said to senior c, i a counter intelligence official warranty about the threats that the united states face from this foreign adversaries. i was told that russia, china and north korea, cuba and iran met harm to us and that their intelligence services were constantly working against us. but it wasn't just those countries that the senior official mentioned. he added that one of the most dangerous countries in the world for americans. and especially for official americans with israel. if anything, in the intervening years as far as this real goes, that's totally gotten worse. i'm john curiosity and welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 israel has one of the most advanced tech industries in the world. that's not a huge surprise. the country has long been a magnet for entrepreneurs. interested in tech development. is really companies frequently partner with international big tech. and these really government

generously provide start up funding for new tech companies. more importantly, though, much of the tech development is real focuses on has multiple uses. it's used to provide blanket surveillance, coverage against palestinians. for example. it's used to infiltrate peace groups or anybody else that the extreme, this right wing is really government seems to be a potential threat. it's used to spy on people all around the world, including people active in the beads or boycott, divest and sanction movement. and it's sold to democracies, dictatorships and despots all around the world to do with what they will. in early september, i received a call from a former colleague of mine from the c i a. he asked if i had an iphone, which i do any warranty that apple had recently determined that re, israel's notorious pegasus software could breach apple security and that the company would soon send out a patch. i received that patch later in the day, but it confirmed to me with so many of us had already suspected these release can

hack into the communications of literally anybody in the world. their technology is that good. that's all pretty frightening, isn't it? it's infuriating to but the truth is even worse is real use it's tech prominence to sell its occupation of palestine to the world. and it's dominance of the narrative to social media companies. it's not an accident that if you post a pro palestinian comment or story on facebook or publisher, pro palestinian tweet and algorithm will either keep people from seeing it. or perhaps we'll just delete it altogether. a we're going to talk about all this with a journalist who has covered this issue for years and who recently wrote a highly acclaimed book about it, antony lowenstein, is the author of the book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world? anthony, welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thanks so much for having me, john. anthony,

i want to begin with something that you wrote about yourself in this book. you happen to be jewish, and like many of us who follow and have studied and lived in the middle east, you long supported a 2 state solution. you've reported on israel for nearly 25 years. and over the course of those 25 years after having lived in east jerusalem, you've changed your mind about some of these big issues. tell us about that. i grew up in australia in melvin, in a liberal design this time. and so those who don't know what that means, essentially israel was on the center of my life or the family's life, but i, my family will holocaust survivors. most of my family were killed in the holocaust in europe. and the 2nd, the lower the ones that go down, escape for everybody to get a visa, really 1939 live slave before the world again. so straight in canada, u. s. u k. and when i was growing up in the seventy's, really israel was saying as a safe haven, it was a place that god forbid something happens again to jews we, i can go there. and so those who don't know as a g u,

i can go to israel tomorrow. and if i can prove that my family is jewish, and my mother is jewish, i can be and he's really citizen, we can see mounts, cost, palestinians do not have that same rise. and that's the reason why i've never taken up these rarely citizenship offering. but the fee is i believe, i guess, and he's rouse right to exist as a jewish state. i was pretty easy parents to be honest and i was growing up. tell us the names didn't really exist. i didn't made pellets names. i didn't speak to palestinians. i constantly heads, immunization, and palestinians by my family and the why, the jewish community that was super coming back then it's still coming now though it is changing as i talk about in the book and elsewhere. and i think for years i saw a 2 state solution was the so called accepted view. that's what we should support that over time i was, i've been reporting there for about 20 years since about 2005 visiting there. every fee is reporting from israel, the west bank and gaza room between 201620. 20. i was living with my partner in east jerusalem as a j house. there was a journalist and i think of

a time you start to realize 2 things. one, the 2 sites solution was always a mirage, but there was never really any intention on these rally side to equally divide the land a and b. but the idea of a 2 state solution and maintaining a jewish state is by definition, disagreement. tell you what i mean by that is that, and i said this and various other places, including in the book my issue with the jewish states, not because of the jewish parasite. my issue is equally with a human to majority state or christian majority state of muslim majority site. in fact, in the book i took a lot of that. what prime minister nobody is doing in india to transform that country. and so he can do fund of mental this nation, which is a deeply disturbing aspect so, but the jewish stays, discriminates against non use, that is what he's rel down. so if you're not view issue, i traded as a 2nd cost citizen. so familiar, one state solution is the most equitable just outcome. what was it that made you interested in tech? did that happen after you arrived in israel?

and more importantly, when and how did you become interested in this invasive kind of tech that's been coming out of israel for the past 20 years or so? look, i've been looking at these issues in a way for a while and not particularly displayed these relevant. obviously post 911 has been this explosion mostly from the us and the k. but also in the end user, i'm going to close also from china and other countries, china as well. so it's not unique to the west of using modern technology to surveil people to monitor them to track them. and israel is the come on the global leaders in this. so when i was looking at this, he's a guy that particularly when i was living there, i became much more aware of some vehicles that were meant, the pegasus, which is the name from a spyware. that is riley company made by in its own group. but you can put onto your phone once put onto your iphone or android, and you don't even know it's there and you can be surveilled and mtv quit us. it's used by dozens and dozens of countries. and the book talks quite a lot about that. the pegasus is literally the tip of the iceberg. and one of the things i look at in the book really is that so many of the tools and technologies

that israel's been using a tested 1st on palestinians in palestine. so tell us the names since you gave me p, cuz one of the things that i saying the book is, and one level the us to this, the, me rock and afghanistan. i mean, i do this in vietnam as well, that these areas become testing grounds for new weapons. i mean, the current war and ukraine that russia launched against the crime last year. you have countless lot of goals right now in the old times, the financial times tilting openly about how the us is testing weapons this, giving them so you craniums or selling and so you craniums and the testing them and talking about how i take weaponry, drawings, etc. so in one level, what these role is doing is not the only nation that does it. the difference is that israel has a ready made occupied population on it's dose that the half a century is the longest occupation in modern times. 56, he is now in counting and huge amounts of high tech, width and rate in the modern age, spyware, drones faction, recognition technology,

biometric data. and these are used in the way initially to track and maintain the occupation to cape palestinians under the control. and now what's happening to what's been going for decades as i show in the book, the started well before 911. and it's a mess of like celebrated since 911 is it is around really has become one of the global leaders in not just high. it's a weapon rate, but in the industry it's now the times biggest dealer in the world can't compete with the u. s. u s. remains number one must make you proud. they're about 40 percent of the world's weapons comes in the us nominations, so weapons as well. russia, france, so it's not just these route, but these are also tense because i'm still live in the world where he's real east number one, or 2 is spyware. so high tech surveillance and someone's find all the forms of communication. so all assessment and a by that, but particularly the genesis of that technology,

which is coming from palestine on palestinians and how israel is, therefore, marketing that as a federal tested they woods on palestinians to a global market. that's desperate for democracies and dictatorships. i find that over a 130 countries in the world, so the majority of nations on the planet had bought some of the phone with his riley, repressive technology. so it's pretty remarkable rankel and for a tiny nation in the middle east. i don't want to sound cynical or a conspiratorial, but what's the purpose of these really tech industry, always national security? was it all ways to use against the palestinians and in what amount to is really intelligence operations? well, israel has always claimed that what they doing is some national security that they're protecting themselves against an enemy of the palestinians in palestine, all their neighbors who at times yes of undeniably being aggressive against these route. but i think that's bit of a me. so what i mean by that is that pretty much,

not from the 1st day, but from the fifty's. then he's where i was founded in 1948. so pretty much within a decade of these rails, but the latest supervision. well realized, i had to make friends down the one hand, a new nation that makes sense. you have to make friends, i understand that. but that was often made for stealing. and what's happening in the last decades particularly accelerated off to 1967. when these are lucky pods of westbank galleries through is lemon. the golan heights is the best found that there was a very interested ready made market around the world who would see pertain as i show extensively in the book for these kinds of dental tested weapons. so for example, the us back daddy was in london in south america in the seventy's and eighty's, the histories relatively well 9 to an extent, a 100 years, columbia and others that were designated by us back more crimes back to cost by local forces. what's the less 9?

is it israel was a key player when those was, these are all off on was training those countries. so i'm going them that we're funding them. and i show extensively in the book that in many of these countries, even in that time is that the us could not fund certain nations will cries because of some lucky and concrete, even at those points. who was there? he's ro is real time man, and was happy to provide those weapons. so in that circumstance, i think, and although he's rel, across in america being close to ease arouse existence that i think really deepened in the seventy's when somebody's israel became america's wing. man, i say very much in that sense and that hasn't really changed despite the rhetoric you now he is sometimes from bite and about how he's very concerned that that is really settlements. americans push it towards these role hasn't changed at all. and in fact, during the trump era, in some ways that was found more honest, i didn't say that it's just as important or trump at all. i think trump is the danger on many levels, but trump is on his trump said,

i don't really care about the palestinians. i don't really care what they think, what they want, where in bag, with these ro and former presidents and the current president kind of give this idea that were even handed, not even handed you support. these are all just be honest about then trump accelerated. that's true, those trends are already happening long before he came into office. so you're actually on national security is given as a reason. so what he's around does, but in fact he's ralph has used the occupation as an incredibly effective marketing tool in some ways to get huge amounts of friends around the world, kind of transactional friendship by selling massive amounts of weaponry to anthony, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we'll ask arthur anthony lowenstein about how is real use. it's, it's tech, it is free to spy on friends, enemies and everybody in between states and. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 since world war 2,

united states has fostered extremist and to russian prejudices and hatreds among the ukrainian d as for 10, at least in canada, united states and countries in eastern europe, probably everywhere in the it doesn't matter what these groups say or do. it will support them if it is, the groups are causing hatred and chaos within the target country. joe again might done on the cheese, but it sounds great deal of the sort of you will as well as one of the middle. i know myself, it just means that the potential is usually just $50.00. let me see, i see a use is anyone at any time if there's a religion the

how successful like like how about how to start and see all those in the region. the or non state actors by the operate with the national down the normal price beyond national companies. so if you don't have it, you have is mission to the race stream, you know, and bring spain back to the peace love at the end of or restore the king that they are not in any way interested or involved in that. that's how the point of this course, unless you understand that you could easily fall into the trouble, the american propaganda. the probably button is come on. the

welcome back to the list of lawyers and john to reaku. we're speaking with author anthony lowenstein, about his outstanding new book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports and technology of occupation around the world? good to have you with us, anthony. thanks again for joining us. pause. let's get into some of the specifics that you discussed in this book. you open it with an absolutely awful story about a t land, jewish family by the name of silberman. i wasn't surprised by the tragedy behind the story, which i'll ask you to relate to our viewers in a moment. but i was very surprised to learn that israel was working with the military junta, led by general, ugly stop. you know, she tell us about the silver man's what happened to them and about is really involvement in the g lane crew. and it's bloody aftermath to 50 years ago. in 1973, there was a clue against the end day, the democratically elected leader of july, and was backed by the us and other nations to support initiated,

dictated for years now it's relatively now in the us role of the documents. we still don't know the actual great extent of us support for the could. what's less, 9 months less. and i in fact is these riley support. now i didn't sign the book that israel was a key factor in over throwing a and a they want. but what is important to note that that would definitely a play in supporting the could they supported elements of being a chaise raising they sold weapons to, to lay of the, to the point. whereas i have in the book, the classified ca documents which show that at various points off to the could the biggest provider of ions to july was not in america. it was a 0, it was these ro for years. so that's part of the story. the story outside of a cabin, the book is really about a guy who lives in these around now. daniel silverman, whose father was killed by pina chaise, dogs essentially. and his family was in sheila,

his father was captured soon after the code in prison. and what they felt was after a while released, but in the end was what was released, but then killed by pina chaise, dogs. and to this day, daniel, who lives in israel now has no idea whose family has no idea with the bodies. they have no real record of anything and this, this is the legacy in some ways of what happened in 1973. and the reason that our accountants in the book not from literally just a history less than of the cost that's part of it, is lead to detail hughes. and how those attempts to uncover what israel was doing. and she liked hearing that she is the us, as i said, role was clear. it was studies can't kissinger and others, but he's been trying for years unsuccessfully. i'm either through these really supreme court to try them on top of what the hell is role was doing that. what were they doing? who was i supporting? what would they backing? who would they funding? who would they? i mean, we know the general outlines and i have in the book and degree of declassified

documents the detail that but lot of, but we still don't know. and daniel, and these are all with his friends and colleagues, have bayne stone, little time and time and time again. so that to me was the importance of that story . a lot of people have read the book. one of the things that really struck me was people telling me about that story, but many, many others, more people just did not realize that profound extent of these riley complicity in some of the 20th and 21st century. it's nice to greatness abuses. it's much more 9 on the left with all parts on the right to i guess of american complicity and name and dictator. my last 5070 is it's 9. some of the details are still unclear to be show what solid less 9 is riley complicity. and i can least, i won't go into all the details, but huge amounts of complicity. i'm at least some of the books i briefly, literally during the rwandan genocide he's rel, was selling weapons to the one to the regime in a more recent time. this got exposed a few weeks ago,

they'll have some details about this in the book as well. i mean, uh which the un sound was committing genocide against its range. the muslim population off to the genocide off the could in main matter fees. israel was selling weapons to the, to latest off to the co after the genesis. now, i'm not saying that the only nation the will to does that. the reason i put this sort of stuff in the book is so much of media framing is well rusher and trying to sell a whole format as a weapon. city type of ships around the world, which they do as to the americans of course. but the difference is when it's framed in the media rusher in china, also bad america, israel noble and good. next. really? that's nonsense. the ons industry by definition is ongoing and yeah. rusher and trying to sell a lot of also weapons around the world. no one's denying that i mean the evidence and that's i have a well me as does america, america does it on the 5 biggest scale, but what's solid list known as these riley um,

stealing around the well the some of these awful dictated ships and why they doing it sometimes in partnership with the us and sometimes not. and that's probably what the book tries to expose. we've read about myriad scandals internationally over the past year where pegasus software has been used to spy on politicians on world leaders. and even on average, citizens of pegasus scandal nearly brought down the greek government in just one example. what can you tell us about pegasus surveillance software? who uses it and why it is become so prevalent? and i note that in the book you say that israel has always made sales to despotic regimes. like burma, so hard toes, indonesia, and apartheid era. south africa are countries like that still in business with israel. yes. the short answer is yes. of course a pod down so that figure is now over it is now a democratic regime. and so that's a good whether it's design could be still a pod so that they can now make it possible i would suggest against is black

population. look, not much has changed. what has changed. i think he's a bit of great to public scrutiny. and the reason i talk about pegasus is probably the sale of a lot of people reading the book who may have heard of pegasus has got a bit of price and the last fees around the world and what's less understood a value. this is what i want to say itself in frame. this is rogue, is riley company selling also technology to raise james, good and bad regime cycled good and bad. the market at democratic and despotic and fidelity to underwear. this can be put onto your fine without you knowing. there's no way you would know it's on them a seat, it's forensically checked. so essentially it's a silent weapon, which is put onto your iphone or android. everything on your assign can be viewed or accessed your camera, your microphone, your photos, your e mails, information about your loved ones. so girlfriend, boyfriend work like whatever it may be. and one of the things i challenge in the

book is sorry, much of the media coverage in the last few years is focused on pegasus. and that's an important subject that gives me a total of the chapter in the book about a but what's missing about send that to this coverage is and it started great because the company behind it is not some road company. it's an i'm of the states. it's an of these rather the government. so it, what i mean by that is yes, it's a private company for sure. it's got a board and it has mex profit's dislike, lockheed martin and reyes on day. but to me, this is very similar, located mountains of private company. yes. but located mountain is used by the us, isn't of the state. it's been used like that for decades like race on has been as well they use as an um to certain foreign policy agendas or the us and ministration might have. it's exactly the same as well. so what i show in the book is remarkable story in the last 10 years when it's in yahoo, the seemingly never ending is riley prime minister. and the most ad, these riley intelligence go around the well to regimes they wanted refrain. i'm

talking about india rolanda, you a, and they hold pegasus out as a diplomatic care of essentially saying, you want to be friends with us. we want to be friends with you. we will sell you. it is amazingly powerful spyware. we don't want to assume any questions about where it's going. he using it again, so maybe selling it to you a pretty show it's going to go against this it in so active as human rights workers . i mean we're 10 is relatives. we would like, for example, you divide a certain way and the you in. this is how it works. so what i've shown in the book this in yahoo or the most set of visits, say hungry india, rolanda you a and within 6 or 12 months, peg associates in use against critics in those countries. now, you could argue that's not a 100 percent evidence, but this is how it works. is how it works at ease reli, selling this equipment as a diplomatic terrace to say we will help you refresh your writing paper fee. but if you befriend us in that kind of transactional way and pegasus really,

john is the tip of the iceberg. i signed the book loved the media attention is going on pegasus, which in fact the companies are happy about because they're doing exactly the same thing. like mostly tension and one of the real things is falling on this point is that the real disturbing aspect of this industry is actually unregulated. there is no regulation around the spiral industry in the last fi, some view as months. so hang on a 2nd, didn't president biden sanction these companies? in fact, you did. yes. and the last fee is by them comes into office, the sanctions and it's over now the face of a do you think one that seems great. america is working out to human rights. brilliant. what you, what is not regularly said, is it, this to me is nothing about sanctioning human rights abuses about america. and i talk about this a lot in the book. america is annoyed that as well as taking their business, they're angry about the fact that american spyware companies are being superseded

by as riley spyware companies. more the us is trying to do by sanction is riley ones, is to give a leg up to the american ones. at the moment. israel is probably number one or 2 in the global spyware industry. america is not. and is united, you on america does not like nothing. number was not a big fan of the number one, even in the study weapons. so i say by then sanctioning of these riley spyware companies, as a way to try to assist american spyware companies, to can, to the rise of these riley spyware firms. and so far, it's not working particularly well. and so beyond, you make a bold declarative statement in the book that i couldn't agree with more. you say that literally everything changed for these really tech and military industry on september 11th, 2001. the change may have begun with the 1991 golf war. can you tell us what you meant by that statement? and can you quantify for us what those changes have been?

you know, on a day after 911 nets and yahoo, who is not prime minister, then we're going to be on american survey. and i have is quite in the book, a kind of sense, like the american tv act. how skies, what are your thoughts? he says, oh, i think he says, right, so i mean, i'm paraphrasing it says it's a great for res route in a heist which was like, so when he told me about screaming quite stories ro. now, when he explained to me not particularly well, but what he meant was the well to finally understand what he's rails been dealing with the decade. this was the narrative. these ro, southern narrative guys has been fighting a war on terror for decades against also muslim terrorist. so the argument goes, and now america will understand, then you're going to join us as, as ease row, to fight that similar war. i mentioned y'all who was ross. he was absolutely correct on that, that i talked about this low in the book that signed much of the actions and rhetoric of the us post 911 was copied from these riley playable that wasn't

exactly the same. but it was very similar like he's rel, perfect, a decent living on. in fact, in the eighty's and ninety's, i lived on 9th, 92. and it's sort of loading the book about how israel use certain language and behavior collateral damage. this is the word that was thought to be used by these riley's long before the americans started using it extensively. and to me, thank you so much for joining us. i learned a lot. thank you so much for having me, john. it's been great and thank you to our viewers for taking the time to watch the great american patriot and founding father thomas paine said the government, even in its best state, is a necessary evil in its worst state. it's an intolerable one. what is the person to do when the government takes the side of the envelope? we don't really have the answer to that question, but it's certainly something to ponder. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. aku, we'll see you next. time the. 2 2 2 2 2

2 2 2 2 2 2 the, the high acceptance and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show search like why watch something that's so different listed of opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do i have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want marshall stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direction, but again, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you think. you know, probably maybe some, some did you say the

week monday or is cisco web shows or some, you know, book or used to work? what's the way and i've emailed you about your ssl set up for general, but some of the things up the schools on most and that leaves the windows and move on to if you need because usually the media is looking as well as those are one of which would be the see it but not least agree that that was the

civilians at sheltering in hospice, open open guns that are close and across the fund. and if it gets really expensive with hundreds, of course, for patients facing death with health cuts, and even if we have to provide treatment for them by capitalizing the fuel is supposed to run out within hours, will remain here. and we will not need to displace no met at the cost. tens of thousands of civilians lead to southern gaza under the humanitarian crisis following gets well on baldwin of the end. please note we hear from a local journalist who's among the dispatch suffering here in the northern borders to find the find the findings to hold.