the, the, the welcome to world support in all amber hammick religions deport personality of pilots is a major tenant engine is, is no exception. in fact, according to the tone would interpretation, the 2nd temple was destroyed exactly as a punishment for gratuitous hatred, which once again, it's as to be driving a bounce in the middle east can relate to us or perhaps political ideas offered any response from the bloodshed and retaliation engulfing big holy land will discuss it . i'm now joined by rumsey the room with a non resident senior research fellow at the center for as long and global affairs at east timble design university. dr. birth. it's great to talk to thank you very

much for being available. essentially for having that look to be rude. i just use this term, the holy lands, which many people today associated with the state of israel. but historically, as i'm sure, you know, if it refers to the entire area between the media to ring and see on the eastern bank of the jordan river, which includes the palestine. and this is where i want to start. what is palestine to you at this point? because it's not this fade, and yet it's not fully devoid all state structures or assigned to the states. so what is it? of course that has to be is how this time was on its way to becoming a nation state in the modern sense. but there was a destruction that has happened, particularly when britain in 1917, also be sunk on the bus for declaration on the bus for promise has granted, as well to design is movement. and in doing so,

creating this destruction in the history co cycle at this time was becoming a state like all other states in the region. but that date and the events that relate to the equation is well between 1917 and 19 for to change this dynamics entirely. so it'd be more than palestinian state. and the more than a studio struggle is really essentially a political struggle. now, do you really just struggle with ease of correcting the course of history the baby to because of the british colonial has a empower response and it's inception. and the grand thing of i respond to these i just moment in the after years. and it was there is this expression hope dies last and it's usually interpreted as something very aspirational. and the other thing it also reflects the very dark connection between hole and death. because a promise was realization is denied continuously is bound to lead to the very

opposite of hope, which is range, malice, despair, revenge. how much do you think this spend that cold have to do with what's happening in, in gaza today? right, so there has really been periods of our history in which i come to the indeed there was this kind of collective sense of despair. and this collective sense of despair follow political promises. the foothill, for example, after the madrid negotiations in 1991 after the also of course in 1993. this problem is that everything is going to be ok. our people are going to be ok, is we always start building supplements and there would be a palestinian state and to even make it more difficult for that's good. yes. this kind of sydney and hope is that they gave us, you know, symbols slug an accident and some membership has various

international distribution. so we're national team became an actual football team that is competing and the big so so for the so on and that kind of body would that sense of hope is indeed something real tangible is happening by default, political point of view. the exact opposite has happened. the number of jewish 2nd mess. tribble, the number appears to be a skilled, triple the number of books. oh, the joys federalist means. student westbank, contrary to international law, has increased initially so that you will have this condo home peril. we gotta use where we are feeding on hope. nothing is really happening on the ground. and that the sense of dispos that we have seen during the 2nd in the fall, the, and the suicide bombing phenomena the number. do you think that was a conscious strategy or do you think that was, you know, something, you know, the hardest reality of that not facilitating the finding of, of

a compromise because americans liked to say that, you know, perception is reality increasing. there wasn't a conscious attempt to create that perception while denying, realize it reality or do you think that just the way history develop is sort the former, not the last or, and we know that because for, for rational reasons, i mean, you can't find supplements and legal stuff in, that's your account fun because what you need me to tell you was 3800000000 dollars a year. and at the same time as the most, i guess to be a voice in the areas that are being appropriated by this happens. all of this to me and people's rights to exist when you are funding the very minute. sorry. that's just dividing them that's. that's what i think says so there was obviously something political and it was a perception that the americans were trying to market the americans. i'm very good with brandy. so if you really created this brand as the sword thus brand, and they decided that you don't agree with this, but as you are a radical, you're a terrorist. and besides are your american and you're the only one piece. but also

there are actual statements made by the lives of uh, what is the last name example, who was uh, the, uh, uh, an adviser, adviser diploma. is what department and start out. sure. who, who made it very clear in 2005 that we are setting palestinians, the idea that there would be a state, and that would be the deal would be listed. there will be a peace process. but to the country, what we are trying to say, and this is what you mean, the apologies necessary, not our own interpretation. we want to buy this to me. i'm going to die if you said, but we don't want to kill them. i think for anyone who has even the most basic understanding of collective psychology, it's pretty obvious that guys, it has become a very dangerous human experiment because it is bound to produce a radicalism and resistance and through i think human terrorism as a, as a natural way of opposing a person who cannot deny dignity to you know, it's

a successive generations of people for it. way too long. i mean, then i wonder what do you think these railey and perhaps the western leadership counted on? do they truly believe in your view that they can sort of seal these problem off in their, her medic, fashion 2 things. number one, that is what you guys are living in the cities. the media that you have on media is what you the media is hold on a different to the are aware like for example, the home to the term. that's what happened on october 7 was an approval. the actually have internalizes the they made it made on the spring that's holds your patient part time sieges, mass across killings, violence the united nation instead of 2022 was the most by that if you're in the west, texas to, to 2004, and then they give back again, it is a 2023 by june. it was the most violent fear that was faxed as

$2005.00. they don't wanna create a different story because it has already been declared and habitable by the united nations is them years ago. but in the minds of the is what it is because of the propaganda, the husband is where you need it. it's completely unprovoked. we have no idea why these people hate us so much. that's a problem in the american media. it's a different story. the american media, they have established this connection. that's what is what else is doing as well, is the read democracy, the only democracy in the middle east. and that is, will present the hopes and dreams of the great western civilization and the are fighting a war that goes to slam a 3rd. and there's little difference between isis and how much time so organ, so on. so the americans have a different video of indoctrination that make simple blind, at least mainstream media and government increase the blind to the price of the city as over the course of 75 years. now this 75 here is living under conditions. most of us would recognize as highly dramatic. i think there is no

dispute about it. it's, it's bound to produce collective trauma. so let me ask you a hypothetical question here because it's easy to blame is real and the americans in the west. but do you think the so called the allies or supporters of the palestinian people would actually in practicality, welcome a workable solution because when you deal with so many people who have been troubled psychologically economically logistically in all the possible ways, do you think the neighbors of palestine would actually one to st, free um, existing as a, as a state. right? so there are 2 different types of neighbors, all kind of cities, most very good neighbors. i don't want to go into a specific store and you know, to distract from the conversation. but these are the american olives and the work to the agenda to accommodate 2 elements. number one, they don't want too much trouble amongst their own people. revolts maybe even

minutes a cause and there's some serious spears. i think couple of these are countries. there is some way that there can be a mandatory quote if palestinians are continued to be slow, so that the site, but they will also wanting to accommodate the american big tasks and they want to stay on the what side of washington, the really my, their own risk, i mean like in practical terms that are also understandable, this is a valid political motivation. that's why i'm asking the same question. do you think they actually won the resolution of the palestinian nature? because as in humane as it seems right now, it seems to be keeping believe in place and making sure that the region is not troubled anymore. then i think it's kind of depends what's kinda on the kind of solution we're talking about in spanish, to me as are in indeed rented a minimal definition of justice as you know, out of city of state. that may be a step towards a future of, of the ration or, or one state where people can follow. come and go have freedom,

have political rights can vote. i don't see why this would be a problem for jordan or egypt, or anyone to the contrary is going to open up the space for not just for the socio economic equality and the region. what's for economic prosperity as well? the americans have the keys to all of this. the americans don't want to do it, even though it's actually by not doing it in this device. the regions of the americans want stable, but they're not doing it because there's a far wide government and as well. and that is what you just don't want any cause or visit lucian. that seems contrary to whatever ultimate goal they haven't thought of. but now you have written recently that one take away from this crisis is the guy that has ended the secretary and the war in the, in the middle is that, you know, regardless of whether people are sunni, identify themself, the sunni or she or they tend to support the well the policy and cost if they tend to resent what is being uh,

so what the guys that people are being subjected to do using that kind of effect could be lasting. and perhaps even game changing because i mean, and policies very natural at this point of time. but is it enough to move the situation from where it has been for many, many decades assigned to the american program in the middle east is situated with them. division, divide and conquer is as simple as that. i remember when the americans invaded the rock in 2003 they, they intentionally divided your walk into. she has the one so nice only. everybody knows that even though i visited your lot prior to that, and i didn't really see misconduct, step to your cost, but so ugly at happening on a daily basis. for the 1st time says the american invasion of your walk back then until today. i have not seen, for example, in egypt soon, the protesters chatting the names of housing as well as she either he been as

protesters, she approved sisters sending the names of so many of leaders. we're having a business, complete the adult temper with isn't enough to console and they got into something tangible into tangible, political solutions that will change the destiny on the policy and people rather than simply being used for political purposes. and those in those countries invest the struggle and that's the struggle. and that's what we're gonna start seeing manifest in the coming era, the americans. and this is what you use and the allies want the region to be pro. is that exactly where it is? because it's of the interest, there is another town hall as well. uh, yeah. man of palestine specific sections. okay. this thing has decided the elsewhere that is trying to create a new political paradigm. and i think the outcome of this part of the is going to change that you can ethics of the music use of song, but also the music is visa, be your political actors, whether be a restaurant site that talk, you know,

look how about looking for let me stop you right here. we will talk about how exactly that could manifest in a couple of minutes. but for now, stay tuned. the take a fresh look around is a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse who really wants a better wills,

and is it just as a chosen few. fractured images presented to this product? can you see through their illusion going underground, can the welcome back towards the portsmouth rumsey, by route and residence senior research follow as a center for as long on global affairs at symbols. i'm university, dr. berlin, before the break, we started talking about the american role in this whole conflict. and you wrote recently that the guys, that issue has become quite a liability for the bite and administration and the democratic party more broadly. the, this rhetorically say create bond between israel and the united states is becoming

more of a jewel political bondage. uh for the americans. do you seeing that this inner pressure, or they just come for the bond and administration may still on the issue, may lead to some converse pressure on the not in the whole government because let's face it, the americans can be privy a roof less even than that. on alice, when their own american interest are affected on are so many moving pieces here as well, is now going back to the status of the client's routine, which is really interesting. this is a conversation we've had regarding the music is for many years is with all the clients we dream or is the as they say that team is lacking, is wagging the dog. and i think there's a struggle now we're still in israel. it's so are afraid, and they have been saying this out loud, including a come are be viewing others within the right we or far right government that we are going back to that kind of stuff is where the america's telling us what to do

with the are those who are still insisting that israel has not lost it's political power, influence and credibility, and we make our own decisions. so i think one of the moving pieces is that what it is, what you just find himself going back to the 19 and he hasn't even already or, or the americans. steve is what you do policies in the middle east, or when they continue. this new empowered approach where they are to decide those are the words of george w bush back in today. so that's one of the pieces. the other one is how will this more affect the relationships between the democratic party, especially the rank and file with the needs who are still very kind of die hard supporters of kind of the we are going to see this thing coming elections. and we are beginning to see changes happening in terms of numbers, especially with younger democratic voters who are making goals and palestine, and showing their perception of bite. and now, uh,

i'm joining you from most crime here in russia. we have this felicia and the americans are always trying to impose their solutions on to everybody else. but in order to impose solutions, you have to have them a full stop. do you think the american, the current american administration even has an idea of how they can try to approach this very combustible issue? because if they only want to use it for political purposes, for appearances, you still need to offer something on the tricia seems to be so dire that it's very hard to understand where even to start the what to exploit. and this is one of the unprecedented outcomes of what's happening right now. we've gone to how we feel that that's what took place on october 7th and, and, and, and the legitimacy or lack. there are some of the 1st time, many years in which the americans are not the ones who have taken the initiative. we all know now you'll make lands famous book,

the font doctrine. and the idea that you just go and you just take advantage of that existing disaster or you impose when i'm at 53, organize the pieces to fit your foreign policy. i tried the best on the americans were taken by surprise. as much as that is what it is worth, taking by surprise. but what anthony thinking of other american, the subjects taller than all the rest are trying to do here. they are pretending that nothing has changed, but they are in fact the ones in charge. the g 7 is holding meetings to talk about the future of goals or with kind of as, as if they have been the ones who created this whole scenario. and the are the only ones who are capable of influencing the outcome of this scenario. and this is the biggest political crisis, i think for the americans in a long time in the middle east is are those of your yeah that's the, that's imposed on them are against. they are still trying to kind of show results and the are in charge book an actual entity. we are no longer the ones in the leadership position and they don't know what the outcome is going to. i want to ask

you uh, one of religious or political questions here because they have been some recent studies that i read recently. that israel permanent jewish businessman through all the 20th century house, sought to essentially intertwine religious and political discourse. particularly restoring the united states and particularly among the so called zine is christians, making them believe that the 2nd coming of christ is intrinsically linked to the political state of israel. and um, you know, they and then this is a very um, you know, 10 years connection because if people vote in favor of, you know, supporting the military and government and in a different land because of the there will view, you know, that could create uh, a lot of problems and americans aren't as we know, you know, still very powerful player. how, when do you think about it?

do you think that problem hasn't been given enough attention? and the political implications of using the religious discourse for creating support for it is around and is your how come us senators, quoting for really just more or saying this is that really just work is 35 because you're not no longer talking about. so, you know, people within desktop dismissal has kind of semester ideas, know your talking about people within government and we know that that is what you guys have already at least the conclusion that it is that really just warranty made that very clear. and those who are being sold for the rest of us as margaret or soon so as soon as weight and positive, they are using very big nicole language as in turning goals are to ashes. eradicating the kind of, i mean tiny fight terrifying that we know that this must be differentiated from them, which is used by, by it is slowly put it to go force as composite steinman. this is quite

a complicated show. i just want to kind of highlight to things, so you sometimes can be used as a ford. well you go and destroy and kill in the name of god. and sometimes face can be used as a shield. i receive this with palestinian most of us, but christians. i mean we have seen a christian last. i mean a christian trudge at christian hospital being destroyed. then we have seen that. what do you mean? anything from the christian connecting gaza is very face oriented. the same themselves asked us to be as far as the christian 2nd. so this is different and, and this whole idea of the are actually put fighting with those funds you made to them. the sad reality is the exact opposite. it is also on the bike to or palestinians walk by using this rather just fundamental isn't and it's, and we are using face as a way to st. stay strong under the harshest of circumstance. now in your work for, for this center uh for islam and global affairs, and i'm sure you're quite familiar with this course of how potentially dangerous

political as long could be. i mean, a couple of years ago, it was a very popular topic. so do you see any difference between political as long and let's say political zion is in the, in this particular case? yes, of course. and, and, and here i am i excluding groups that could be directly or potentially manipulated and used by western governments to see political agendas in syria or elsewhere. not going to talk about these guys. and i, i'm also excluding groups the way those guys i usually turn this term is, by the way, i mean, like the courses, for example, wasn't brand of terrorism. even though they were a political the longest, in some sense. exactly. i mean, that's many of the game, you know, you're kind of create or many people to give a space to set them hopes to operate as so save your serve your interest. and at the same time, you dump them with all sorts of things. so in order for you to create this or to present yourself as the savior, humanity by the group such as the like,

like how much impact his time and see all those in the region, the or non state actors but the operate with his national bank because we don't operate beyond national boundaries. so if you don't have a, just this mission, the rates us being, you know, and bring spin back to the baseline, the kingdoms of angels or restore the cane if they are not in any way interested or involved in that kind of the discourse. and unless you understand that, you could easily fall into the trouble. the american propaganda that probably by this time asked about, as i says, isis is a card and so forth. and so the, a lot of people in the us because they don't allow us to use an honest conversation about these issues and mainstream media. a lot of people are buying into this and they are behaving as indeed how much. and i says, are the same for the different you mentioned his bowler and her mouth, and correct me if i'm wrong with our thing. his ball of was

a pretty much and empowered by the is rarely campaign against the pillow. where's come? i us is a direct creation all file for israel i because, and from what i understand initially it was created as a single service group and it only through the deck and so 5 denying dignity into their power. steering and people that it turned into what it turned to do you think there will be any and have to have probably, but the, at least in toronto analysis on the part of these really special services on american special services about them. you know, the kind of groups that they read and what is actually supporting this resistance among the posting is that it's not about the concrete group, but rather about the conditions on the ground of some guy with extensive. in fact, the book about this is about the rise of how much and i wouldn't say it was created as much as it is what it is kind of hard to put bodies go to a store for the experiments as they continue to doing, draws in the west bank,

again by giving you little bit of space for a certain point, it took a rival to grow with the whole, the degree its function and the creation civil wars and that sort of thing. but indeed, this is what happened of jamal this, let me it is that a good was the, the, the kind of the 4 runner of how most in gaza and they were involved in cultural programs. university is hospitals, charities. but when you are dealing with a restaurant, organizational, but any kind is brand new or n e o. otherwise, as that brussel society is part of the struggle against occupation, i guess apartheid naturally the are going to themselves mothers to be part of that movement. so we have the is what it is intended or didn't that, and i really don't think they did a how much has with, on become the main resistance platform for palestine in garza. and in fact, at this point in the west bank as well. now it's picking about resistance and my

question may come across as very arrogant, but i do ask it out of deep emphasis on the same proceed with the palestinian people. because when you leave in the, under the spirit of resistance and in the conditions of occupation for so long, i think the task of governing becomes very challenging. i mean, it's a very challenging, right back even for the most um, you know, developing nations. but i assume it's, it's, it's if wouldn't be a very hard challenge for the people of palestine. do you think they're still capable of from cooperating and running themselves? no, just resisting the imaginative on this one of the circumstances. goals have government living under total seats. i told a political i solutions managed to actually govern gonzalez under the circumstances . i know it's the, you're not going to talk about the perfect sonata you yet, but they actually did manage to govern bozza,

to some extent under all of this. i think yes, i think the are more than capable of doing so, but it's the external passwords that make sense. so impossible. like right now, 60 percent of goals that has been either 40 or partially destroyed. it is going to take the last number. i heard a few days ago that is going to take about $3000000000.00, but now we might be looking at a 4 or $5000000000.00 to govern gauze the to, to bring want 30 to process a brief 40 into gaza. because of the pressure bite as well. and the last states, how are the, you know, are going to be responsible for rebuilding garza and bring them all this money and, and so just they are capable of doing so if the external pressures allow good or is up enough for the building of glasses or to take well the converter with is very dark, know they have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today. thank you for having. i'm thank you for watching hope to see her again. when it was a part of the

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the, there is no siege, i repeat, there is no sage on the ship. a hospital. israel rejects allegations of attacks on the l. c. for hospital as conditions their rapidly deteriorate, doctors without borders, warns the situation is catastrophic. the 10s of thousands of civilians flee the southern gaza and a humanitarian crisis following israel's bombardment of the enclave is north. a local journalists is among the display of the precincts suffering here in the doors and go this to refine the reward or find a click. just of the fighting to and hopefully because retail 5, a safe place over there in the south and west believes to be the largest ryans.