[000:00:00;00] the acceptance, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. search like why watch something that's so different. listed of opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way and say of

the many years ago when i was a brand new c, i a officer, the senior c, i a counter intelligence official warranty about the threats that the united states faced from its 4 and adversaries. i was told that russia, china and north korea, cuba and iran met harm to us and that their intelligence services were constantly working against us. but it wasn't just those countries that the senior official mentioned. he added that one of the most dangerous countries in the world for americans, and especially for official americans with israel. if anything, in the intervening years as far as israel goes, that's totally gotten worse. i'm john curiosity and welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 israel has one of the most advanced tech industries in the world . that's not a huge surprise. the country has long been

a magnet for entrepreneurs. interested in tech development. is really companies frequently partner with international big tech. and these really government generously provide start up funding for new tech companies. more importantly, though, much of the tech development that is real focuses on has multiple uses. it's used to provide blanket surveillance, coverage against palestinians. for example. it's used to infiltrate peace groups or anybody else that the extreme, this right wing is really government seems to be a potential threat. it's used to spy on people all around the world, including people active in the beads or boycott, divest and sanction movement. and it's sold to democracies, dictatorships and despots all around the world to do with what they will. in early september, i received a call from a former colleague of mine from the c i a. he asked if i had an iphone, which i do any warranty that apple had recently determined that re, israel's notorious pegasus software, could be to apples security and that the company would soon send out

a patch. i received that patch later in the day, but it confirmed to me with so many of us had already suspected these released can hack into the communications of literally anybody in the world. their technology is that good. that's all pretty frightening, isn't it? it's infuriating to but the truth is even worse is real use it's tech prominence to sell its occupation of palestine to the world and its dominance of the narrative to social media companies. it's not an accident that if you post a pro palestinian comment or story on facebook or publish a pro palestinian tweet, and algorithm will either keep people from seeing it. or perhaps we'll just delete it altogether. that we're going to talk about all this with a journalist who has covered this issue for years and who recently wrote a highly acclaimed book about it, antony lowenstein, is the author of the book, the palestine laboratory, how is real exports,

the technology of occupation around the world anthony, welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thanks so much for having me, john. anthony, i want to begin with something that you wrote about yourself in this book. you happen to be jewish, and like many of us who follow and have studied and lived in the middle east, you long supported a 2 state solution. you've reported on israel for nearly 25 years. and over the course of those 25 years after having lived in east jerusalem, you've changed your mind about some of these big issues. tell us about that. i grew up in australia in melvin, in a liberal design this time. and so those who don't know what that means, essentially israel was on the center of my life or the family's life, but i, my family will holocaust survivors. most of my family were killed in the holocaust in europe. and the 2nd load. what were the ones that got out escaped wherever they could get a visa, really 1939, literally before the war began. so straight in canada, u. s. u k. and when i was growing up in the seventy's, really israel was saying as

a safe haven, it was a place that god forbid something happens again to jews we, i can go there. and so those who don't know as a g u, i can go to israel tomorrow. and if i can prove that my family is jewish, and my mother is jewish, i can be and he's really citizen, we can see mounts, cost, palestinians do not have that same rise. and that's the reason why i've never taken up these rarely citizenship often. but the fees, i believe, i guess, and he's rouse right to exist as a jewish state. i was pretty easy parents to be honest. and i was growing up. palestinians didn't really exist. i didn't made pulse names, i didn't speak to palestinians. i constantly heads, immunization of palestinians by my family, and the why the jewish community that was super coming back then it's still coming now though it is changing as i talk about in the book and elsewhere. and i think for years i saw a 2 state solution was the so called accepted view. that's what we should support at the time i was i've been reporting there for about 20 years since about 2005 visiting there. every fee is reporting from israel,

the west bank and gaza room between 201620. 20. i was living with my partner in east jerusalem as a j house. there was a journalist and i think of a time you start to realize 2 things. one, the 2 sides solution was always a mirage, but there was never really any intention on these rally side to equally divide the land a and b. but the idea of a 2 state solution and maintaining and julie state is by definition discriminatory . what i mean by that is that in our service and various other places, including in the book, my issue with the jewish states, not because of the jewish parasite. my issue is a claim with a human to majority state or christian majority state of muslim majority site. in fact, in the book i took a lot of that. what prime minister nobody is doing in india to transform that country. and so he can do fund of mental this nation, which is a deeply disturbing aspect so, but the jewish stays, discriminates against non use. that is what he's rel does. so if you on view issue traded as a 2nd cost citizen, so familiar,

one state solution is the most equitable just outcome. what was it that made you interested in tech? did that happen after you arrived in israel? and more importantly, when and how did you become interested in this invasive kind of tech that's been coming out of israel for the past 20 years or so? look, i've been looking at these issues in a way for a while and not particularly displayed these relevant. obviously post 911 is bring this explosion nicely from the us and the k. but also in the end user, i'm going to close also from china and other countries, china as well. so it's not unique to the west of using modern technology to surveil people to monitor them to track them. and israel is become on the global leaders. and so when i was looking at this, he's a guy that particularly when i was living there, i became much more aware, some vehicles that were meant, the pegasus, which is the, in from the spyware. that is riley company, made by and its own group. but you can put onto your phone was put onto your iphone or android, and you don't even know it's there and you can be surveilled and mtv quit us. it's

used by dozens and dozens of countries. and the book talks quite a lot about that. the pegasus is literally the tip of the iceberg. and one of the things i look at in the book really is that so many of the tools and technologies that these roles been using. i tested 1st on palestinians in palestine. so tell us the names since you gave me p, cuz one of the things that i say in the book is, and one level the us did this, the new rock in afghanistan. i mean, i do this in vietnam as well, that these areas become testing grounds for new weapons. i mean, the current war and ukraine that russia launched against the crime last year. you have candles, radicals right now, in the old times, the financial times talking openly about how the us is testing weapons this, giving them so ukrainians or selling. and so he cried in and the testing them and talking about high tech weaponry drawings, etc. so in one level, what these roles doing is not the only nation that does it. the difference is that israel has a ready made occupied population on it's those that the half a century is the longest occupation in modern times,

$56.00. he is now in counting and huge amounts of high tech width and rate in the model and age, spyware, drawings, fashion recognition, technology, biometric data. and these are used in the way initially to track and maintain the occupation to cape palestinians under control. and now what's happening to what's been going for decades, as i saw in the book, they started well before 911. and it's a massively exhilarated since 911 is it is around really has become one of the global leaders in not just hot, se weaponry, but in the industry. it's now the times biggest. let's do you live in the world. can't compete with the us. us remains number one must make you proud. they're about 40 percent of welds weapons comes in the us nomination, so weapons as well, russia friends. so it's not just these route, but these are also tense because i'm still live in the world where he's real east number one, or 2 is spyware. so high tech surveillance and someone's find no other forms of

communication. so i was fascinated by that, but particularly the genesis of that technology, which is coming from palestine on palestinians and how israel is there for marketing that as battle tested, they woods on palestinians to a global market. that's desperate for democracies and dictatorships. i find that over a 130 countries in the world, so the majority of nations on the planet had bought some of the phone with his riley, repressive technology. so it's pretty remarkable reco and for a tiny nation in the middle east. i don't want to sound cynical or a conspiratorial, but what's the purpose of these really tech industry, always national security? was it all ways to use against the palestinians and in what amount to is really intelligence operations? well, israel has always claimed that what they doing is from national security, that they're protecting themselves against an enemy of the palestinians in palestine,

all their neighbors who at times yes of undeniably being aggressive against these route. but i think that's it as a me. so what i mean by that is that pretty much, not from the 1st day, but from the fifty's. and he's where i was founded in 1948. so pretty much within a decade of these rails, but the latest supervision. well realized, i had to make friends down the one hand, a new nation that makes sense. you have to make friends, i understand that. but that was often made for arms dealing and what's happening in the last decades particularly accelerated off to 1967. when these rel occupied the westbank as a resource for them in the golan heights, is that they found that there was a very interested ready made market around the world. who would suit pertain, as i show extensively in the book for these kinds of dental tested weapons? so for example, in the us back 30 was in london and south america in the seventy's and eighty's. that history is relatively well 9 to an extent, a 100 years,

columbia and others that were designated by us back more crimes back to close by local forces. what's the less 9? is it, israel was a key player we knows was, is roll off on was training those countries, so i'll bring them that we're funding them. and i show extensively in the book that in many of these countries, even in, at times of the us could not fund certain nations will cries because of some lucky and congress, even at those points. who was there is ro, israel came in and was happy to provide those weapons. so in that extent, i think in all the israel across in america are being closer is arouse existence that i think really deepened in the seventy's when somebody's israel became america's we man, i say very much in that sense. and that hasn't really changed the spot directory came out here, sometimes from bite and about how he's very concerned about. he's really settlements. americans pushed it towards israel, hasn't changed at all. and in fact, during the trump era,

in some ways that was found more honest, i'd say that it's just a simple to trump battle. i think trump is a danger on many levels, but trump is on his trump said, i don't really care about the palestinians. i don't really care what they think, what they want wearing baby, these ro and full of presidents and the current president kind of give this idea that we're even handed, not even handed the support. these are all just be honest about then trump accelerated those trip. those trends already happening long before he came into office. so you're actually on national security is given as a reason for what he's round does. but in fact, israel has used the occupation as an incredibly effective marketing tool, in some ways to get huge amounts of friends around the world, kind of transactional friendship by selling massive amounts of weaponry to anthony, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we'll ask arthur anthony lowenstein about how is real uses. it's tech industry to spy on friends,

enemies and everybody in between states and. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the lot like, like i have asked him how to start and see all those in the region. the or non state actors by the operate with the national down the normal price beyond national companies. so the don't have a chance have is mission to the race stream, you know, and bring spain back to the peace love. it comes with it or restored that came, that they are not in any way interested or in both of them. that's another part of the focus, of course. unless you understand that you could easily fall into the trouble. the american propaganda, the probably button is come on. the

. the you're watching is why isn't why in this control if i give but plenty of the store in this, this just had been a short order for not imagine just a last name scans. when i knew what the subject or desktop session, let's just shiny or just in the funds you bond is going. you sit on what's in the the the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm going to reaku. we're speaking with author anthony lowenstein. about his outstanding new book, the palestine laboratory, how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world?

good to have you with us, anthony. thanks again for joining us. pleasure. so, let's get into some of the specifics that you discussed in this book. you open it with an absolutely awful story about she land jewish family by the name of silverman. i wasn't surprised by the tragedy behind the story, which i'll ask you to relate to our viewers in a moment. but i was very surprised to learn that israel was working with the military junta, led by general august hope you know, she tell us about the silver man's what happened to them and about is really involvement in the g lane, coo and it's bloody aftermath. 50 years ago in 1973, there was a q against the end, a, the democratically elected leader of sheila and was backed by the us and all the nations to support initiated, dictated for years now. it's relatively now in the us role of the law of us documents, we still don't know the actual grave extensive us support for the could. what's less, 9 months, less than i in fact is these riley support. now i didn't sign the book that israel

was a k factoring over throwing a and a they want. but what is important to note that that would definitely a play in supporting the could they supported elements of peanut chaise raising. they sold weapons to, to lay of the, to the point whereas i have in the book the classified ca documents which show that at various points off to the could the biggest provider of ions to sheila was not in america. it was these ro, it was israel for years. so that's part of the story, the story outside of a cabin and the book is really about a guy who lives in these downtown, daniel silverman, whose father was killed by pina chaise. dogs essentially. and his family was in sheila, his father was captured soon after the co or in prison. and what they thought was after a while released but in the end was what was released but then killed by finish. i sags and to this day, daniel,

who lives in israel now has no idea whose family has no idea with the bodies. i have no real record of anything. and this, this is the legacy in some ways of what happened in 1973. and the reason that our accountants in the book taught from lovely just as history less than the cost that's part of it is lead to detail. he is and how those attempts to uncover what israel was doing. and she liked hearing that she is the us, as i said, role was clear. it was such as kent kissinger and others. but he's been trying for years, unsuccessfully on my dad for these really supreme court to try to uncover what the hell these role was doing it. what were they doing? who would i supporting? what would they backing? who would they funding? who would they? i mean, we know the general outlines and i haven't the book and degree of declassified documents the detail of that. but a lot of that we still don't know. and daniel, and these are all with his friends and colleagues, have bayne stone, little time and time and time again. so that somebody was being pulled into that store. a lot of people have read the book. one of the things that really struck me

was people telling me about that story, but many, many others. while the people just did not realize the profound extent of these riley complicity in some of the 20th and 21st century is nice. the greatest abuses . it's much more 9 on the left with all parts on the right to i guess of american complicity in name and dictator. my last 5070 is it's 9. some of the details are still unclear to be sure what solid less 9 is riley complicity. not going to list, i won't go into all the details, but huge amounts of complicity in my list. some of the books i briefly, literally during the rwandan genocide, israel was selling weapons to the real ones in raising in a more recent time. this got exposed a few weeks ago. they'll have some details about this in the book as well. me and my which the u. n. found was committing genocide against its range muslim population off to the genocide after the could in may in minor fees like

a israel was selling weapons to the, to latest off to the, to and after the genesis now i'm outside of the, in the nation. the will to does that, the reason i put this sort of stuff in the book is so much of media framing is well rusher and trying to sell a whole format as a weapon. city type of ships around the world, which they do as to the americans. of course, but the different saves limits find in the media rusher and china, also bad america. israel noble and good. next really, that's nonsense. the alms industry, by definition is ongoing in near rusher and trying to sell a lot of also weapons around the world. no one's denying that i mean the evidence and that's i have a well me as does america, america does it on the 5 biggest scale, but what's solid list known as these riley um, stealing around the well the some of these awful dictated ships and why they doing it sometimes in partnership with the us and sometimes not. and that's probably what the book tries to expose. we've read about myriad scandals internationally over the

past year where pegasus software has been used to spy on politicians on world leaders. and even on average, citizens of pegasus scandal nearly brought down the greek government in just one example. what can you tell us about pegasus surveillance software? who uses it and why it is become so prevalent? and i note that in the book you say that israel has always made sales to despotic regimes. like burma, so hard toes, indonesia, and apartheid era. south africa are countries like that still in business with israel. yes. the short answer is yes. of course, the parts of africa is now over. it is now a democratic regime. and so that's a good whether it's design could be still a positive, it can only composite, i would suggest against it's black population. look not much has changed. what has changed. i think it's a bit a great to public scrutiny, and the reason i talk about pegasus is probably the sale of a lot of people reading the book who may have heard of pegasus got a bit of pressing the last fees around the world. and what's less understood

a value, this is what i want to say. it's often framed as this rogue is riley company selling also technology to re james good and bad, raging cycle. good and bad. the market that democratic and despotic and fidelity to underwear. this can be put onto your fine without you knowing there's no way you would know it's on them a seat, it's forensically checked. so essentially it's a silent width and which is put onto your iphone or android. everything on your site can be viewed or accessed your camera, your microphone, your photos, your e mails, information that your loved ones. so girlfriend, boyfriend would collect whatever it may be. and one of the things that challenge in the book is sorry, much of the media coverage in the last few years is focused on pegasus. and that's an important subject that gives me a total of the chapter in the book about a but what's missing about. so not to this coverage is and it started great, which is

a company behind it is not some road company. it's an i'm of the states. it's an of these rarely governments. so it's what i mean by that is yes, it's a private company for sure. it's got a board and it has mex prophets dislike lockheed martin and ryan sunday. but to me this is very similar. located mountains, a private company. yes. but lockheed martin is used by the us, isn't of the state. it's been use like that for decades like reyes on has been as well they use as an um to certain foreign policy agenda is that the us, the ministration might have. it's exactly the same as well. so what i show in the book is remarkable, storing the last 10 years when it's in yahoo. the seemingly never ending is riley prime minister. and the most ad, these riley intelligence go around the well to regimes they wanted refrain. i'm talking about india rolanda, you a, and they hold peg. this is out as a diplomatic care of essentially saying, you want to be friends with us. we want to be friends with you. we will sell you. it is amazingly powerful spyware. we don't want to ask him any questions about

where it's going. he using it again. so maybe selling it to you a you're pretty sure it's going to go against incidence. so active as human rights workers. i mean return is relatives. we would like, for example, you divide a certain way in the un. this is how it works. so what i've shown in the book this in yahoo or the most set of visits, say hungry india, rolanda you a and within 6 to 12 months pegasus using use against critics in those countries. now, you could argue that's not a 100 percent evidence, but this is how it works. is how it works. it is reli selling this equipment as a diplomatic terrace to say we will help you refresh your writing paper fee, but the fee befriend us in that kind of transaction away. and pegasus really, john is the tip of the iceberg. i signed the book, loved the media attention is going on pegasus, which in fact the companies that happy about because they're doing exactly the same thing. looks much like detention. and one of the real things is following on this

point is that the real disturbing aspects of this industry is actually on regulated . there is no regulation around the supply or industry in the last fee some view as months. so hang on a 2nd, didn't president biden sanction these companies? in fact, he did. yes. and the last fee is by them comes into office. these sanctions and it's over now the face of a do you think one that seems great. america is working out to human rights really and what he, what he's not regularly said, is it, this to me is nothing about sanctioning human rights abuses about america. and i talked about this a lot in the book. america is annoyed that as well as taking the business, they're angry about the fact that american spyware companies are being superseded by as riley spyware companies. some of the us is trying to do by sanction is riley wants, is to give a leg up to the american ones. at the moment. israel is probably number one or 2 in the global spyware industry. america is not. and is united,

joe in america does not like nothing. number was not a big fan of the number one, even in the study weapons. so by say, by then sanctioning of these riley spyware companies, as a way to try to assist american spyware companies to cancel the rise of the ease riley, spyware firms. and so far, it's not working particularly well to be on. you make a bowl declarative statement in the book that i couldn't agree with more. you say that literally everything changed for these really tech and military industry on september 11th, 2001. the change may have begun with the 1991 gulf war. can you tell us what you meant by that statement, and can you quantify for us what those changes have been? you know, on a day after 911 nets and yahoo, who was not prime minister, then was interviewed on american tv. and i have this quite in the book, a lot of sense, like the american tv act house, guys. what are your thoughts a? so the last thing is this, right? so i'm,

and i'm paraphrasing it says it's like right for res row and the high switch, just like, sorry, what are you talking about screaming quite serious row now, when he explained, i mean, not particularly well, but what he meant was the well to finally understand what these rails been dealing with for decades, this was the narrative. these ro, southern narrative guys has been fighting a war on terror for decades of gains also muslim terrorists. so the argument goes and now america will understand, then you're going to join us as, as these ro, to fight. that's similar. what i mentioned yahoo was ross. he was absolutely correct on that, that i talk about this low in the book that so much of the actions and rhetoric of the us post 911 was copied from these riley playbook that wasn't exactly the same. but it was very similar like use route to fix a decent living on effect in the eighty's when names i lived on, 9th, 92. and i taught alone in the book about how is rel, use certain language and behavior collateral damage. this is the word that was

thought to be used by these riley's long before the americans started using it extensively as me. thank you so much for joining us. i learned a lot. thank you so much for having me, john. it's been great and thank you to our viewers for taking the time to watch the great american patriot and founding father thomas paine said the government, even in its best state, is a necessary evil in its worst states. it's an intolerable one. what is the person to do when the government takes the side of evils? we don't really have the answer to that question, but it's certainly something deposit. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm just curious cuz we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 on

the acceptance and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my shelves. they main street because i'm probably

going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the waiting. thank the civilians in garza city is the biggest hospital are reportedly understood. instead of hiding between israel on a mazda in circles to facilitate the israel bomb 3 hospitals in northern dogs, there were thousands of civilians were seeking shelter, filling at least 20 and in the south of the enclave. thank god right