the, the civilian sheltering and hospitals in northern godsa are caught in the crossfire between the id f and come up with generator fuel about to run out and the lives of hundreds of patients are at rest. tens of thousands of civilians to lee the southern gaza. i met a humanitarian crisis, calling israel from bard meant that the on site north political journalist is among the display of the precinct suffering here in the living god. this truth finding water, finding click, just as the fight in film and hopefully be kind retail 5, a safe place over there in the south. and what believes to be the largest rally and support of dogs to attract for on $800000.00 protesters in central london,

demanding a ceasefire. those are the top stories we're following here at r t international ibex on world. the part of scientists takes of her guess about whether really to see changes can bring an end to the bloodshed and retaliation and goals, things of holding on the the, the welcome to world support in all amber hammock religions deport personality of pilots isn't major tenant engineers is no exception. in fact, according to the tunic interpretation, the 2nd time for was destroyed exactly as

a punishment for virtue, just hatred, which was again just to be driving a bounce in the middle east. because religious or perhaps political ideas offered any response from the bloodshed and retaliation engulfing the colon. we'll discuss it. i'm now joined by rumsey, the room with a non resident senior research follow at the center for as long and global affairs at east timble design university. dr. barton with it's great to talk to thank you very much for being available. essentially for having that look to be rude. i just use this term, the holy lands, which many people today associated with the state of israel. but historically, as i'm sure, you know, if it refers to the entire area between the media to rainy and see on the eastern bank of the jordan river, which includes the palestine. this is where i want to start. what is palestine to you at this point? because it's not the stage, and yet it's not fully devoid allstate structures or a phantom of

a state. so what is it? so of course that has to be is how this time was on its way to becoming a nation state in the modern sense. but there was a destruction that has happened, particularly when britain in 1917, also would be sunk on the bus for declaration on the bus for promise, has granted, as well to design this movement as in doing so, creating this destruction in the historical cycle at this time was becoming a state like all those states in the region. but that date and the events that i'm reading today quite yourself is well between 19171948. change this dynamics entirely. so it'd be more than palestinian state. and the more than a studio struggle is really essentially a political struggle, not the religious struggle, the age of correcting the course of history,

the baby to because of the british colonial has a empower response and it's inception. and the grand thing of i respond to these i just moment in the after years and it was there is this expression hope dies last and it's usually interpreted as something very aspirational. and the other thing, it also reflects the very dark connection between whole and death because a promise was realization is denied continuously is bound to leave, to the very opposite of hope, which is range, malice, despair, revenge. how much do you think this spend that cold have to do with what's happening in, in gaza today? right, so there has really been periods an hour just to even watch icons, you know, there. indeed there was this kind of collective sense of despair. and this collective sense of despair fully political promises the foothill, for example,

after the madrid negotiations in 1991 after the also of course in 1993. this problem is that everything is going to be ok. our people are going to be ok, is we always start building supplements and there would be a palestinian state and to even make it more difficult for that's good. yes. this palestinian hope is that they gave us enough symbols slab an accident and some membership as various international distribution. so we're national team became an actual football team that is competing and the one in big so so for the, so on. and that kind of body with that sense of hope is indeed something real tangible is happening. by default political point to view the exact opposite has happened, the number of jewels 2nd mess. tribble, the number appears to be a skilled triple. the number of books on the door set was moved to the westbank. contrary to international law has increased initially,

so that you'll have this kind of a power. all we gotta use where we are feeding on hope. nothing is really happening on the ground and that the sense of despair that we have seen you are the 2nd the father and the suicide bombing put on me in the number. do you think that was a conscious strategy or do you think that it was, you know, something you know, they into hard reality that not facilitating the finding of, of a compromise because americans like to say that, you know, perception is reality increasing. there wasn't a conscious attempt to create that perception while denying, realize it reality or do you think that just the way history develop is a sort of a former nothing that's or and we know that because for, for rational reasons, i mean, you can't find settlements. and legal stuff, events, you'll count funds because what you need me to tell you was $3800000000.00 a year. and at the same time, still the most sd of rights in the areas that are being appropriated by the

southern or the industry and people's right to exist while you are funding the very minute. sorry, that's just the volume them that that's right interest. so there was obviously something political and it was a perception that the americans were trying to market the americans. i'm very good with brandy. so they really created as brand as the sword, thus brand. and they decided the agree with this. but as you are a radical, your a total was some, besides or your and to american have your don't. one piece was also the, are actual statements made by the lives of uh, what is the law school example? who was uh, the, uh, uh, an adviser, adviser diploma. is what department and start out al. sure. who, who made it very clear in 2005, that we are studying palestinians, the idea that there would be a state and there would be no, there won't be no stay. there will be a peace process. but to the contrary, what we are trying to say, and this is what you mean, the apologies necessary,

not only interpretation, we want to look at a stimulus on a die if you said, but we don't want to kill them. i think for anyone who has even the most basic understanding of collective psychology, it's pretty obvious that guys, it has become a very dangerous human experiment because it is bound to produce radicalism and resistance. and so i think given terrorism as a, as a natural way of opposing a person who cannot deny dignity to, you know, it's a successive generations of people for it, way too long. i mean, then i wonder what do you think these railey and perhaps the western leadership counted on? do they truly believe in your view that they can sort of seal these problem off in their her medic, fashion 2 things. number one is what you guys are living in the cities. the media that you have on media is what you the media is how the different people are unaware. like for example, the whole, the term,

that's what happened. october 7 was an approval. the actually have internalized is the the me that made on the spring that's holds your patient now. part time sieges mass because coming was biden's the united nation instead of 2020 to was the most by the if you're the west texas to, to 2000 on this they give back again. it is a 2023 by june. it was the most violent view of the west bank since 2005 draws a don't want me to a different story because it has already been declared up in habitable by the united nations. is them years ago. but in the minds of the is what it is because of the propaganda, the husband is where you need it. it's completely unprovoked. we have no idea why these people hate us so much. that's a problem in the american media is a different story. in the american media, they have established this connection with what she is doing as well. is it a great democracy? the only democracy in the middle east? and that is real? it presents the hopes and dreams of the great western civilization. and they are

fighting a war against islam it turns. and there's no difference between isis and how much and so forth and so on. so the americans have a different today or of indoctrination that makes them have blind at least made the same media and government go crazy blind to the apply for the palestinian over the course of 75 years. now this 75 here is living under conditions. most of us would recognize as highly dramatic. i think there is no dispute about it. it's a, it's bound to produce collective trauma. but may i ask you to our hypothetical question here because it's easy to blame. you through the americans in the west, but do you think the so called the allies or supporters of the palestinian people would actually impracticality welcome a workable solution because when you deal with so many people who have been troubled psychologically economically logistically in all the possible ways do you think the neighbors of palestine would actually one to st free um, existing as a,

as a state. right, so there are 2 different types of neighbors, all kind of studies, most very good neighbors. i don't want to go into specifics to and you know, to distract from the conversation. but these are the american olives and the war of the agenda to accommodate 2 elements. number one, the don't want too much trouble amongst their own people. the holes, maybe even minutes a cause and there's some serious spears. i think couple of these are confused. there is some way that there can be a mandatory quote. in spite of studios are continued to be slow, so that the site, but they will also wanting to accommodate the american tasks and they want to stay on the what side of washington, the really my, their own risk. i mean like in practical terms, that will also understandable this is a valid political motivation. that's why i'm asking the same question. do you think they actually won the resolution of the palestinian nature? because as in humane as it seems right now, it seems to be keeping believe in place and making sure that the region is not

troubled anymore. then i think it's kind of depends what's kinda on the kind of solution we're talking about in spanish, to me as are in, in the rented a minimal definition of justice as you know, kind of city of state that may be a step towards a future or above, so the ration or, or one state where people can follow, come and go have freedom, have political rights can vote. i don't see why this would be a problem for jordan or egypt, or anyone to the contrary is going to open up the space for not just for socio economic equality in the region. what's for economic prosperity as well? the americans have the piece to all of this. the americans don't want to do it, even though it actually by not doing it in this. the region of the americans wants table, but they're not doing it because there's a far, wide government and as well. and that is what you just don't want any cause and

visit lucian. that seems contrary to whatever ultimate goal they haven't thought of, but now you have reason. recently, the one take away from this crisis is the guy that has ended, the secretary of the war in the, in the middle is that, you know, regardless of whether people are sunni, identify the as a sunni or she or they tend to support the and the policy and cost it down to resent what is being uh, so that would be guys that people are being subjected to do you're seeing that kind of a fact could be lasting and perhaps even game changing because i mean and policies very natural at this point of time but is it enough to move the situation from where it has been for many, many decades assigned to the american program in the middle east is situated with them division, divide and conquer. it's as simple as that. i remember with the americans and vegas the rock in 2003, and they, they intentionally divide it logged into. she has the one so nice only everybody

knows that even though i visited the lot prior to that, and i didn't really see misconduct. step tell your cost that so agree it happening on a daily basis for the 1st time says the american invasion of your walk back then until today. i have not seen, for example, in egypt. soon the protesters chatting the names of housing as well as she either he been is protesters, she approved sisters sending the names of some of the leaders. we're having a business, complete time, you put the number, which is it enough to console and then dot into something tangible into tangible, political solutions that will change the destiny on the policy and people rather than simply being useful political purposes in those in those countries. investors struggle and that's the struggle, and that's what we're going to start seeing manifest in the coming era, the americans. and this is what you use and the allies want the region to be pro.

is that exactly where it is? because it's of interest. there is another town hall as well. uh, yeah. man, uh, palestine specific sections of the society of elsewhere that is trying to create a new political part of going on. i think the outcome of this part of the is going to change that you on ethics of the music use itself, but also the music is visa, be your political actors, whether be a restaurant site, that's up to you and i'll look what we're looking for. let me stop you right here. we will talk about how exactly that could manifest in a couple of minutes. but for now, stay tuned. the

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welcome back towards the portsmouth ramsey by route and residence senior research follow as a center for as long on global affairs at symbols. i'm university, dr. berlin, before the break we started talking about dan, mary control and this whole conflict. and you wrote recently that the guys that issue has become quite a liability for the vitamin ministration. and the democratic party more broadly that this rhetorically sacred bond between israel and the united states is becoming more of a jewel political bondage. uh for the americans. do you seeing that this inner fresher, or they just come for the bond and administration may still on the issue, may lead to some converse pressure on the, not in the whole government because let's face it, the americans can be previous roof. less even than that on allies, one their own american interests are affected on are so many moving pieces here as well, is now going back to the status of the client's reaching, which is really interesting. this is

a conversation we've had regarding the music is for many years is with all the clients with gym or is the as they say that team is lacking, is wagging the dog. and i think there's a struggle now we're still in israel. it's so are afraid, and they have been saying this out loud, including i come are be viewing others within the rights we or far right government that we are going back to that kind of stuff is where the america's telling us was due to the are those who are still insisting that israel has not lost it's political power, influence and credibility, and we made our own decisions. so i think one of the moving pieces is that what it is, what you just find himself going back to the 19 and he hasn't even earlier or the americans. steve is what you do policies in the middle east, or when they continue. this new empowered up towards where they are to decide those are the words of george

w bush back in the day. so that's one of the pieces. the other one is how will this more affect that relationship between the democratic party, especially the rank and file with the needs who are still very kind of die hard supporters of color the we are going to see this thing coming elections. and we are beginning to see changes happening in terms of numbers, especially with younger democratic voters who are making goals and palestine and showing their perception of bite. and now, uh, i'm joining you from most crime here in russia. we have this cliche, the americans are always trying to impose their solutions on to everybody else. but in order to impose solutions, you have to have them a full stop. do you think the american, the current, the american administration even has an idea of how they can try to approach this very combustible issue? because if they only want to use it for political purposes, for appearances,

you still need to offer something on the tricia seems to be so dire that it's very hard to understand where even to start the what to exploit. and, and this is one of the unprecedented outcomes of what's happening right now. we've gone to how we feel that that's what took place on october 7th and, and, and, and the legitimacy or lack there are. so the 1st, on many years in which the americans are not the ones who have taken the initiative, we all know now you'll make lands famous, both of the font doctrine and the idea that you just go and you just take advantage of that existing disaster or you can pause when i'm at 5 to leave, organize the pieces to fit your foreign policy. i tried the best find the americans were taken by surprise. as much as that is what it is worth. taking by surprise. but what anthony blinking other american fish on j solid and all the rest are trying to do here. they are pretending that nothing has changed, but they are in fact the ones in charge. the g 7 is holding me things to talk about

the future of garza without time as, as if they have been the ones who created this whole scenario. and the are the only ones who are capable of implementing the outcome of this scenario. and this is the biggest political crisis, i think for the americans in a long time in the middle east. is that those of your yeah, that the that's imposed on them are against the are still trying to kind of show results and the are in charge. but the actual entity, we are no longer the ones in the leadership position and they don't know where the outcome is going to. i want to ask you uh, one of religious or political questions here because uh they have been some recent studies that i read recently. that israel permanent jewish businessman through all the 20th century house, sought to essentially intertwine religious and political discourse. particularly restoring the united states and particularly among the so called zine is christians, making them believe that the 2nd coming of christ is intrinsically linked to the

political state of israel. and um, you know, they and then this is a very, uh, you know, 10 years connection because if people vote in favor of, you know, supporting uh, military and government and in a different land because of, uh, that will view you know, that could create uh, a lot of problems and americans aren't as we know of, you know, still very powerful player. how, when do you think about it? do you think that problem hasn't been given enough attention and the political implications of using the religious and this course for creating support for it is around you and how come us senators, quoting for really just more or saying this is a religious war, is 35 because you're not, no longer talking about so you know, people within that stablish, mental health kind of semester ideas. know your talking about people within government and we know that that is what you guys have already at least the

conclusion that it is that really just warranty made that very clear. and those who are being sold for the rest of us as margaret or students are as soon as weight and positive, they are using very biblical language. as in turning goals are to ashes. eradicating the kind of, i mean tiny, find terrifying that we know that this must be differentiated from the language that is used by, by it is let me put it to go. force as composite is fine. this is quite a complicated issue. i just want to kind of highlight to things, so you sometimes can be used as a ford where you go and destroy and kill in the name of god. and sometimes these can be used as a shield. i receive this with palestinian. what's, who's bought christians? i mean, we have seen a christian last, i mean a christian church, a christian hospital being destroyed, then we have seen that. what do you mean? anything from the christian connecting garza is very face oriented to receive

themselves as well as to be as far as the christian 2nd. so this is different and, and this whole idea of the are actually put fighting religious funds you made to them. the sad reality is the exact opposite. it is also on the bike to or palestinians walk by using this rather just fundamental isn't. and it's, and we are using face as a way to st. stay strong under the harshest of circumstance. now in your work for, for this center uh for islam and global affairs, i'm sure you're quite familiar with this course of how potentially dangerous political is. i'm could be, i mean, a couple of years ago, it was a very popular topic. so do you see any difference between politically is long and let's say political zion is in the, in this particular case? yes, of course. and, and, and here i am i, excluding groups that couldn't be directly or potentially manipulated and used by western governments to see political agendas in syria or elsewhere. not going to talk about these guys. and i, i'm also excluding groups the way those guys,

i usually turn this term is, by the way, i mean, like the prices, for example, wasn't brand of terrorism. even though they were politically as long as in some sense. exactly. i mean, that's the name of the game, you know, you're kind of create, told many people to give the space to set themselves to operate as so save your serve your interest. and at the same time, you dump them with all sorts of things. so in order for you to create this or to present yourself as the savior of humanity by the group such as the like, like how much impact his time and see all those in the region, the or non state actors but the operate with his national bank because they don't footprint beyond national boundaries. so if you don't have a, just this mission deliberate us being you know, and bring the spin back to the baseline, the kingdoms of angels or restore the cane if they are not in any way infested. oregon told them that how the political discourse and unless you understand that

you could easily fall into the trouble. the american propaganda that probably by this time asked how boss is isis, isis is a card and so forth. and so the, a lot of people in the us because they don't allow us to use an honest conversation about these issues in mainstream media. a lot of people are buying into this and they are behaving as indeed how much. and i says, are the same for you, mentioned as bowler and horizons correct me if i'm wrong. but i think his ball of was a pretty much and empowered by the is really campaign against the pillow. where's come? i us is a direct creation. all file for israel, i because, and from what i understand initially it was created as a civil service group and it only through the deck and so far denying dignity into their power. steering and people that it turned into what it turned to do you think there will be any and have to have probably, but the,

at least in toronto analysis on the part of these really special services on american special services about them. you know, the kind of groups that they read and what is actually supporting this resistance among the posting is that it's not about the concrete group, but rather about the conditions on the ground or some guy who's extensive. in fact, i wrote a book about this issue and i the rides i promised, and i wouldn't say it was created as much as it is where it is kind of hard to put bodies, go to a store for the experiments as they continue to doing drugs. in the west bank again by giving you little bit of space for a certain point, it took a rival to grow with the whole degree its function, and they create several more than that sort of thing. but indeed, this is what happened of jamal this let me of this that it was the, the, the kind of the 4 runner of how most in gaza and they were involved in cultural paint, brows. university is hospitals, charities. but when you are dealing with a restaurant, organizational, but any calling is brand new or m e o, o. otherwise,

as that brussel society is part of the struggle against occupation, i guess apartheid naturally the are going to themselves mothers to be part of that movement. so we have the is what it is intended or didn't that, and i really don't think they did a how much has with, on become the main resistance platform for palestine in garza. and in fact, at this point in the west bank as well. now it's thinking about resistance and my question may come across as very arrogant, but i do ask it out of deep emphasis on the same proceed with the palestinian people. because when you leave in the, under the spirit of resistance and in the conditions of occupation for so long, i think the task of governing becomes very challenging. i mean, it's a very challenging right now even for the most um, you know, developing nations. but i assume it's, it's, it's, if wouldn't be a very hard challenge for the people of palestine. do you think they're still

capable of from cooperating and running themselves? no, just resisting the imagine just under the support of the circumstances and goals of government living under total seats. i told a political i solutions managed to actually govern gonzalez under the circumstances . i know it's the, you're not going to talk about the perfect scenario yet. but they actually did manage to govern garza to some extent, under all of this. i think, yes, i think the are more than capable of doing so. but is the external passwords that make sense? so impossible. like right now, 60 percent of goals that has been either 40 or partially destroyed. it is going to take the last number i heard a few days ago. that is going to take about $3000000000.00. but now we might be looking at a 4 or $5000000000.00 to govern garza the to, to bring, want 30 to process a brief 40 to gaza because of the pressure bite as well. and the last stage, how are the, you know,

are going to be responsible for 3 building garza and bring them all this money and, and so just that are capable of doing so. if the external pressures allow good or is up enough for the building of glasses or to take well, the converter within the severe and dark nodes, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today. thank you for having and thank you for watching hope to see her again when it was a part of the