab states in the region closely involved i think. and i'm

trying to work out what you do about the developing legitimacy of this tactic governance in garza and we, because this is in the west bank, it's a territorial issue. code for cabinetry. that's not the issue with the gaza strip. it's about the conditions in which the trade and people can move in and out of control, in which case it is not possible at this moment. so i think this, you're looking for the future. you're going to be looking for the policy in all sovereignty. but with a much bigger, wider arab and international engagement, just simply because of the resources are going to be necessary to go to put the go straight back on it's feet. and isn't that without the united states? because obviously nothing. we're watching of the horrors inflicted on guys that

could be happening without the arming of israel by the united states, by britain and european union nations. this one is really general, being quoted in these riley pressing, you know, whatever we do, we take our owners defacto now as to what's happening from what actually if you look at what she was saying, when he said that what he was saying, what they just remind us what he said, because the americans of asked us to make sure that we were to get the humanitarian relief into drugs. and that's what he was saying instead of the american talk with illness instruments on israel. but anybody who's watched the history of us israel relations and us policy and us attempts to engage in the region knows the, the, the ability of, of the united states to get any, is ready to give them to do it. actually, what it wants is pretty limited. because some say there's growing feeling within israel, obviously there's a huge of a opposition before october 7th through netanyahu,

who feel actually what the united states has done over all these decades is used israel as a proxy there in the middle east and the north allowed israel to be created as a, as a normal state in the region, making allowances and links to regional higher powers. it's being used in the region now, and i'll send it has to be making links. we lose a large number of our countries. it was about to do so with, with saudi arabia, i don't see in the states on, used as proxies in this, where they're all their own have agency. everybody's got agency in the test. nobody's as a acting just it. somebody else has the, has israel went through a period in the early ninety's. it went to period in the, in the, in that, in the sixty's when it, when it was possible to imagine a different sort of israel. so to, to,

to the one that developed the different sorts of voters, they have the also process as well as those of us who remember what happened to the, our slow process was as it was going on from us as regularly mounting boma tax. and so in, within the israel to the relevant process we actually, we spoke to the home or is there any foreign minister and on the previous going home to grow? who said the also was the accord, swear of failure. and he then became chief negotiator after visiting with man, i mean, but without getting to into the information about all those different, failed the piece processes. let's just get to w. m d. i mean, in the iraq inquiry you slammed at my 6 blaming it for a rock w m d claims of israel has w. i'm the, i'm not the image chemical weapons of course uh that are being used wide false for us. is that, but of course, nuclear weapons. how can, how, how does the current, uh, sort of, uh, uh,

in the context of these are letting nuclear weapons change things. there was in the initial often mass of october, 7th, it was talk about how about us capturing over or getting to demona and be very surprised. we go to the moment. um, the israel is being declared nuclear power for the number of decades. now, it's a, it's wasn't in toy, it has to be an important factor. as a reminder of why war and not region the wind to blow between states, german israel, for example, would be potentially very catastrophic. it was raised as a potential issue during the 1973 war and actually seen it raised to something that could be used as well as any particular relevance to this case. so learns friedman, i'll stop you the more from the merits,

as professor was studies and king scholars london, known as the dean of bridget strategic studies. after this break, the lease of russian states. never as one of the most sense community best i'll send send up the keys 195 and speed. the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on rochester day, and split the ortiz full neck. even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services for the question,

did you say steven twist, which is the welcome back to going underground? i'm still here with the emeritus professor more studies at kings college london, the rock enquiries. so lawrence friedman, so on, so we were just talking about wine, many people don't really talk about or israel is nuclear weapons program. obviously they do not. i, they have one. it's not subject to the m p t. why do you think it is? but no one talks about it because surely that with the code i never heard, we do not have a house on this. the, the, the official line is we won't be the 1st to introduce me to leverage into the lease, but we won't be the 2nd. i mean, it's with a, uh, the installer declines. usually a power dies, nevada,

new key attached to. so there was some questions about an event in south africa in the late seventy's, but there's never, there's never been a decline new key test. it's not a good plan um, it's healthy for people to issue it's and usually a pilot because it gets to determine benefit from that. but it doesn't have the consequences. but it's actually declaring that it is live out there for many decades now. yeah, the library in the house of commons in london and would share that just h as in britain, rely on for information to legislate clearly says it's me a universally accepted. they have new to weapons. it isn't an important event. but if, if indeed, resistance fighters did capture demona in any way that would make it very relevant . indeed, if somebody got to demona that they get to a nuclear reactor, and some of them produces fissionable material and we can get to the weapons. and i

find it very hard to believe that they would get out so they might strike it then that the, the iraqis tried to strike it with stretch store and the 1991 doesn't storm, but that's a different uh, actually different issue. i mean, i don't think it's, it's, it's one of the main scenarios to worry about at the moment is paying that china and russia and don't agree with britain, france and united states of un security council. i mean the war in ukraine due to believe the bass is clearly stopped to moscow. hosting any p. storks after all, they have friendship with both israel and the palestinians. is that why we haven't seen the talks opened up in uh in moscow? yeah, so i think it's probably the case if we haven't done full scale invasion of ukraine . russia, would it be much more involved at the moment? and the diplomacy does have relations with iran,

which of course intensified because arrived is now supplying rush. it was weapons for its war and that's in yahoo and, and put it up as a good relationship based mode quite regularly. and they work together to to sort of stay and keep a party conflict relationship over syria. i love the relationship has become a bit more intense because air pressure is lead more to way around the obviously it has to to as well. but i think that's limits the role of rush. you can play the moment. china is as good as made. so it didn't even have a good statement, but i don't think she feel pretty wants to get involved in this conflict. china is definitely them. see a sore throat and gaza in no onset movie. it's church. china is not playing a big role in this conflict, or you use your language,

but it's not a it's, it's a, it's not going to support the last because it doesn't support the west on very much . but it's just not something that he wants to get involved in that the moment just got enough. one is good. i know that with those reports, of course, of that warships coming into the middle east, but apparently that was a routine deployment. but of course, it was china that broke the deal between iran and saudi arabia and to saudi arabia, of course, cuts off normalization talks and is being very critical of a u. k u s. c, u actually actually if you look at the readout between them, a precedent box and then the crown prince, it was really quite interesting and quite moderate in and got my wife has a garage and in the times of is around maybe oh you perhaps you can tell me this a different side of the version, but the, um uh, i don't think savvy ray who is delighted as or from us did he was thought was key

directed against id foreign policy to a degree because they didn't like the normalization towards the saudis. i'm the americans, i think patching up would it be that pretty poor relationship. and saudi is still very concerned about the rainy influence in the region to get. it looked like with a wrench with, with, with china thinks of marginal but in the end talks really a role in helping to, to, to get, to get to that uh, the have led to less than you do. they can you buy too much and or not, and i think, actually, i mean, personally, i think the saudi roll over the next a couple of weeks in the constructive sense. may may be quite important. i'd be, i'd be looking as tv buying conducive re out as

a country to comply very important part of the diplomacy. judging by the horror at the un security council in, in new york, is people discussed, was israel to doing, to the heart of the masters, which, you know, which you keep from fading. i'm, i'm, i'm not saying it. i'm just, i just don't happen in a lot. let me say things to happen in the back. you may have that they also is a response to some, quite to pulling up by some muscle is you know, most countries as managed to be a to, to express that concern in both sets of stuff. fremont, just one. yeah, no, i mean i'm just talking about the situation. i'm surprised. i mean, as you know, there, the palestinians consider that there are thousands of hostages of palestinian hostages, kept for decades, him behind bars in the, in israel. i think what i mean is that, of course, while the old countries have condemned the taking of hostages by uh,

resistance movements that come us on october 7th, they also showed ahora as i'm sure who we will feel when we see the pictures. i don't know if it's sensitive in britain, i know britain sense is a lot of journalism and the bbc. i the suspended some jen, this i didn't but certainly here in this region, the vast majority of people are seeing the horrors of what's coming out. but, but you are an expert on war and i'm wondering whether people are looking at what the russians did in the ukraine, had not flattening key. have for instance, uh versus, uh, what israel does to gaza. what to the united states and britain did to baghdad. you actually look to what russian did to marion pulled together. i'm talking about the causing thousands and thousands of civilian casualties. systematic attacks, so on ukrainian infrastructure. the, the cussing offsets the cost of electricity and water is ro is given then the

amount of warnings, israel a drug test. i really want to just kill civilians. i shared an awful lot more. would it be killed, wonderful, ready being killed by trying to attack targets, but attacking targets instability, americans about lead store goes, well i guess you're an expert on boy is obviously a besieged cherry tree with off of the 2300000 heart children. and i mean obviously if you drop that man, he bones on an open area to use it proportionately, you know, you believe it's published proportionate if you were deliberately. this is rose deliberately to just to kill civilians. and that was the only objective of the end of this and a lot more with this guy. the problem is, as you say, the if your mounting doesn't feel versions of any suit in the territory in which large numbers of civilians live on that as the secretary general of the wedding

noted, military installations of being placed amongst those civilians. then moscow aggregate the problem in russia attacked a using symbol of justifications. a civilian there is because they sadly was bought. but we look for you a subsidy to do so. little russian russian denies are home, see mushrooms was denied separately, but no i, i'm sorry to bother you, but he's a good portion. you believe it is proportional, it is rarely doing the gaza. proportionality is, is, i mean, the, the ice age. and i've written this, there is a peach tree. what are the limits? what is ro could achieve by military option? and they've got themselves in the strategic messed, to be honest. and i think raise it propulsion, i don't believe. let me explain the algorithm, sentences october, led them to set in motion a number of things which are not the uh,

the siege checks me, talking to cj as strikes. i'm pulling up large numbers of people for a little feature issue, which hasn't yet happened. proportionality as a legal concept was extraordinarily difficult, but it's not just who's told most people, it's about the concept of military necessity. uh or it just simple in an intention to kill. so it is united, strictly speaking and now you the is relative to just send people into butcher palestinians in similar ways to the way from us, but should, is riley's it. so it doesn't, it doesn't really help if you want to say, thought to bring the phenomenal to sort of the author lawrence, that the numbers are so different. well, anyway, just and finally, then, i mean, clearly the united states and it's the you proxies a lost in the enough canis done in iraq in syria. let alone as you write in your

book, vietnam allow cambodia so many other places. would iran when the war against the united states, with its allies in the region that loan defective support from the new bricks countries young i cooperation, organization, and would the united states in european union countries backing israel, what they lose? no, i don't think they would, but i would suggest, i mean the, the issues with, with a right and that issue, whether it's good for a around. just thought it depends on the right one doesn't get the impression that most directly into the desperately keen on the idea or, i don't know, of course, no one wants to. i mean the, the, with a little game lose when they just under the united states. the reason that the united states and the size of 5 so badly in iraq and of down this down into the mountains before that. and so serious,

it's nice because they, they, they tried to impose government, some places where they were welcoming well, the governments didn't have a sufficient legitimacy and authority to survive. the reason why russia has so much trouble in your brain is not welcome in you. great. i to the israel was in gaza, it left out because it left garza in 2005 because it wasn't welcome there and it won't be welcome if it tries to go back in that allow. if i have trouble again, that's why you lose what was bought by trying to impose your will on places we to we sure. don't want you to be there. and, you know, the, you can find examples for many countries where, where about just being case, the major, a straightforward, regular wolf between iran and his allies,

such as they are. and i don't think they get married 5, many people rushing to join in the united states and its allies, as long as it was a conventional was no doubt you would with a it would be the west, but i don't see it. yeah, i mean, i think many people will, uh, looking at that based on the record down, i've tried to explain what is the united states has not lost convention, was what is lost as insurgencies. um you find very few examples when the americans get beat, when it's just regular forces against regular forces, they get beat because of a very hungry they try to defeat the local indigenous. so lawrence friedman, thank you. and that's it for the show and condolences from the whole team here and going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east . we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until end keeping jobs, viral, social media. it's not sensitive annual country. and how do i channel going on the

ground tv on rumbled on. com to watch new and old episodes of going underground too fast. the the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case of the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to allow me something living on that we have very quick propaganda. you know a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're

not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions ask a better. the answer is, will be the headlines on off the international with about 8000 data in gaza. israel expands it's brundle peroration and bombing campaign with failing communications, making rescue operations, old buck impossible to became detached from the world given that all phone and internet services were cut off, making it impossible for the people to contact each other. iran acute disease rail of crossing red lines and gossip all taking him by the slab. washington fruits on unwavering support for as well as he examines the breakdown of forces in the region . as the conflict does escalate disturbances at a russian, i have bought over a plain landing from tel aviv orange, cited by a telegram news trying to link to ukraine. and that's.