the the another night of violence and the gods as the enclave is hit with war barrages of his rarely rocket . the disturbing images from the north of the territory. as israel bonds, the 3 hospitals with thousands of civilians was taking shelter, killing at least 20 thank god right now. it's been the big white kid in the south of it. as you can see, things i've been busy around here. are 2 things. first hand, the dire conditions inside garza's 2nd largest hospital and saudi arabia welcomes the african leaders to a summit dedicated to the listing,

political and economic cooperation with the officials repeating calls for us to expire in johnson. when the, the, we condemn what the gaz distribute spaces for beatrice sold charges of civilian pilots investing a lot by these realize patient authorities restrict the need to stop this war and the 4th displacement over town seen it. so those are the headlines we're covering here on our t international display with us up next. the blower, the many years ago when i was a brand new c, i a officer, the senior c. i a counter intelligence official warranty about the threats that the united states face from its for an adversaries. i was told that russia, china and north korea, cuba and iran met harm to us and that their intelligence services were constantly working against us. but it wasn't just those countries that the senior official mentioned. he added that one of the most dangerous countries in the world for

americans, and especially for official americans with israel. if anything, in the intervening years as far as this real goes, that's totally gotten worse. i'm john kerry aku and welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 israel has one of the most advanced tech industries in the world. that's not a huge surprise. the country has long been a magnet for entrepreneurs. interested in tech development. is really companies frequently partner with international big tech. and these really government generously provide start up funding for new tech companies. more importantly, though, much of the tech development that is real focuses on has multiple uses. it's used to provide blanket surveillance, coverage against palestinians. for example. it's used to infiltrate peace groups or anybody else that the extreme, this right wing is really government seems to be

a potential threat. it's used to spy on people all around the world, including people active in the beads or boycott, divest and sanction movement. and it's sold to democracy's dictatorships and despots all around the world to do with what they will. in early september, i received a call from a former colleague of mine from the c i a. he asked if i had an iphone, which i do any warranty that apple had recently determined that re, israel's notorious pegasus software could breach apple security and that the company would soon send out a patch. i received that patch later in the day, but it confirmed to me with so many of us had already suspected these release can hack into the communications of literally anybody in the world. their technology is that good. that's all pretty frightening, isn't it? it's infuriating to but the truth is even worse is real use it's tech prominence to sell its occupation of palestine to the world and its dominance of the narrative to

social media companies. it's not an accident that if you post a pro palestinian comment or story on facebook or publish a pro palestinian tweet, and algorithm will either keep people from seeing it. or perhaps we'll just delete it altogether. we're going to talk about all this with a journalist who has covered this issue for years and who recently wrote a highly acclaimed book about it, antony lowenstein, is the author of the book, the palestine laboratory, how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world anthony, welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thanks so much for having me, john. anthony, i want to begin with something that you wrote about yourself in this book. you happen to be jewish, and like many of us who follow and have studied and lived in the middle east, you long supported a 2 state solution. you've reported on israel for nearly 25 years. and over the course of those 25 years after having lived in east jerusalem,

you've changed your mind about some of these big issues. tell us about that. i grew up in australia in melvin, in a liberal zine this time. and for those who don't know what that means, essentially israel was on the center of my life or the family's life, but i, my family will holocaust survivors, most of my family were killed in the holocaust in europe. and the 2nd the what we're the ones that go down to escape for everybody to get a visa, really 1939 live slave before the world again. so straight in canada, u. s. u k. and when i was growing up in the seventy's, really israel was saying as a safe haven, it was a place that god forbid something happens again to jews. we can go there. and so those who don't know as a g u, i can go to israel tomorrow. and if i can prove that my family is jewish, and my mother is jewish, i can be and he's really citizen, we can see mounts, cost, palestinians do not have that same rise. and that's the reason why i've never taken up these rarely citizenship often. but the fee is i believe, i guess, and he's rouse right to exist as a jewish state. i was pretty easy parents to be honest. and i was growing up,

palestinians didn't really exist. i didn't made pulse names, i didn't speak to palestinians. i constantly had immunization of palestinians by my family and the why the jewish community that was super coming back then it's still coming now though it is changing as i talk about in the book and elsewhere. and i think for years i saw a 2 state solution was the so called accepted view. that's what we should support that over time i was, i've been reporting there for about 20 years since about 2005 visiting there. every fee is reporting from israel, the west bank and gaza room between 201620. 20. i was living with my partner in east jerusalem as a jail, as there was a journalist. and i think of a time you start to realize 2 things. one, the 2 sides solution was always a mirage. that there was never really any intention on these rally side to equally divide the land a and b. that the idea of a 2 state solution and maintaining and julie state is by definition discriminatory . what i mean by that is that, and i said this and various other places,

including in the book, my issue with the jewish state is not because of the jewish parasite. my issue is equally with a human to majority state or christian majority stayed on muslim majority site. in fact, in the book i took a lot of that. what prime minister nobody is doing in india to transform that country. and so he can do fund of mental this nation, which is a deeply disturbing aspect so, but the jewish stays, discriminates against non use, that is what he's rel down. so if you're not view issue, i traded as a 2nd cost citizen. so familiar, one state solution is the most equitable just outcome. what was it that made you interested in tech? did that happen after you arrived in israel? and more importantly, when and how did you become interested in this invasive kind of tech that's been coming out of israel for the past 20 years or so? look, i've been looking at these issues in a way for a while and not particularly displayed these relevant. obviously post 911 has been this explosion mostly from the us and the k, but also and the, and he's going to close also from china and other countries,

china as well. so it's not unique to the west of using modern technology to survey old people to monitor them to track them. and israel is to come on the global leaders initially, when i was looking at this, he's a guy that particularly when i was living there, i became much more aware, some vehicles that were meant, the pegasus, which is the name from the spyware. that is riley company made by in his own group, but you can put onto your phone once put onto your iphone or android, and you don't even know it's the end. you can be surveilled and then to be quit us . it's used by dozens and dozens of countries, and the book talks quite a lot about that. the pegasus is literally the tip of the iceberg. and one of the things i look at in the book really is that so many of the tools and technologies that israel's been using a tested 1st on palestinians in palestine. so tell us the names since you gave me p . cuz one of the things that i say in the book is, and one level the us did this, the, me rock and afghanistan. i mean, i do this in vietnam as well, that these areas become testing grounds for new weapons. i mean,

the current war and ukraine that russia launched against the crime last year. you have countless radicals right now in neil times the financial times, talking openly about how the us is testing weapons this, giving them to the cranium. so selling and so you craniums and the testing that we're talking about, high tech weaponry drawings, etc. so in one level, what his role is doing is not the only nation that does it. the difference is that israel has a ready made occupied population on it's those that the always a half a century is the longest occupation in modern times, $56.00. he is now in counting and huge amounts of high tech width and rating the model and age spyware. drawings, especially, recognition technology, biometric data. and these are used in the way initially to track and maintain the occupation to cape palestinians under control. and now what's happening to what's been going for decades, as i saw in the book, they started well before 911. and it's

a mess of like celebrated since $911.00 is it is around really has become one of the global leaders in not just high tech weapon rate, but in the industry. it's now the tense, biggest. let's do you live in the world. can't compete with the us us remains number one must make you proud. they're about 40 percent of the world's weapons comes in the us nominations, so weapons as well. russia, france. so it's not just these route. but these are also tense because i still live in the world and where he's real east number one, or 2 is spyware. so high tech surveillance and someone's find no other forms of communication. so i was fascinated by that, but particularly the genesis of that technology, which is coming from palestine on palestinians and how israel is there for marketing that as federal tested, they woods on palestinians to a global market. that's desperate for democracies and dictatorships. i find that over a 130 countries in the world, so the majority of nations on the planet had bought some of the phone with his

riley, repressive technology. so it's pretty remarkable reco and for a tiny nation in the middle east. i don't want to sound cynical or a conspiratorial, but what's the purpose of these really tech industry, always national security? was it all ways to use against the palestinians and in what amount to is really intelligence operations? well, israel has always claimed that what they doing is from national security, that they're protecting themselves against an enemy of the palestinians in palestine, all their neighbors who at times yes of undeniably being aggressive against these route. but i think that's it as a me. so what i mean by that is that pretty much, not from the 1st day, but from the fifty's. then he's where i was founded in 1948. so pretty much within a decade of these rails, but the latest supervision. well realized, i had to make friends down the one hand, a new nation that makes sense. you have to make friends, i understand that. but that was often made for stealing. and what's happening in

the last decades particularly accelerated off to 1967 when he's real lucky part the west bank, gaza research lemon. the golan heights, is that they found that there was a very interested ready made market around the world. so it's super came as i show extensively in the book for these kinds of dental tested weapons. so for example, the us back daddy was enlightened in south america in the seventy's and eighty's. that history is relatively well 9 to an extent, a 100 years columbia. and others that were designated by us back more crimes, back to close by local forces. what's the less 9? is it israel was a key player. he knows was he's role off on was training those countries that we're offering them that were funding them. and i show extensively in the book that many of these countries, even in that time, is that the us could not fund certain nations will cries because of some looking concrete. even at those points who was there is ro,

israel came in and was happy to provide those weapons. so in that extent, i think in all the israel, across in america are being closer is arouse existence. but that i think really deepened in the seventy's when somebody's israel became america's we man, i say very much in that sense. and that hasn't really changed the spot directory came out here, sometimes from bite and about how he's very concerned about. he's really settlements, america's positive towards israel hasn't changed at all. and in fact, during the trump era, in some ways that was found more honest, i'd say that it's just a simple editor, trump at all. i think trump is a danger on many levels, but trump is on his trump said, i don't really care about the palestinians. i don't really care what they think, what they want wearing baby, these ro and full of presidents and the current president kind of give this idea that were even handed. you know, they even handed you support these route. this to be honest about then trump accelerated those trip. those trends already happening long before he came into office. so you're actually on national security is given as

a reason to what he's well does. but in fact, these ralph has used the occupation as an incredibly effective marketing tool, in some ways to get huge amounts of friends around the world, kind of transactional friendship by selling massive amounts of weaponry to anthony, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we'll ask arthur anthony lowenstein about how is real uses. it's tech. it is free to spy on friends, enemies and everybody in between states and. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the innovations and indefinite israeli occupation of gauze after the war,

as if the long standing blockade is not an occupation. this goal tells us a lot about the war being waged on. garza is a war of displacement. fantastic. when's the welcome back to the whistle blowers? i'm going to reaku. we're speaking with officer anthony lowenstein, about his outstanding new book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports and technology of occupation around the world? good to have you with us. and to me, thanks again for joining us. pause. let's get into some of the specifics that you discussed in this book. you open it with an absolutely awful story about a t land jewish family by the name of silverman. i wasn't surprised by the tragedy behind the story, which i'll ask you to relate to our viewers in a moment. but i was very surprised to learn that israel was working with the military junta, led by general. i wish to pino,

she tell us about the silver man's what happened to them and about is really involvement in the g lane crew. and it's bloody aftermath to 50 years ago. in 1973, there was a crew against the end day, the democratically elected leader of july, and was backed by the us and other nations to support initiated, dictated for years now it's relatively now in the us role of the documents. we still don't know the actual great extent of us support for the could. what's less, 9 months less. and i in fact is these riley support. now i didn't sign the book that israel was a key factor in either throwing a and a they want. but what is important to note that that would definitely a play in supporting the could they supported elements of being a chaise raising they sold weapons to, to lay of the, to the point. whereas i have in the book, the classified ca documents which show that at various points off to the could the biggest provider of ions to july was not in america. it was a 0,

it was israel for years. so that's part of the story. the story outside of a cabin, the book is really about a guy who lives in these right now. daniel silverman, whose father was killed by penalized dogs essentially. and his family was in sheila, his father was captured soon after the code in prison. and what they felt was after a while released, but in the end was what was released, but then killed by pina chaise, thugs. and to this day, daniel, who lives in israel now has no idea who has found. he has no idea with the bodies. they have no real record of anything and this, this is the legacy in some ways of what happened in 1973. and the reason our accountants in the book not from lovely just as history less than the cost that's part of it, is late to detail hughes. and how those attempts to uncover what israel was doing. and she liked hearing that she is the us, as i said,

role was clear. it was studies can't kissinger and others, but he's been trying for years unsuccessfully. i'm either through these reli supreme court to try to run cover what the hell is role was doing it. what were they doing? who would they supporting? what would they backing? who would they funding? who would they? i mean, we know the general outlines and i have in the book and degree of declassified documents the dates of that, but lot of, but we still don't know. and daniel, and these are all with his friends and colleagues, have bayne stone, little time and time and time again. so that somebody was being pulled into that store. a lot of people have read the book. one of the things that really struck me was people telling me about that story, but many, many others, lot of people just did not realize that profound extent of these riley complicity in some of the 20th and 21st century. it's nice to greatness abuses. it's much more 9 on the left with all parts on the right to i guess of american complicity in name and dictator. my last 5070 is it's 9. some of the details are still unclear to be

show what solid less 9 is riley complicity. and i can least, i won't go into all the details, but huge amounts of complicity on my list. some of the books i briefly, literally during the rwandan genocide, these are all was selling weapons to the one to the regime in a more recent time. this got exposed a few weeks ago, they'll have some details about this in the book as well. a me in my, which the u. n. sam was committing genocide against its range muslim population off to the genocide after the could. in main matter fees like a israel was selling weapons to the, to latest off to the, to after the genesis. now, i'm not saying that the only nation the will to does that. the reason i put this to the stuff in the book is so much of media framing is well rusher and trying to sell a whole format as a weapons. the details ships around the world which they do as to the americans, of course. but the difference is when it's framed in the media rusher in china, also bad america. israel noble in good next. really. that's nonsense. the industry,

by definition is ongoing and yeah, russian and trying to sell a level for weapons around the world. no one's denying that. i mean the evidence and that's i have a well me as does america, america does it on the 5 biggest scale. but what sort of less known is these riley um stealing around the well the some of these awful dictated shapes and why they doing it sometimes in partnership with the us and sometimes not. and that's probably what the book tries to expose. we've read about myriad scandals internationally over the past year where pegasus software has been used to spy on politicians, on world leaders. and even on average citizens of pegasus scandal nearly brought down the greek government in just one example. what can you tell us about pegasus surveillance software? who uses it and why it is become so prevalent? and i note that in the book you say that israel has always made sales to despotic regimes, like burma, so hard toes, indonesia,

and apartheid era. south africa are countries like that still in business with israel? yes. the short answer is yes. of course, the parts of africa is now over. it is now a democratic regime. and so the african, whether it's design could be still a pod, so that they can know, making pots i would suggest against this black population. look not much, has changed. what has changed. i think these would be the great to public scrutiny . and the reason i talk about pegasus is probably the sale of a lot of people reading the book who may have heard of peg assistance, got a bit of pressing the last fees around the world and what's less understood a value. this is what i want to say itself in frame. the, it's rogue is riley company selling also technology to re james, good and bad regime cycled good and bad. the market that democratic and despotic. and for those who to underwear, this can be put onto your fine without you knowing there's no way you would know it's on there unless he gets forensically checked. so essentially it's a silent weapon,

which is put onto your iphone or android. everything on your site. it can be viewed or accessed your camera, your microphone, your photos, your e mails, information that your loved ones. so girlfriend, boyfriend would collect whatever it may be. and one of the things that challenge in the book is sorry, much of the media coverage in the last few years is focused on pegasus. and that's an important subject and get me on a total of the chapter in the book of that. but what's missing about send that to this coverage is and it started great, which is a company behind it is not some road company. it's an i'm of the states. it's an of these rarely governments. so what i mean by that is, yes, it's a private company for sure. it's got a board and it has next prophets dislike lockheed martin and ryan sunday. but to me this is very similar. located mountains, a private company. yes. but lockheed martin is used by the us, isn't of the state. it's been use like that for decades like reyes on has been as well. they use as an um to certain foreign policy agendas of the us and

ministration might have. it's exactly the same as well. so what i show in the book is remarkable story in the last 10 years when it's in yahoo. the seemingly never ending is riley prime minister. and the most ad, these riley intelligence go around the well to regimes. they wanted refrain, i'm talking about india rolanda, you a, and they hold peg. this is out as a diplomatic harris essentially saying, you want to be friends with us. we want to be friends with you. we will sell you. it is amazingly powerful spyware. we don't want to assume any questions about where it's going. he using it again. so maybe selling it to you a you're pretty sure it's going to go against incidence. so active as human rights workers. i mean we're 10 is relatives. we would like, for example, you divide a certain way in the un. this is how it works. so what i've shown in the book this in yahoo or the most set of visits, say hungry india, rolanda you a and within 6 to 12 months pegasus,

he's in use against critics in those countries. now, you could argue that's not a 100 percent evidence, but this is how it works. is how it works. it is reli selling this equipment as a diplomatic terrace to say we will help you refresh your writing paper fee, but the fee befriend us in that kind of transaction away. and pegasus really, john is the tip of the iceberg. i signed the book, loved the media attention is going on pegasus, which in fact the companies that happy about because they're doing exactly the same thing. looks much like detention. and one of the real things is falling on this point is that the real disturbing aspects of this industry is actually unregulated . there is no regulation around the supply or industry in the last few years, some view as months. so hang on a 2nd, didn't president biden sanction these companies? in fact, he did. yes. and the last fee is by them. comes into office, the sanctions and it's over now the face of a do you think one that seems great. america is working out to human rights really and what you, what he's not regularly said,

is it this to me is nothing about sanctioning human rights abuses about america. and i took her by this little book, america is annoyed that israel is taking their business. they're angry about the fact that american spyware companies are being superseded by as riley spyware companies. some of the us is trying to do by section is riley ones, is to give a leg up to the american ones. at the moment, israel is probably number one or 2 in the global spyware industry. america is not and is united joe in america does not like nothing. number was not a big fan of the number one, even in the study weapons. so by say, by the in sanctioning of these riley spyware companies, as a way to try to assist american spyware companies, to cancer, the rise of these riley, spyware firms. and so far, it's not working particularly well to be on. you make a bowl declarative statement in the book that i couldn't agree with more. you say

that literally everything changed for these really tech and military industry on september 11th, 2001. the change may have begun with the 1991 gulf war. can you tell us what you meant by that statement, and can you quantify for us what those changes have been? you know, on the day after 911 netanyahu who was not prime minister, then we're going to be on american survey. and i have this quite in the book in a sense like the american tv at the house goes. what are your thoughts faces? oh, i think it says right, so i'm and i'm paraphrasing here. so it's a great for res route and a high switch, just like so when he told me about swimming quite 30. now, when he explained, i mean not particularly well, but what he meant was the well to finally understand what he's rails been dealing with for decades. this was the narrative, is ro, southern narrative guys has been fighting a war on terror for decades against all for muslim terrorists. so the argument goes,

and now america will understand, then you're going to join us as, as ease row, to fight that similar war. i mentioned y'all who was ross, he was absolutely correct on that, that i talked about this low in the book that signed much of the actions and rhetoric of the us post 911, was copied from these riley playable that wasn't exactly the same. but it was very similar like he's rel, perfect, a decent living on a fact in the eighty's and ninety's. i lived on 9th, 92 and it's sort of loading the book about how israel use certain language and behavior collateral damage. this is the word that was thought to be used by these riley's long before the americans started using it extensively as me. thank you so much for joining us. i learned a lot. thank you so much for having me. tell me it's been great and thank you to our viewers for taking the time to watch the great american patriot and founding father thomas paine said the government, even in its best state, is a necessary evil in its worst state. it's an intolerable one. what does the person

to do when the government takes the side of people? we don't really have the answer to that question, but it's certainly something deposit. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. aku, we'll see you next time. the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the, the

take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power, tired vision with no real opinions. pictures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills. and is it just because it shows you few fractured images presented to this 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground? can the

hold on for him. so what i just you it and then it's get close to the boy is shipped the question, can you show me and then i see it the last as a command, let's say skim projects your company and you can do it for less while and then probably in your little guy, this, prosecutors have come to the house or south, proclaimed pasta, getting out a month, and then he's been training all for this to serve in the ukrainian army for years. would you much sway the charlo so that this it has lots of good on how to start out today. right. what do you want to do computer i.