to rebuilding garza and bring all this money and, and so just they are capable of doing so if the external pressures allow good or is up enough for the building of gaza to well the converter with this very dark nodes, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today. thank you for having and thank you for watching hope to see her again. when it was a part of the look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a

robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're so short or is it conflict with the 1st law? show your mind, anticipation. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to great trust, rather than fit the various job with artificial intelligence we have summoning the theme and the robot most protects this phone existence was on the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the error is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools. well we just start with stability and business deals. what does

that mean? the living will not have very good propaganda. you know a price here in your i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask the better the answer is will be the many years ago when i was a brand new c, i a officer, the senior c, i a counter intelligence official warranty about the threats that the united states face from its foreign adversaries. i was told that russia, china and north korea, cuba and iran met harm to us and that their intelligence services were constantly working against us. but it wasn't just those countries that the senior official mentioned. he added that one of the most dangerous countries in the world for americans, and especially for official americans with israel. if anything in the intervening years as far as this real goes,

that's totally gotten worse. i'm john curiosity and welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 israel has one of the most advanced tech industries in the world. that's not a huge surprise. the country has long been a magnet for entrepreneurs. interested in tech development. is really companies frequently partner with international big tech. and these really government generously provide start up funding for new tech companies. more importantly, though, much of the tech development that is real focuses on has multiple uses. it's used to provide blanket surveillance, coverage against palestinians. for example. it's used to infiltrate peace groups or anybody else that the extreme, this right wing is really government themes to be a potential threat. it's used to spy on people all around the world, including people active in the beads or boycott, divest and sanction movement. and it's sold to democracy's dictatorships and

despots all around the world to do with what they will. in early september, i received a call from a former colleague of mine from the c i a. he asked if i had an iphone, which i do any warranty that apple had recently determined that re, israel's notorious pegasus software could breach apple security and that the company would soon send out a patch. i received that patch later in the day, but it confirmed to me with so many of us had already suspected these release can hack into the communications of literally anybody in the world. their technology is that good. that's all pretty frightening, isn't it? it's infuriating to but the truth is even worse is real use it's tech prominence to sell its occupation of palestine to the world. and it's dominance of the narrative to social media companies. it's not an accident that if you post a pro palestinian comment or story on facebook or publisher pro palestinian tweet and algorithm,

we'll either keep people from seeing it. or perhaps we'll just delete it altogether . so we're going to talk about all this with a journalist who has covered this issue for years and who recently wrote a highly acclaimed book about it. anthony lowenstein, is the author of the book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world? anthony, welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thanks so much for having me, john. anthony, i want to begin with something that you wrote about yourself in this book. you happen to be jewish and like many of us who follow and have studied and lived in the middle east, you long supported a 2 state solution. you've reported on israel for nearly 25 years. and over the course of those 25 years after having lived in east jerusalem, you've changed your mind about some of these big issues. tell us about that. i grew up in australia in melvin, in a liberal zine this time. and for those who don't know what that means, essentially, as well as on the center of my life or the family's life, but i,

my family will holocaust survivors. most of my family were killed in the holocaust in europe and the 2nd load. what were the ones that got out escapes where they could get a visa, really 1939 loosely before the war began. so straight in canada, u. s. u k. and when i was growing up in the seventy's really use ro was saying as a safe haven, it was a place that god forbid something happens again to jews. we, i can go there. and for those who don't know as a g u, i can go to these rel tomorrow. and if i can prove that my family is jewish, and my mother is judged, i can be and he's really citizen within a c mounts coast. palestinians do not have that same rise and that's the reason why i've never taken up these rarely citizenship often. but the fee is i believe, i guess in israel's right to exist as a jewish state. i was pretty easy parents to be honest. and i was growing up, tell us the names didn't really exist. i didn't may tell us names. i didn't speak to palestinians. i constantly had immunization of palestinians by my family and the why the jewish community that was super coming back then it's still coming. now

though it is changing, as i talk about in the book and elsewhere, and i think for years i saw a 2 state solution was the so called accepted view. that's what we should support that over time i was, i've been reporting there for about 20 years since about 2005 visiting there. every fee is reporting from israel, the west bank and gaza room between 201620. 20. i was living with my partner in east jerusalem as a general, as there was a journalist. and i think of a time you start to realize 2 things. one, the 2 sites solution was always a mirage, that there was never really any intention on these rally side to equally divide the land a and b. the idea of a 2 state solution and maintaining and julie state is by definition discriminatory . what i mean by that is that, and i said this and various other places, including in the book my issue with a jewish state. it's not because it's jewish parasite. my issue is equally with a human to majority state or christian majority stayed on muslim majority side

instruct. in the book i took a lot of that. what prime minister nobody is doing in india to transform that country. and so he can do fund of mental this nation, which is a deeply disturbing aspect so, but the jewish stays, discriminates against non use, that is what he's rel down. so if you're not view issue, i traded as a 2nd cost citizen. so familiar, one state solution is the most equitable just outcome. what was it that made you interested in tech? did that happen after you arrived in israel? and more importantly, when and how did you become interested in this invasive kind of tech that's been coming out of israel for the past 20 years or so? look, i've been looking at these issues in a way for a while and not particularly display these relevant. obviously post 911 has been this explosion, mostly from the u. s. and the k, but also in the end user, i'm going to close also from china and other countries, china as well. so it's not unique to the west of using modern technology to surveil people to monitor them to track them. and israel is the come on the global leaders

initially, when i was looking at this, he's a guy that particularly when i was living there, i became much more aware, some vehicles that remained the pegasus, which is the in from the spyware. that is riley company made by in his own group, but you can put onto your fine once put onto your iphone or android, and you don't even know it's there and you can be surveilled and mtv quit us. it's used by dozens and dozens of countries, and the book talks quite a lot about that. the pegasus is literally the tip of the iceberg. and one of the things i look at in the book really is that so many of the tools and technologies that israel's been using a tested 1st on palestinians in palestine. so tell us the names since the guinea pigs. and one of the things that i say in the book is, and one level the us did this in the rock and afghanistan. i mean, i do this in vietnam as well, that these areas become testing grounds for new weapons. i mean, the current war and ukraine that russia launched against the crime last year. you have candles, radicals right now in new york times new financial times, talking openly about how the us is testing weapons this,

giving them to the cranium. so selling and so you craniums and the testing that we're talking about, high tech weaponry drawings, etc. so in one level, what these role is doing is not the only nation that does it. the difference is that israel has already made occupied population on it's dose that the only other half a century is the longest occupation in modern times, $56.00. he is now in counting and huge amounts of high tech width and rating the model and age spyware, drawings, facial recognition, technology, biometric data. and these are used in the way initially to track and maintain the occupation to cape palestinians under control. and now what's happening to what's been going for decades, as i saw in the book, they started well before 911. and it's a mess of like celebrated since $911.00 is it is around really has become one of the global leaders in not just high tech weapon rate, but in the industry. it's now the tense, biggest. let's do you live in the world. can't compete with the us us remains

number one must make you proud. they're about 40 percent of the world's weapons comes in the us and on the nation. so weapons as well, russia, france. so it's not just these route. but these are also tense because i'm still live in the world where he's real east number one, or 2 is spyware. so high tech surveillance and someone's find all the forms of communication. so all assessing that a by that, but particularly the genesis of that technology, which is coming from palestine on palestinians and how israel is, therefore, marketing that as a federal tested they woods on palestinians to a global market. that's desperate for democracies and dictatorships. i find that over a 130 countries in the world, so the majority of nations on the planet had bought some of the phone with his riley, repressive technology. so it's pretty remarkable rankel in for a tiny nation in the middle east. i don't want to sound cynical or a conspiratorial, but what's the purpose of these really tech industry,

always national security? was it always to use against the palestinians and in what amount to is really intelligence operations? well, israel has always claim that what they doing is from national security, that they're protecting themselves against an enemy of the palestinians in palestine, all the neighbors who at times yes of undeniably being aggressive against israel. but i think that spit as a me. so what i mean by that is that pretty much, not from the 1st day, but from the fifty's. and he's real, was founded in 1948. so pretty much within a decade of these rails, but the latest supervision around realize i had to make friends down the one hand, a new nation that makes sense. you have to make friends, i understand that, but that was often made for stealing. and what's happening in the last decades particularly accelerated off to 1967. when these rel occupied the west bank as a resource for them in the golan heights, is that they found that there was a very interested ready made market around the world. who would super came as i

show extensively in the book for these kinds of dental tested weapons? so for example, in the us back, daddy was in latin in south america in the seventy's and eighty's. the history is relatively well 9 to an extent, a 100 years, columbia and others that were designated by us back more crimes, back to cost by local forces. what's the less 9? is it, israel was a key player when those was, these are all off on was training, those countries that we're offering them, that were funding them. and i show extensively in the book that in many of these countries, even in that time is that the us could not fund certain nations will cries because of some lucky and congress, even at those points. who was there is ro, israel came in and was happy to provide those weapons. so in that extent, i think in the israel, across, in america are being closer is arouse existence. but that i think really deepened

in the seventy's when somebody's israel became america's wing. man, i say very much in that sense and that hasn't really changed the spot, the rhetoric you now hear sometimes from bite and about how he's very concerned about is really settlements. america's positive towards these role hasn't changed at all. and in fact, during the trump era, in some ways that was found more honest, i'd say that it's just a simple under trump at all. i think trump is a danger on many levels, but trump is on his trump said, i don't really care about the palestinians. i don't really care what they think, what they want. where in bed, with these ro and full of presidents in the current president kind of give this idea that we're even handed, you know, they even handed you support as well. just be honest about then trump accelerated. that's true. the trends already happening long before he came into office. so you're right, john. never security is given as a reason to what he's round does, but in fact, he's ralph has used the occupation as an incredibly effective marketing tool in some ways to get huge amounts of friends around the world. kind of transactional

friendship by selling massive amounts of weaponry. anthony, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we'll ask author anthony lowenstein about how is real use is it's tech industry to spy on friends, enemies. and everybody in between states and the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the welcome back to the list of lawyers and john to reaku. we're speaking with author anthony lowenstein, about his outstanding new book, the palestine laboratory. how is real exports, the technology of occupation around the world? good to have you with us. and to me, thanks again for joining us. pause a. so let's get into some of the specifics that you discussed in this book. you open it with an absolutely awful story about a t land jewish family by the name of silberman. i wasn't surprised by the tragedy behind the story, which i'll ask you to relate to our viewers in a moment. but i was very surprised to learn that israel was working with the military junta,

led by general goose to piano. she tell us about the silver man's what happened to them and about is really involvement in the g lane crew. and it's bloody aftermath . 50 years ago in 1973, there was a q against the end, a, the democratically elected later or 2, and was backed up by the us and other nations to support initiated, dictated for years. now it's relatively now in the us role of the documents, we still don't know the actual great extent of us support for the co. what's less, 9 months less. and i in fact is these riley support. now i didn't sign the book. the israel was a k factoring over throwing a and a they want. but what is important to note that that would definitely a play in supporting the could they supported elements of being a chaise raising they sold weapons to, to lay of the, to the point. whereas i have in the book, the classified ca documents which show that at various points off to the could the

biggest provider of ions to july was not in america. it was a 0, it was israel for years. so that's part of the story. the story outside of a cabin, the book is really about a guy who lives in these around now. daniel silverman, whose father was killed by penalized dogs essentially. and his family was in sheila, whose father was captured soon after the code in prison. and what they felt was after a while released, but in the end was what was released, but been killed by pernicious dogs. and to this day, daniel, who lives in israel now has no idea of his family as no i the with the bunny hughes, i have no real record of anything. and this, this is the legacy in some ways of what happened in 1973. and the reason that our accountants in the book not from lovely just as history less know the cost that's part of it is late to detail. he is. and how those attempts to uncover what israel was doing and she lied. hearing that she is the us, as i said,

role was clear up, it was sluggish, kept kissinger and others. but he's been trying for years, unsuccessfully amada, through these really supreme court to try to uncover what the hell these role was doing it. what were they doing? who was i supporting? what would they backing? who with a funding, who with the army? we know the general outlines, and i haven't the book and degree of declassified documents the detail of that. but a lot of that we still don't know. and daniel, and these are all with his friends and colleagues, have bayne stone, little time, and time and time again. so that somebody was being pulled into that store. a lot of people have read the book. one of the things that really struck me was people telling me about that story. but many, many others. while the people just did not realize that profound extent of these riley complicity in some of the 20th and 21st century is nice. the great disabuse is. it's much more 9 on the left. but all parts on the right to i guess, of american complicity in the name of the dictator in the last 5070 is it's 9. some

of the details are still unclear to be show what solid less 9. this is riley complicity. and i can least, i won't go into all the details, but huge amounts of complicity in my list. some of the books i briefly, literally during the rwandan genocide, he's ro, was selling weapons to the real ones in the regime. in a more recent time, this got exposed a few weeks ago though i have some details about this in the book as well. i mean, uh which the un sound was committing genocide against its range muslim population. off to the genocide after the could in main matter fees like israel was selling weapons to the, to latest off to the, to and after the agenda. so i now i'm outside of the only nation the will to does that. the reason i put this sort of stuff in the book is so much of media framing is well rusher and trying to sell a whole format as a weapon. city type of ships around the world, which they do as to the americans of course. but the different states limits find in the media rusher and china,

also bad america. israel noble and good. next really? that's nonsense. the alms industry, by definition is ongoing and near rusher and trying to sell a lot of all for weapons around the world. no one's denying that i mean the evidence and that's i have a well me as does america, america does it on the 5 biggest scale, but what's solid list known as these riley um, stealing around the well the some of these awful dictated shapes and why they doing it sometimes in partnership with us and sometimes not. and that's probably what the book tries to expose as we've read about myriad scandals internationally over the past year where pegasus software has been used to spy on politicians on world leaders. and even on average, citizens of pegasus scandal nearly brought down the greek government in just one example. what can you tell us about pegasus surveillance software? who uses it and why it is become so prevalent? and i note that in the book you say that israel has always made sales to despotic

regimes. like burma, so hard toes, indonesia, and apartheid era. south africa are countries like that still in business with israel. yes. the short answer is yes. of course, the parts of africa is now over, it is now a democratic regime. and so that's a good whether it's designed could be still a pod so that they can now make it possible i would suggest against it's black population. look not much has changed. what has changed? i think it's a bit a great to public scrutiny. and the reason i talk about pegasus is probably the sale of a lot of people reading the book. who may have heard of pegasus got a bit of pressing the last fees around the world and what's less understood a value. this is what i want to say. it's often framed as this rogue is riley company selling also technology to raise james, good and bad, raging cycled good and bad, the market that democratic and despotic. and for those who the underwear, this can be put onto your fine without you knowing there's no way you would know it's on there unless he gets forensically checked. so essentially it's

a silent weapon, which is put onto your iphone or android. everything on your assign can be viewed or accessed your camera, your microphone, your photos, your e mails information and that your loved ones. so girlfriend, boyfriend work like whatever it may be. and one of the things i challenge in the book is sorry much, so the media coverage in the last few years is focused on pegasus. and that's an important subject and get me talking about the chapter in the book about a but what's missing about. so i'm up to this coverage is the inside group, which is a company behind it is not some road company, it's an i'm of the states. it's an of these rather the government. so it, what i mean by that is yes, it's a private company for sure. it's got a board and it has makes profits dislike lockheed martin and reyes on day. but to me this is very similar. located mountains of private company. yes. but located mountain is used by the us isn't of the state. it's been use like that for decades like re

a phone has been as well they use as an um to certain foreign policy agendas of the us and ministration might have. it's exactly the same as well. so what i show in the book is remarkable store in the last 10 years when it's in yahoo, the seemingly never ending is riley prime minister. and the most ad, these riley intelligence go around the well to regimes they wanted refrain. i'm talking about india rolanda, you a, and they hold pegasus out as a diplomatic care of essentially saying, you want to be friends with us. we want to be friends with you. we will sell you. it is amazingly powerful spyware. we don't want to assume any questions about where it's going. he using it again, so maybe selling it to you a you pretty sure it's going to go against this it in so active us human rights workers. i mean we're 10 is relatives, we would like for example, you divide a certain way and the you in. this is how it works. so what i've shown in the book, it's in yahoo or the most set of visits, say hungry india, rolanda you a and within 6 or 12 months pegasus,

he's in use against critics in those countries. now, you could argue that's not a 100 percent evidence, but this is how it works. is how it works. it is reli selling this equipment as a diplomatic carrot to say we will help you refresh your own paper fee. but if you befriend us in that kind of transactional way and pegasus really, john is the tip of the iceberg. i signed the book loved the media attention is going on pegasus. which in fact the companies that happy about because they're doing exactly the same thing. like so much less tension and one of the real things is falling on this point is that the real disturbing aspects of this industry is actually unregulated. there is no regulation around the spiral industry in the last fi, some view as months. so hang on a 2nd, didn't president biden sanction these companies? in fact, he did. yes. and the last fee is by them comes into office, the sanctions and it's over now the face of where do you think one that seems great . america is working out to human rights. brilliant. what you,

what he's not regularly said, is it, this to me is nothing about sanctioning human rights abuses about america. and i talked about this lot in the book. america is annoyed that as well as taking their business, they're angry about the fact that american spyware companies are being superseded by as riley spyware companies. some of the us is trying to do by sanction is riley ones, is to give a leg up to the american ones. at the moment. israel is probably number one or 2 in the global spyware industry. america is not. and is united, you on america does not like nothing. number was not a big fan of the number one, even in the study weapons. so i say biden sanctioning of these riley spyware companies, as a way to try to assist american spyware companies, to can, to the rise of these riley, spyware firms. and so far, it's not working particularly well, to be honest. you make

a bowl declarative statement in the book that i couldn't agree with more. you say that literally everything changed for these really tech and military industry on september 11th, 2001. the change may have begun with the 1991 gulf war. can you tell us what you meant by that statement, and can you quantify for us what those changes have been? you know, on a day after 911 mentioned yahoo, who was not prime minister then was interviewed on american survey. and i have is quite in the book, a kind of sense, like the american tv at the house goes, what are your thoughts? he says, oh, i think it says great. so i'm and i'm paraphrasing here. so it's a great for res route and a high switch just like so. what are you talking about? screaming quite 30. now, when he explained to me not particularly well, but what he meant was the well to finally understand what he's rails been dealing with for decades. this was the narrative, these ro, southern narrative guys has been fighting a war on terror for decades against also muslim terrorists. so the argument goes,

and now america will understand then you're going to join us as, as ease row. to fight that similar war. i mentioned yahoo was ross. he was absolutely correct on that, that i talk about this low in the book that so much of the actions and rhetoric of the us post 911 was copied from these riley playbook that wasn't exactly the same. but it was very similar like he's rel, perfect, a decent living on effect in the eighty's and ninety's. i lived on 9th, 92 and it's sort of loading the book about how israel use certain language and behavior collateral damage. this is the word that was thought to be used by these riley's long before the americans started using it extensively. and to me, thank you so much for joining us. i learned a lot. thank you so much for having me. tell me it's been great and thank you to our viewers for taking the time to watch the great american patriot and founding father thomas paine said the government, even in its best state, is

a necessary evil in its worst state. it's an intolerable one. what does the person to do when the government takes the side of the envelope? we don't really have the answer to that question, but it's certainly something to ponder. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry alcove, will see you next time the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented to this,

but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the civilian sheltering in the hospitals in northern gaza are caught in the crossfire between the ideas and come up with generator fuel about to run out the lives of hundreds of patients are at risk. the 10s of thousands of civilians lead to southern gaza. i met a humanitarian crisis following israel's bombardment of the on plains north local journalist as long as the display of the precincts suffering here in the search find the water finally clicked to set the fighting food and hopefully be kind retail 5 or safe place over there. in the south and west believes to be the