this already dire situation, so it seems not only that living on may be dragged into this world. there is even a possibility. the other states and non state actors get involved, which would essentially lead to further conflict and further bloodshed. what's a vi, troubling thoughts? indeed, yes, and thanks very much for breaking down the latest between israel and 11 and thank you. of the u. k. now where hundreds of thousands of protesters have gathered on the streets of london calling for a sci fi and gaza. the rich fan called the timing of the rally, disrespectful as it coincides with almost his day. mocking the end of the 1st world war, an estimated 800000 people gathered, making one of the largest demonstrations in british history. please say over a 100 arrests were made to mistakes that dickenson gave us his reaction from the c of the items, their name is brandy and that they're all on these cards. and so part of the screening guides and honest and that's there's nothing exemptions for unions watched for this patient. you reset the printer's, not cheese,

you have ceased by now. step for me to 1000. they 5 dollars a because we are with you guys, but you got so many signs of people sending a box to same actually you problem from denver boss to present the spending on c, e for nowadays. and if it's there, all the authorities, i've done that, that really listen to what people say there was a mess with the disconnect here and put some 3 people, the media on with them. just before we go, a suspected terrorist attack has led to the development of a cargo training versus the as on region, which is in the west of the country. and that's according to bushes investigative committee. the train was carrying mineral fertilizers and investigates, a suspect that's an improvised explosive device calls. the development of the 15 wagons will bring you more information on that story us. and when we get this, let's abrupt phenomenon. speak to scott on the back again at the top of the hour

for the latest news and views that were not to the many years ago when i was a brand new c i a officer to senior c. i a counter intelligence official warranty about the threats that the united states faced from its foreign adversaries. i was told that russia, china and north korea, cuba and iran met harm to us and that there intelligent services were constantly working against us. but it wasn't just those countries that the senior official mentioned. he added that one of the most dangerous countries in the world for americans, and especially for official americans with israel. if anything,

in the intervening years as far as this real goes, that's totally gotten worse. i'm john curiosity and welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 israel has one of the most advanced tech industries in the world. that's not a huge surprise. the country has long been a magnet for entrepreneurs. interested in tech development. is really companies frequently partner with international big tech. and these really government generously provide start up funding for new tech companies. more importantly, though, much of the tech development that is real focuses on has multiple uses. it's used to provide blanket surveillance, coverage against palestinians. for example. it's used to infiltrate peace groups or anybody else that the extreme, this right wing is really government seems to be a potential threat. it's used to spy on people all around the world, including people active in the beads or boycott,

divest and sanction movement. and it's sold to democracies, dictatorships and despots all around the world to do with what they will. in early september, i received a call from a former colleague of mine from the c i a. he asked if i had an iphone, which i do any warranty that apple had recently determined that israel's notorious pegasus software could breach apple security and that the company would soon send out a patch. i received that patch later in the day, but it confirmed to me with so many of us had already suspected these released can hack into the communications of literally anybody in the world. their technology is that good? that's all pretty frightening, isn't it? it's infuriating too, but the truth is even worse is real, uses its tech prominence to sell its occupation of palestine to the world and its dominance of the narrative to social media companies. it's not an accident that if you post a pro palestinian comment or story on facebook or publish

a pro palestinian tweet, and algorithm will either keep people from seeing it. or perhaps we'll just delete it altogether. a we're going to talk about all this with a journalist who has covered this issue for years and who recently wrote a highly acclaimed book about it. anthony lowenstein, is the author of the book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world? anthony, welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thanks so much for having me, john. anthony, i want to begin with something that you wrote about yourself in this book. you happen to be jewish and like many of us who follow and have studied and lived in the middle east, you long supported a 2 state solution. you've reported on israel for nearly 25 years. and over the course of those 25 years after having lived in east jerusalem, you've changed your mind about some of these big issues. tell us about that. i grew up in australia in melvin, in

a liberal zine this time. and so those who don't know what that means essentially is rose on the center of my life or the family's life. but i'm my family will holocaust survivors. most of my family were killed in the holocaust in europe. and the 2nd, the ones that go down, escape for everybody to get a visa, really 1939, literally before the war began. so straight in canada, u. s. u k. and when i was growing up in the seventy's, really israel was saying as a safe haven, it was a place that god forbid something happens again to jews. we can go there. and for those who don't know as a g u, i can go to israel tomorrow. and if i can prove that my family is jewish, and my mother is jewish, i can be and he's rarely citizen, we can see mounts cause tell us the names, do not have that same rise. and that's the reason why i've never taken up these relative citizenship often, but the fee is i believe, i guess in these riddles right to exist as a jewish state. i was pretty easy parents to be honest. and i was growing up, palestinians didn't really exist. i didn't make pulse names, i didn't speak to palestinians. i constantly heads immunization of palestinians by,

by my family and the why the jewish community that was super coming back then it's still coming. now though it is changing as i talk about in the book and elsewhere, and i think for years i saw the 2 state solution was the so called accepted view. that's what we should supply. busy at the time i was, i've been reporting there for about 20 years since about 2005 visiting there. every fee is reporting from israel, the west bank and gaza room between 20162020. i was living with my partner in east jerusalem as a jealous, there was a journalist. and i think of a time you start to realize 2 things. one, the 2 sites solution was always a mirage. that there was never really any intention on these rally side to equally divide the land a and b. that the idea of a 2 state solution and maintaining and julie state is by definition, disagreement. tell you what i mean by that is that, and i said this in various other places, including in the book my issue with a jewish state. it's not because it's the jewish,

per se. my issue is equally was the human to majority state or christian majority state of muslim majority site. in fact, in the book i took a lot of that. what prime minister nobody is doing in india to transform that country into what he can do, fund a mental explanation, which is a deeply disturbing aspect. so, but a jewish stays, discriminates against non duty. that is what he's rel down. so if you on view, if you are treated as a 2nd cost citizen, so familiar, one state solution is the most equitable, just outcome. what was it that made you interested in tech? did that happen after you arrived in israel? and more importantly, when and how did you become interested in this invasive kind of tech that's been coming out of israel for the past 20 years or so? look, i've been looking at these issues in a way for a while and not particularly displayed these relevant. obviously post 911 is bring this explosion nicely from the us and the k. but also in the end user, i'm going to close also from china and other countries, china as well. so it's not unique to the west of using modern technology to surveil

people to monitor them to track them. and israel is the come on the global leaders in this. so when i was looking at this, he's a guy that particularly when i was living there, i became much more aware of some vehicles that were meant, the pegasus, which is the, in from a spyware. that is riley company made by and its own group, but you can put onto your phone was put onto your iphone or android, and you don't even know it's there and you can be surveilled and mtv quit us. it's used by dozens and dozens of countries, and the book talks quite a lot about that. the pegasus is literally the tip of the iceberg. and one of the things i look at in the book really is that so many of the tools and technologies that israel's been using a tested 1st on palestinians in palestine. so tell us the names since you gave me p . cuz one of the things that i saying the book is, and one level the us to this, the, me rock in afghanistan. i mean, i do this in vietnam as well that these areas become testing grounds for new weapons. i mean, the current war and ukraine that russia launched against the crime last year. you have candles, radicals right now, in the old times,

the financial times talking openly about how the us is testing weapons this, giving them so ukrainians or selling and so you craniums and the testing them and talking about high tech weaponry drawings, etc. so in one level, what these roles doing is not the only nation that does it. the difference is that israel has a ready made occupied population on it's those that the half a century is the longest occupation in modern times, $56.00. he is now in counting and huge amounts of high tech, width and rate in the model and age spyware. drones faction, recognition technology, biometric data. and these are used in the way initially to track and maintain the occupation to cape palestinians under control. and now what's happening to what's been going for decades, as i saw in the book, they started well before 911. and it's massively accelerated since $911.00. is it? israel really has become one of the global leaders in not just high, it's

a weapon rate, but in the industry, it's now the times biggest and still live in the world. can compete with the u. s. u. s. remains number one must make you proud. they're about 40 percent of the world's weapons comes in the us nominations, so weapons as well. russia, france. so it's not just these route, but these are also tense because i still live in the world where he's real east number one, or 2 is spyware. so high tech surveillance and someone's find no other forms of communication. so i was fascinated by that, but particularly the genesis of that technology, which is coming from palestine on palestinians and how israel is, therefore, marketing that as federal tested, they woods on palestinians to a global market. that's desperate for democracies and dictatorships. i find that over a 130 countries in the world, so the majority of nations on the planet had bought some of the phone with his riley, repressive technology. so it's pretty remarkable reco and for a tiny nation in the middle east. i don't want to sound cynical or

a conspiratorial, but what's the purpose of these really tech industry, always national security? was it always to use against the palestinians and in what amount to is really intelligence operations? well, israel has always claimed that what they doing is some national security, that they're protecting themselves against an enemy of the palestinians in palestine. all the neighbors who at times yes, of undeniably being aggressive against these route. but i think that's it as a me. so what i mean by that is that pretty much, not from the 1st day, but from the fifty's. then these were, i was founded in 1948. so pretty much within a decade of israel's the, the latest supervision rel, realized i had to make friends down the one hand, a new nation. that makes sense. you have to make friends, i understand that. but that was often made for stealing. and what's happening in the last decades particularly accelerated off to 1967. when these rel occupied the westbank galleries to islam and the golan heights,

is that they found that there was a very interested ready made market around the world. who would see pertain as i show extensively in the book for these kinds of dental tested weapons. so for example, in the us back, daddy was enlightened in south america in the seventy's and eighty's. that history is relatively well 9 to an extent, a 100 years columbia and others that were designated by us backed more crimes backs across by local forces. what's less, 9? is it israel was a key player in those was, these are all of them was training. those countries that we're offering them that were funding them. and i show extensively in the book that many of these countries, even in times of the us could not fund certain nations, will cries because of some lucky and congress, even at those points. who was there is ro, israel came in and was happy to provide those weapons. so in that extent,

i think in all the israel across in america are being closer is arouse existence that i think really deepened in the seventy's when somebody's israel became america's we man, i say very much in that sense. and that hasn't really changed the spot, the rhetoric you now hear sometimes from bite and about how he's very concerned about is really settlements. americans pushed it towards the israel, hasn't changed at all. and in fact, during the trump era, in some ways that was found more honest, i'd say that it's just a simple editor, trump at all. i think trump is a danger on many levels, but trump is on his trump said, i don't really care about the palestinians. i don't really care what they think, what they want, where and vague with these ro and full of presidents and the current president kind of give this idea that were even handed. you know, they even handled the support. these are all just be honest about then trump accelerated those trip. those trends already happening long before he came into office. so you're actually on national security is given as a reason for what he's round does, but in fact, israel has used the occupation as an incredibly effective marketing tool in some

ways to get huge amounts of friends around the world. kind of transactional friendship by selling massive amounts of weaponry. anthony, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we'll ask author anthony lowenstein about how is real use. this is tech industry to spy on friends, enemies. and everybody in between states and. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power of tired vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this,

but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the welcome back to the whistle blowers i'm going to reaku. we're speaking with author anthony lowenstein, about his outstanding new book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world? good to have you with us, anthony. thanks again for joining us. pause. let's get into some of the specifics that you discussed in this book. you open it with an absolutely awful story about a t land, jewish family by the name of silberman. i wasn't surprised by the tragedy behind the story, which i'll ask you to relate to our viewers in a moment. but i was very surprised to learn that israel was working with the military junta, led by general goose to pino shay. tell us about the silver man's what happened to

them and about is really involvement in the g lane crew and it's bloody aftermath to 50 years ago in 1973. there was a clue against the end a, the democratically elected leader of sheila and was backed by the us and other nations to support initiated, dictated for years now. it's relatively now in the us role of the documents. we still don't know the actual great extent of us support for the could. what's less, 9 months less. and i in fact is these riley support. now i didn't sign the book that israel was a k factoring over throwing a and a they want. but what is important to note that that would definitely a play in supporting the could they supported elements of peanut chaise raising. they sold weapons to, to lay of the, to the point. whereas i have in the book, the classified ca documents which show that at various points off to the could the biggest provider of ions to july was not in america. it was a 0,

it was israel for years. so that's part of the story. the story outside of a cabin, the book is really about a guy who lives in is around now, daniel silverman, whose father was killed by pina chaise. dogs essentially and his family was in sheila, his father was captured soon after the code in prison. and what they felt was after a while released, but in the end was what was released, but then killed by finish. i sags and to this day, daniel, who lives in israel now has no idea whose family has no idea with the bodies. i have no real record of anything and this, this is the legacy in some ways of what happened in 1973. and the reason that our accountants in the book not from lovely just as history less than the cost that's part of it, is lead to detail. he is. and how does attempts to uncover what israel was doing and she liked hearing that she is the us in the same role was clear,

it was studies can't kissinger and others. but he's been trying for years, unsuccessfully, and my dad for these reli supreme court to try the wrong kind of what the hell is role was doing it. what were they doing? who with a supporting, what would they backing? who would they funding? who would they? i mean, we know the general outlines and i have in the book and degree of declassified documents, the dates out of that. but a lot of that we still don't know. and daniel, and these are all with his friends and colleagues, have bayne stone, little time and time and time again. so that somebody was being pulled into that store. a lot of people have read the book. one of the things that really struck me was people telling me about that story, but many, many others, lot of people just did not realize that profound extent of these riley complicity in some of the 20th and 21st century. it's nice to greatness abuses. it's much more 9 on the left with all parts on the right to i guess of american complicity in name and dictator. and the last $5070.00 is it's 9. some of the details are still

unclear to be show what solid less 9 is riley complicity, and i can least i won't go into all the details, but huge amounts of complicity on my list. some of the books i briefly, literally during the rwandan genocide, these are all was selling weapons to the real ones in raising in a more recent time. this got exposed a few weeks ago. they'll have some details about this in the book as well. i mean, uh which the un sound was committing genocide against its range. the muslim population off to the genocide off the the could in me, in my, our fees like a israel was selling weapons to the, to latest off to the, to after the genesis. now, i'm outside of the only nation the will to does that. the reason i put this sort of stuff in the book is so much of media framing is well rusher and trying to sell a whole format as a weapon. city type of ships around the world, which they do as to the americans, of course. but the difference is when it's find in the media rusher in china,

also bad america, israel noble and good. next. really? that's nonsense. the ons industry by definition is ongoing and yeah. rusher and trying to sell a lot of also weapons around the world. no one's denying that. i mean the evidence and that's i have a well me as does america, america does it on the 5 biggest scale, but what's solid, less known as these riley um, stealing around the well the some of these awful dictated shapes and why they doing it. sometimes in partnership with us and sometimes not. and that's probably what the book tries to expose. we've read about myriad scandals internationally over the past year where pegasus software has been used to spy on politicians, on world leaders. and even on average citizens, a pegasus scandal nearly brought down the greek government in just one example. what can you tell us about pegasus surveillance software? who uses it and why it is become so prevalent? and i note that in the book you say that israel has always made sales to despotic regimes. like burma, so hard toes,

indonesia and apartheid era. south africa are countries like that still in business with israel. yes. the short answer is yes. of course. the pods of africa is now over, it is now a democratic regime and so that's a good whether it's this, i could be still a positive, it can only composite. i would suggest against this black population. look not much, has changed. what has changed. i think these would be the great to public scrutiny, and the reason i talk about tickets is, is probably the sale of a lot of people reading the book who may have heard of peg assistance, got a bit of pressing the last fees around the world. and what's less understood a value, this is what i want to say. it's often framed as this rogue is riley company selling also technology to re james good and bad, raging cycle. good and bad. the market that democratic and despotic and fidelity to underwear. this can be put onto your fine without you knowing there's no way you would know it's on them. let's see, it's forensically checked. so essentially it's a silence width and which is put onto your iphone or android. everything on your

site and can be viewed or accessed your camera, your microphone, your photos, your e mails, information about your loved ones. so girlfriend, boyfriend would collect whatever it may be. and one of the things that challenged in the book is sorry much, so the media coverage in the last year is focused on pegasus. and that's an important subject. and i get me wrong talking about the chapter in the book of that . but what's missing about send lots of these coverages, the inside group which is the company behind it, is not some road company. it's an i'm of the states. it's an of these rather the government. so it's what i mean by that is yes, it's a private company to show it's got a board and it has makes profits dislike lockheed martin and reyes on day. but to me this is very similar. located mountains, a private company. yes. but located mountain is used by the us as an on of the state. it's been used like that for decades like ray a phone has been as well. they use as an um to certain foreign policy agendas of

the us and ministration might have. it's exactly the same as well. so what i show in the book is remarkable, storing the last 10 years when it's in yahoo. the seemingly never ending is riley prime minister. and the most ad, these riley intelligence go around the well to regimes they wanted refrain. i'm talking about india rolanda, you a, and they hold pegasus out as a diplomatic care of essentially saying, you want to be friends with us. we want to be friends with you. we will sell you. it is amazingly powerful spyware. we don't want to assume any questions about where it's going. he using it again, so maybe selling it to you a you're pretty sure it's going to go against this it in so active as human rights workers. i mean we're 10 is relatives, we would like for example, you divide a certain way and the un, this is how it works. so what i've shown in the book this in yahoo will the most site visits, say hungry india, rolanda you a and within 6 or 12 months pegasus,

he's in use against critics in those countries. now, you could argue that's not a 100 percent evidence, but this is how it works. is how it works that as well as selling this equipment as a diplomatic carrot to say we will help you refresh your writing paper fee, but the fee befriend us in that kind of transactional way and pegasus really, john is the tip of the iceberg. i signed the book, loved the media attention is going on pegasus, which is back on the companies that happy about because they're doing exactly the same thing, like mostly tension. and one of the real things is falling on this point is that the real disturbing aspect of this industry is actually unregulated. there is no regulation around the spiral industry in the last fi, some view as months. so hang on a 2nd, didn't president biden sanction these companies? in fact, he did. yes. and the last few years bite and comes into office. the sanctions and it's over now the face of a do you think one that seems great. america is working out to human rights. brilliant. what you, what he's not regularly said,

is it this to me is nothing about sanctioning human rights abuses about america. and i talked about this a lot in the book. america is annoyed that as well as taking the business, they're angry about the fact that american spyware companies are being superseded by as riley spyware companies more the us is trying to do by sanction is riley ones, is to give a leg up to the american ones at the moment, israel is probably number one or 2 in the global spyware industry. america is not and is united you on america does not like nothing. number was not a big fan of the number one, even in the study weapons. so i say by then sanctioning of these riley spyware companies, as a way to try to assist american spyware companies to cancel the rise of these riley, spyware firms. and so far, it's not working particularly well. to be honest, you make a bowl declarative statement in the book that i couldn't agree with more. you say

that literally everything changed for these really tech and military industry on september 11th, 2001. the change may have begun with the 1991 gulf war. can you tell us what you meant by that statement and can you quantify for us what those changes have been? you know, on the day after 911 mentioned yahoo, who was not prime minister then was interviewed on american survey. and i have is quite in the book, in a sense like the american tv act house, guys, what are your thoughts a? so the last thing is, is, right? so i'm, and i'm paraphrasing here. says it's a great for res route. and the high switch looks like so what are you talking about screaming quite serious row. now what he explained, i mean, not particularly well, but what he meant was the well to finally understand what these rails been dealing with for decades. this was the narrative, is ro, southern there are, these guys has been fighting a war on terror for decades of gainesville, for muslim terrorists. so the argument goes, now america will understand,

then you're going to join us as, as ease row, to fight. that's similar to what i mentioned y'all who was ross. he was absolutely correct on that, that i talk about this low in the book that so much of the actions and rhetoric of the us post 911 was copied from these riley playbook. that wasn't exactly the same, but it was very similar like use route to fix a decent living on effect in the eighty's when names i lived on, 9th, 92. and it's sort of loading the book about how is rel, use certain language and behavior. collateral damage, this is the word that was thought to be used by these riley's long before the americans started using it extensively. and to me, thank you so much for joining us. i learned a lot. thank you so much for having me, john. it's been great. and thank you to our viewers for taking the time to watch the great american patriot and founding father thomas paine said the government, even in its best state, is a necessary evil in its worst states. it's an intolerable one. what is

a person to do when the government takes the side of evils? we don't really have the answer to that question, but it's certainly something to ponder. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. aku, we'll see you next time the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 of the,

[000:00:00;00] the civilians sheltering and hospitals in northern gods caught in the crossfire between the idea and how much it generates fuel about someone else. the lives of hundreds of patients are risk tens of thousands of civilians, the fleet, the southern, gaza admitted humanitarian crisis following israel's bombardment of inc claims. no . we have from a local journalist who's among the dislikes here in the search, find the finding and hope we can find a safe place over there in the south. and what's believed to be the largest rally