modern cloud cloud equations in the world right now come from some states opposing this new multiple road order. and of course, rush and china despite all of this or continuing to expand their circle. so this effect has kind of backfired, so to speak. and the west is confrontational agenda, though, also focuses on sanctions and pressure. we have this route, but it looks like it hasn't been working. and that's the main problem that the west needs to overcome. and it's negotiations with russia is respecting international security issues and taking into account the opinions of both moscow and beijing. oh, that's great, thanks so much for breaking that down for us. that's all for this all money speak to scott. i'll be back with more in just on that 13 minutes time. i'll see you then the

my master's hands and welcome back to going underground, broke out to go around the world from a west asia transformed by war on gaza. they do a nation circle, mainstream media might make you think violence and palestine again 23 days ago in october the 7th. but the alleged genocide is repeated since the 1947. you in general assembly vote to create a jewish sector in palestine. fake news used by the powerful to go to war in the middle east as a specialty of british historians to lawrence friedman. he was on the u. k. public inquiry exposing secrets that led to the native nation war on the rock. so lawrence friedman emeritus professor was studies of kings colors, london, author of come on to the politics of military operations from korea to ukraine, joins me from the british capital. i thank you so much, sir. so lawrence for coming on. i did mention that that it goes to the future release. don't invite tony black. you wrote the help right is in from is 1999

speech in chicago on the doctrine of the international community. i mean, i'm going to ask you 1st your take on want to un secretary general antonio gutierrez schools, play a violations of international law by and he's re local, supported by britain, the united states, european union nations. i should say britain did abstain with russia on one resolution on gaza. what was the view and century general actually come down both sides to violations of international law, not just as true. and it did so because car wash places, weapons locates that as far into israel in the middle of stability in areas which is rule crime. so no, no side comes up with a fairly well well is rarely mediately said that he has to resign. these rarely i'm passive as a well, he's not going to sign this row is for i'm not a spokesman for these, right? no, no, i just wonder what your view was off. the fact that you in security council of

secretary, you're the un secretary general. the said this and i should yeah, sure that israel said immediately he should resign, which i never heard of a he's not, he's not feeling he's not going to resign him. and he is going to jump to do balancing lots of different views and perspective. of course, i think is the israel is very sensitive to the the fact that it feels it was the aggrieved case in the here. that whenever there is a sort of a distance between the aggressor and the aggrieved, now you will get this sort of response. obviously, you remember a time? i mean, you've been observing this for decades, where a country is not only said a, you and zachary general has to resign, but that they will no longer allow any un personnel visas to enter the country. offers is, there have actually been instances where people who are pretty close with you and the secretary general of gutierrez,

is actually quite an outspoken search for general. many of them that keep a much lower profile, these be more outspoken on russia, ukraine, but of the secretary general's mind to beat and russia has some particular you like that. so he's out to him for i think these radio reaction is over done and i suspect will resolve for that eventually. or, i mean, i suppose what i'm getting at is it, it took you 7 years for you and your fellow privy council is to report that britain in the united states. it undermined the authority of the un security council in what you judged as the unnecessary iraq war with killed wounded or displays tens of millions in the region. i mean, k, i just after a few weeks the doing the same thing all over again. britain in fan is getting abstain with russia, right as one resolution, as i said, but the united states repeatedly rejecting say, the brazilian resolution for these, but not one thing is these firewall all around the world. we see the pictures of, of thousands of children being killed. age you could ask why the ones the size

between syria. you can ask for the rooms, the size in the, in your ear, man, when these was around the way one side favors a ceasefire. another one doesn't please, i didn't realize, so you're saying united, the sadly is a belligerent personally i, this is not an unusual situation. it's, it's why you know, getting see star between russia and ukraine as far as israel is concerned. and again, i'm not speaking for is real good and very you might as well know that to you as far as israel is concerned. if so, how must launched an attack on israel, which killed including killed large numbers of civilians. a welcome mass is in charge of causes a fear it will happen again. so we're trying to remove them is obviously started out with incompetence to sleep. i don't think what by doing is going to see from us removed

a i'm not going to have to look for other methods of changing the objective. but that's why they're not accepting a seesaw and carried the issue with with this problem. it is whether we can find a way to reduce an outcome that is good for the post. indeed, still good for how must necessarily be good for the palestinians and produces debility, whether it's being constant, instability for many decades. but so you still think this, mike, what the secretary general sad about influence be that those attacks that you're referring to did not occur in a vacuum, something. i'm sure most people would agree with you. you would say the israel as sets up by britain is, i mean, is it a tenable state? has it has been acting in the region for so many years? i mean, i know there was normalization tool. so ideas most, most states in the region now accept the existence of the states of destroy understandable 9000000 people. little i'm us,

i'm us kind of does because it once the 1967, the board is the pro, i mean the doesn't. let's go back to this equity general statement. the difficulty um, it seems to be obvious. the old conflicts have a history by ref. we'll have a context. and this one which is opposite to that context of be in this case it emerges out of the belief events that certain young government. but they should push hard in the westbound in the belief that actually there have some sort of understanding with the boss, which is why they were taking so much by so by surprise. so this question of the media, figure, the history of this part of the world, which goes back well before the bountiful decoration is was constant tension and conflict between underscore seduce essentially and israel.

long before 1947 a to be goes back a long time. so then all going away and this is the home. the question is under what conditions does this ro continue to exist? and as it has been up to now fries the economy in society without at the same time making life miserable and depressing for the public opinion. population yeah, no, i'm okay. known as, hang. anyone should go go home as i said homeless. recognize 1967 so much the most is the most just a very different things towards enjoying its existing. okay. cool. it way it stands is rejection. just uh, the $1.00 did accept it, they took about the doctor and $0.60 in boundaries, but it is basic stances, rejection is which suits it. that's an, yeah, this is why it's so sad to tragic about this sort of thing. but you have the um, the hotline is uh, on both sides feeding off each other. yeah,

because you suggested the medium term solution of boosting the palestinian authority. i know you did recognize the problem so that maybe explain the problems you recognize in that. because during the day, just having a cleaning for democratic legitimacy, m f is elected b, a was elected by the election 3 years ago. yeah, i think is the democratic legitimacy. the reason we understand the power steering though 40 does not have a good reputation. it's a bosses a cloud now. uh, this is being corrupt. it has to be particularly effective and it's being consistently undermined by the, by the israeli government. so it has another great time. i think most people looking at that solutions now, which is what i think is most useful to look of talking about the policies most, all sort of t plus you you, you need the other arab states in the region closely involved,

i think. and i'm trying to work out what you do about the developing legit listeners tech to governance in garza and we because a spaces in the west bank, it's a territorial issue. code for cabinetry. i smoke the issue with the gaza strip. it's about the conditions in which the trade and people can move in and out of control and which can be is not possible at this moment. so i think the, if you're looking for the future, you're going to be looking for the policy in all sovereignty. but with a much bigger, wider arab and international engagement, just simply because of the resources are going to be necessary to go to put the go straight back on it's feet. and isn't that without the united states? because obviously nothing. we're watching of the horrors inflicted on guys that

could be happening without the arming of israel by the united states, by britain and european union nations. this one is really general, being quoted in these really pressing, you know, whatever we do, we take our own is defacto now as to what's happening from what actually if you look at what she was saying, when he said that what he was saying, what they just remind us what he said, because the americans of asked us to make sure that we were to get the humanitarian relief into drugs. and that's what he was saying. instead of the american talk with illness instruments on this real good. anybody who's watched the history of us israel relations and us policy and us attempts to engage in the region knows the, the, the ability of, of the united states to get any, is ready to give them to do it. actually what it wants is pretty limited because some say there's growing, feeling within israel. abusive is a huge of the opposition before october 7th through net and yahoo,

who feel actually, what the united states has done over all these decades is used israel as a proxy. there in the middle east and the north allowed israel to be created as a, as a normal state in the region, making allowances and links to regional higher powers. it's being in the region now, and i'll send it has to be making links. we lose a large number of our countries i'm just about to do so with, with saudi arabia. i don't see in the states on, used as proxies in this, where they're all, they're all have agency. everybody's got agency and the look this nobody's as a acting just as somebody else has the has israel went through a period in the early ninety's are going to period in the, in, in the sixty's when it, when it was possible to imagine a different sort of a israel so to, to, to the ones that develop a different sort of bonus,

they have the also process as well as those of us who remember what happened to the our slow process was as it was going on from us as regularly mounting boma tax and so in, within the israel to the regular process, we actually, we spoke to the home or is there any foreign minister and on the previous going home to grad who said the also was the echo and swear of failure. and he then became chief negotiator, a professional, a man, i mean, but without getting to into the, the information about all those different, failed the piece processes. let's just get to w, m d. i mean in the iraq inquiry you slammed am i 6 blaming it for a rock w m, the claims the israel has w. m the. and i'm not the image chemical weapons of course uh that are being used wide false for us. is that, but of course, nuclear weapons. how can, how, how does the current source in the context of his are letting nuclear weapons

change things? and there was in the initial aftermath of october 7th, there was talk about how about us capturing over or getting to demona and was very surprised. we go to the moment. um, the israel is being a non declared nuclear power for the number of decades now it's a, it's wasn't employee. it has to be as an important factor as a reminder of why war in that region. the wind to move between states around in israel, for example, would be potentially very catastrophic. it was raised as a potential issue during the 1973 war and actually seen it raised to something that could be used as well as any particular relevance to this case. so it's friedman, i'll stop you the more from the merits,

as professor was studies and king scholars london, known as the dean of bridget strategic studies. after this break, the, i got this back after going dock in being cut off from the world. israel continues to deny god's that everything needs to stay monitored line. in the meantime, the west collectively turns a blind died to the collective, punish palestinians, the the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the americas

professor more studies at kings college, london. the rock enquiries, sir laurence friedman. so on. so we were just talking about the wind. many people don't really talk about or israel is nuclear weapons program. obviously they deny they have one. it's not subject to the m p t. why do you think it is? but no one talks about it because surely that wasn't the home and never how he did not have a house on this. the, the, the official line is we won't be the 1st to introduce new to weapons into the lease, but we won't be the 2nd. i mean, it's with a, uh, the installer plays usually a power dies, nevada and u t. attached to that there was some questions about an event in south africa in the late seventy's, but there's never, there's never been a decline new t test. it's not a good plan. um, it's probably some people to issue. it's a new pilot because it gets a deterrent benefit from that. but it doesn't have the consequences of actually

declaring and it's live out there for many decades now. yeah, the library in the house of commons in london, i'm would share that just h as in britain, rely on for information to legislate clearly says it's me a universally accepted. they have nuclear weapons, it isn't an important event. but if, if indeed, resistance fighters did capture demona in any way that would make it very relevant . indeed, if somebody go to demona that they get to a nuclear reactor and, and some of them produces fissionable material and we can get to the weapons. and i find it very hard to believe that they would get out so they might strike it. and then the, the, the iraqis tried to strike it with stretch store and the 1991 doesn't storm, but that's a different that's a different issue. and i mean, i don't think it's, it's, it's one of the main scenarios to worry about with the moment is paying that china

and russia and don't agree with britain, france and united states of un security council. i mean the war in ukraine due to believe the bass is clearly stopped to moscow. hosting any p. storks after all, they have friendship with both israel and the palestinians. is that why we haven't seen the talks opened up in uh in moscow? yeah, so i think it's probably the case if we haven't got the full scale invasion of ukraine . russian wouldn't be much more involved at the moment. and the diplomacy does have relations with iran, which of course intensified because around this now supplying rush, it was weapons for as well. and that's and yahoo and uh, and put it up as a good relationship. um they smoke quite regularly and they work together to to sort of stay and keep

a party conflict relationship over syria. i love that relationship is become a bit more intense because air rushes lead more to it around the obviously it has to to as well. but i think this limits the role of rush. you can play the moment china is made so it didn't even have a good statement. but i don't think c picky wants to get involved in this conflict . china is definitely down. see a sore throat and gaza in no uncertain community to china is not playing a big role in this conflict or you use your language, but it's not a it's, it's a, it's not going to support the west because it doesn't support the west on very much but it's just not something that he wants to get involved in that the moment just got enough on his plan. i know there were those reports, of course, of that war ships coming into the middle east, but apparently that was

a routine deployment. but of course, it was china that broke the deal between iran and saudi arabia and the saudi arabia, of course, cut you off normalization talks and is being very critical of a u. k u s. c. u. well actually actually if you look at the read out between them a precedent box and then the crown prince, it was really quite interesting and quite moderate in, in the government whitehouse conversion in the times of his role. maybe the you, perhaps you can tell me this a different side of the version. but the, um uh, i don't think savvy ray who was delighted as or from us did he was bought, was key directed against id foreign policy to a degree because they didn't like the normalization tools and the saudis. i'm the americans, i think, practicing up what would be that pretty poor relationship. and saudi is still very

concerned about the rainy influence in the region to get. it looked like with a wrench with, with, with china. thanks a marginal but in the end talk trivial role in helping to the to get to get to that uh the have led to less than you do they can you buy too much and or not and i think actually, i mean personally, i think the saudi roll over the next couple of weeks in the constructive sense. may may be quite important. i'd be, i'd be looking a stevie by conducive re out as a country to comply. very important part of the diplomacy mean judging by the horror at the un security council in, in new york, as people discussed, was israel to doing, to the heart of the masters, which, you know, which you keep from framing. i'm, i'm, i'm not saying that i'm judging by you're still helping in,

as i normally say things to happen in the back. you may have that they also is a response to some quite of pulling out by some us of this, you know, most countries as managed to be a to, to express the concern of both sets of stuff. fremont, just one. yeah, no, i mean i'm just talking about the situation. i'm surprised. i mean, as you know, there, the palestinians consider that there are thousands of hostages of palestinian hostages, kept for decades, him behind bars in the, in israel. and i think that what i mean is that, of course, while the old countries have condemned the taking of hostages by a resistance movement, so i come us on october 7th. they also showed hora as i'm sure who we will feel when we see the pictures. i don't know if it's sensitive in britain, i know britain sense has a lot of journalism and the bbc and they suspended some journalists. i did, but certainly here in this region,

the vast majority of people are seeing the horrors of what's coming out. but, but you're an expert on war and i'm wondering whether people are looking at what the russians did in the ukraine, had not flattening key. have for instance, versus what israel does to gaza. what the united states and britain did to baghdad. you actually look to what russian did to marion pulled together. i'm talking about the causing thousands and thousands of civilian casualties. systematic attacks, so on ukrainian infrastructure. the cussing offsets the cost of electricity and water is ro cuz it's given them the amount of warnings. israel had dropped is they really wanted to just kill civilians. i shared an awful lot more. would it be killed, unable, ready, being killed by trying to attack targets, but attacking targets instability, americans about lead store goes, well,

i guess you're an expert on boy is obviously a besieged territory where off of the 2300000 children. and i mean is obviously if you drop that many bombs on an urban area, they use it proportionately, you know, you believe it's published proportionately. if you were deliberately, this is rose deliberate, please to just to kill civilians. and that was the only objective of all of this and a lot more with this guy. the problem is, as you say, the if your mounting doesn't feel versions of any sort in the territory in which large numbers of civilians live on that. as the secretary general of the un noted military installations of being placed amongst those civilians. then alaska, new aggregate. the problem in russia attacked a using similar justifications. a civilian there is because they sadly was bought. but we look to assess the thing to do so little russian russian denies or

how c mushrooms was denied that but, but no i, i'm sorry to bother you, but you think it's good portions. are you really, if it is proportional what israel are doing, the gaza? proportionality is, is, i mean, as i say, now i've written this really clearly limits to what is rep can achieve by military action. and they've got themselves, some strategic messed, to be honest. and i think raise it proportion, i don't believe. let me explain the algorithm, sentences october, led them to set in motion a number of things which are not the uh, the siege checks me. type them in the siege. asked strikes. i'm pulling up large numbers of people for a little feature issue which hasn't yet happened. proportionality as a legal concept, is extraordinarily difficult,

but it's not just the who's told most people, it's about the concept of military necessity. uh or it just simple in an intention to kill. so it is united strictly speaking and argue that is relative, just send people into butcher palestinians in similar ways to get away from us, but should, is riley's it. so it doesn't, it doesn't really help you if you want to say, thought to the number of the so the lawrence of the numbers are so different. well, anyway, just finally then, i mean, clearly the united states and it's the you proxies a lost in the enough dentist on, in iraq, in syria, let alone as you write in your book, vietnam allow cambodia so many other places. would iran when the war against the united states, with its allies in the region that loan defact as a board from the new bricks countries young i cooperation,

organization. and would the united states and european union countries backing israel? would they lose? no, i don't think they would, but i would suggest with issues with, with a rabbit issue, whether it's good for a around. just thought it depends on the right. one doesn't get the impression that most directly into the desperately keen on the idea or, i don't know, of course, no one wants to, i mean the, the, with the game lose would make just under the united states. the reason of the united states and the size of 5 so badly in iraq and of jams down into the at now the full dock and so serious, it's good because they they tried to impose government, some places where they were welcoming well the governments didn't have a sufficient legitimacy and authority to survive. the reason why russia has so much trouble in your brain is not welcome in you. great. i to the israel

was in gaza, it left out because it left gaza in 2005 because it wasn't welcomed there and it won't be welcomed if it tries to go back in the wow. if i have trouble again, that's why you lose what was bought by trying to impose your will on places we to we sure. don't want you to be there. and, you know, the, you can find examples for many countries where, where about just being a case, the, but a major, a straightforward regular wolf between iran and his allies, such as they already don't think they get married. 5, many people rushing to join in the united states and its allies, as long as it was a conventional, it was no doubt you would with a it would be the west, but i don't see it. yeah, i mean, i think many people will uh, looking at that based on the rack or doubt that i've tried to explain what is the

united states has not lost convention, was what is lost as insurgencies. um you find very few examples when the americans get beat uh, when its just regular forces against regular forces, they get beat because of a very hungry they try to defeat the local indigenous men. so lawrence friedman, thank you. and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until the end, keeping judge viral, social media. it's nonsense, it's in your country and had to have channel going underground tv on rumble. don't come to us. new and old episodes of going underground to set the the,

the over a 1000 people the dead in gaza is israel intensifies is grounded heck on paints that the communication outages timeframe rescue efforts became detached from the world. given that all phone and internet services were cut off, making it impossible for the people to contact each other. the disturbances that there was an apple of a plane landing from tel aviv we're inside said by a telegram news channel link to ukraine. but the lease is, according to the regional republics, have also had this. our goal is to the united states has completely subjugated the western camps, focusing its military and political resources on the task of retaining its elusive global dominance by any means necessary.