the, the, the, the 2nd largest hospital in gone to see since the function due to fuel shortage is as is really bumps continued the palm of the palestinian on lights. 5 palestinian babies die after a power outage at dogs as large as hospital, according to local officials, as israel steps up, it's ground and based on the idea, send them us released the footage of the forces clashing inside northern dogs among the ruins of residential building and pro palestinian raleigh to germany to us really a continue around the world with demonstrations in barcelona. our rupturing is in process with the others. are the headlines we're following here on our,

to international next step on world the part of santa speaks, the 3rd guess about whether religious teaching is can bring an end to the bloodshed and retaliation in the thing. the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, the welcome to world support in all of the hammock religions deport personality of pilots isn't major tenant engine is, is no exception. in fact, according to the total dick interpretation, the 2nd temple was destroyed exactly as a punishment for gratuitous hatred, which once again,

just the driving of bounce in the middle east coast. religious or perhaps political ideas, offer an annual response from the bloodshed and retaliation engulfing big holy land . will discuss it. i'm now joined by rumsey, the room with a non resident senior research. follow the center for as long and global affairs at east timble design university. dr. barton with it's great to talk to thank you very much for being available. essentially for having that looks improved. i just use this term, the holy lands, which many people today associated with the state of israel. but historically, as i'm sure, you know, if they're refers to the entire area between the media to rainy and see on the eastern bank of the jordan river, which includes the palestine. and this is where i want to start. what is palestine to you at this point? because it's not the state, and yet it's not fully devoid all state structures or a phantom of a state. so what is it?

of course that has to be is how this time was on its way to becoming a nation state in the modern sense. but there was a destruction that has happened, particularly when britain in 1917 also would be sunk on the bus for declaration on the bus for promise has granted, as well to design is movement. and in doing so, creating this destruction in the historical cycle at this time was becoming a state like all other states in the region. but that date and the events that relate to the equation is well between 19171948. change this, they not mixed entirely. so they malden by the city and state and the more than a studio struggle is really essentially a political struggle. nothing is really just struggle. the themes of correct thing . that's course of history the baby to because of the british colonial has

a empower response and it's inception. and the grand thing of his funds to design this moment in the last 3 years. and it was there is this expression hope dies lost and it's usually interpreted as something very aspirational. and the other thing, it also reflects the very dark connection between hole and death. because a promise was realization is denied continuously is bound to lead to the very opposite of hope, which is range, malice, despair, revenge. how much do you think this spend that cold have to do with what's happening in, in gaza today? right, so this has really been periods of out of his 3 lunch icons. you know, there are indeed there was this kind of collective sense of despair. and this collective sense of despair follow political promises. the foothill, for example,

after the madrid negotiations in 1991 after the also of course in 1993. this problem is that everything is going to be ok. our people are going to be ok, is we always start building supplements and there would be a palestinian state and to even make it more difficult for that's good. let's do find a studio. is that they gave us in those symbols slides and actually have some membership at various international distribution. so we're national team became an actual football team that is competing and the big so so for that, so on and that kind of body. and that sense of hope is indeed something real tangible is happening. by default political point to view the exact opposite has happened, the number of jewels 2nd mess. tribble, the number appears to be a skilled, triple the number of books on the doorstep list. this student westbank, contrary to international walk, has increased initially so that you'll have this kind of power all we gotta use

where we are feeding on hope. nothing is really happening on the ground. and that the sense of despair that we have seen viewing the 2nd in the fall, the, and the suicide bombing put on me in the number. do you think that was a conscious strategy or do you think that it was, you know, something you know, the hardest reality that not facilitating the finding of, of a compromise because americans like to say that, you know, perception is reality increasing. there wasn't a conscious attempt to create that perception while denying, realize it reality or do you think that just the way history develop is a sort of a former nothing that's or and we know that because for, for rational reasons, i mean your current fund settlements and legal stuff, and that's your current funds because what you need me to tell you was $3800000000.00 a year. and at the same time as the most sd of rights in the areas that are being

appropriated by the southern or the industry and people's right to exist while you are funding the very minute. sorry, that's just the volume them that that's right. and so there was obviously something political, and it was a perception that the americans were trying to market the americans. i'm very good with brandy. so they really created as brand as the sword, thus brand. and they decided that you don't agree with this. but as you are a radical, you're a terrorist and besides are your and the american and you're doing the one piece. but also there are actual statements made by the lives of uh uh, what is the last for example, who was uh, the, uh, uh, an adviser, adviser diploma. is what department and start out. sure. who, who made it very clear in 2005, that we are studying palestinians, the idea that there would be a state and there would be no, there won't be no stay. there will be a peace process. but to the contrary, what we are trying to say, and this is what you mean, the apologies necessary,

not only interpretation, we want to put by the stimulus on a die if you said, but we don't want to kill them. i think for anyone who has even the most basic understanding of collective psychology, it's pretty obvious that guys, it has become a very dangerous human experiment because it is bound to produce a radicalism and resistance. and the, i think, given terrorism as a, as a natural way of opposing a person who cannot deny dignity to, you know, it's a successive generations of people for it, way too long. i mean, then i wonder what do you think these railey and perhaps the western leadership counted on? do they truly believe in your view that they can sort of seal these problem off in their, her medic, fashion 2 things. number one, that is what you guys are living in the cities, the media that you have on media as well in the media, is how the different people are unaware. like for example, in the home to the term,

that's what happened. october 7 was an approval. the actually have internalizes, we believed it made on the spring that's holds your patient. now part time sieges mastic was getting was biden's. they not as nice. instead, the 2022 was the most by that if you're in the west, texas to, to 2000 on this, they give back again. it is a 2023 by june. it was the most violent view of the west coast as $2005.00. they don't want me to different story because it has already been declared up and have it to will by the united nation. is them years ago was in the minds of the is what it is because of the propaganda. the husband is really need it . it's completely unprovoked. we have no idea why these people hate us so much. that's a problem in the american media. it's a different story. in the american media, they have established this connection with what is what is going as well as the read democracy, the only democracy in the middle east. and that is real. it presents the hopes and dreams of the great western civilization. and they are fighting a war against islam

a 3rd. and there's no difference between isis and how much time so organ, so on. so the americans have a different layer of indoctrination that makes them have blind at least made the same media and government completely blind to the price of the city is over the course of 75 years. now this 75 here is living under conditions. most of us would recognize as highly dramatic. i think there is no dispute about it. it's a, it's bound to produce collective trauma. so let me ask you a hypothetical question here because it's easy to blame is real and the americans and the was. but do you think the so called the allies or supporters of the palestinian people would actually impracticality welcome a workable solution because when you deal with so many people who have been troubled psychologically economically logistically and all the possible ways, do you think the neighbors of palestine would actually one to st, free um,

existing as a, as a state. right? so there are 2 different types of neighbors, all kind of cities, mostly with neighbors. i don't want to go into specifics to and you know, to distract from the conversation. but these are the american olives and the war of the agenda to accommodate 2 elements. number one, the don't want too much trouble amongst their own people. the holes, maybe even minutes a cause and there's some serious spears. i think couple of these are confused. there is some way that there can be a mandatory, cool, in spite of studios are continued to be slow, so that the site. but they will also wanting to accommodate the american big task and they want to stay on the what side of washington. the is their own risk. i mean like in practical terms that are also understandable. this is a valid political motivation. that's why i'm asking the same question. do you think they actually won the resolution of the palestinian nature? because as in humane as it seems right now, it seems to be keeping believe in place and making sure that the region is not

troubled anymore. then i think it's kind of depends what's kinda on the kind of solution we're talking about in spanish, to me as are in indeed rented a minimal definition of justice as you know, kind of city of state that may be a step towards a future of, of the ration or, or one state where people can follow, come and go, have freedom, have political rights can vote. i don't see why this would be a problem for jordan or egypt, or anyone to the contrary is going to open up the space for not just for socio economic equality in the region. but for economic prosperity as well. the americans have refused to all of this. the americans don't want to do it, even though it actually by not doing it in this. the region of the americans wants table, but they are not doing it because there's a far, wide government and as well. and that is what you just don't want any cause or

visit lucian. that seems contrary to whatever ultimate goal they haven't thought of, but now you have reason. recently, the one take away from this crisis is the guy that has ended, the secretary of the war in the, in the middle, is that, you know, regardless of whether people are sunni, identify them as a sunni or she or they tend to some poor the, and the policy and cost, if they tend to resent what is being uh so that would be guys that people are being subjected to. do you think that kind of a fact could be lasting and perhaps even game changing because i mean, and policies very natural at this point of time. but is it enough to move the situation from where it has been for many, many decades assigned to the american program in the middle east is situated with them division, divide and conquer. it's as simple as that. i remember when the americans invaded the rock in 2003 the v vi in pennsylvania and divide it

a log in to she has the one so new zones. everybody knows that even though i visited the lot prior to that, and i didn't really see misconduct, step to your cost, but so agreeing happening on a daily basis for the 1st time says the american invasion of your walk back then until today. i have not seen, for example, in egypt soon, the protesters chatting the names of housing as well as she either he been is protesters. she approved this through sending the names of some of the, our leaders. we're having a business, complete the induct number with is it enough to console and then that into something tangible into tangible, political solutions that will change the destiny on the policy and people rather than simply being useful political purposes in those in those countries. and the struggle, and that's the struggle, and that's what we're going to start seeing manifest in the coming era, the americans. and this is what you use and the allies want the region to be pro. is that exactly where it is?

because it's of interest. there is another town hall as well. uh, yeah man, how this time specific sections of the society of elsewhere that is trying to create a new political part of going on. i think the outcome of this part of the is going to change that you on ethics of the music use itself, but also that music is visa, be your political actors, whether be a restaurant site that talk, you know, look how about looking for, let me stop here right here, we will talk about how exactly that could manifest in a couple of minutes. but for now, section the take a fresh look around is life kaleidoscopic, isn't just

a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify it will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can

the the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to one supports with ramsey by ruth and residents. senior research follow as a center for as long on global affairs at symbols. i'm university dr. brewer and before the break we started talking about the american role in this whole conflict . and you wrote recently that the gaza issue has become quite a liability for the biden and ministration. and the democratic party more broadly that this rhetorically sacred bond between israel and the united states is becoming

more of a jewel political bondage. uh for the americans. do you seeing that this inner pressure or the just come for the bond and administration may feel on the issue, may lead to some converse pressure on the not in the whole government because let's face it, the americans can be pre the roof. less even been that on allies one, their own american interest are affected on our so many moving pieces here as well, is now going back to the status of the client's reaching, which is really interesting. this is a conversation we've had regarding the music is for many years is we all the clients we dream or is the as they say that team is lacking, is wagging the dog. and i think there's a struggle now we're some in israel itself are afraid, and they have been saying this out loud, including commodity via and others within the rights we or far by governments that

we are going back to that kind of stuff is where the america's telling us what to do and the are those who are still insisting that israel has not lost it's political power, influence and credibility, and we make our own decisions. so i think one of the whole big pieces is that what it is, what you just find himself going back to the 19 eighties and even earlier where the americans dictate is what you did, policies in the middle east, or when they continue. this new empowered up towards where they are to decide there's part of it was of george w bush back in the day. so that's one of the pieces. the other one is how will this more affect that relationship between the democratic party, especially the rank and file, with the eighty's, who are still very kind of die hard supporters of kind of the we're going to see this thing coming elections. and we are beginning to see changes happening in terms of numbers, especially with younger democratic voters who are making goals in palestine and

showing their perception of bite. and now, uh, i'm joining you from most current here in russia. we have this glue shade that the americans are always trying to impose their solutions on to everybody else. but in order to impose solutions, you have to have them a full stop. do you think the american, the current american administration even has an idea of how they can try to approach this very combustible issue? because even if they only want to use it for political purposes, for appearances, you still need to offer something on the tricia seems to be so dire that it's very hard to understand where even to start the what to exploit. and, and this is one of the unprecedented outcomes of what's happening right now because of how we feel that's what took place on october 7th and, and, and, and the legitimacy or lack. there are some of the 1st time in many years and what's the americans are not the ones who have taken the initiative. we all know now

you'll make lands famous book, the font doctrine. and the idea that you just go and you just take advantage of the existing disaster, or you can pause when i'm at 5 to leave. organize the piece says to fit your foreign policy. i tried the best time the americans were taken by surprise as much as that is what it is. what taken by surprise must look empty thinking of other american official jake solid. but all the rest are trying to do here. they are pretending that nothing has changed, but they are in fact, the ones that are taught, the g 7 is holding me. things to talk about the future or garza will come as, as if they have been the ones who created this whole scenario as are the only ones who are capable of influencing the outcome of this scenario. and this is the biggest political crisis, i think for the americans in a long time in the middle east is if there's a new reality that's imposed on them or again, they are still trying to kind of show results and the are in charge book, an actual entity,

we are no longer the ones in the leadership position and they don't know what the outcomes going to. i want to ask you uh, one uh, religious or political question here because uh, they have been some recent studies that i read recently. that israel and prominent jewish businessman through all the 20th century house, sought to essentially into twine religious and political discourse, particularly so in the united states. and particularly among the so called zion is christians, making them believe that the 2nd coming of christ is intrinsically linked to the political state of israel. and you know, this is a very, um, you know, 10 years connection. because if people vote in favor of, you know, supporting the military and government in, in a different land because own father will view, you know, that could create a lot of problems and americans aren't, as we know, you know,

still very powerful player. how, when do you think about it? do you think that problem hasn't been given enough attention? and the political implications of using the religious discourse for creating supports for it is around and as you, what has a ton of us senators, quoting for really just more or saying this is really just work is 35 because you are not no longer talking about you know, people within the establishments who have kind of semester ideas, knowing your talking about people within government and we know that that is what you just have already at least the conclusion that it is that really just warranty made that very clear in those who are being sold for the rest of us as margaret or students always in his way to positives, they are using very biblical language as in turning goals or info ashes. eradicating the kind of, i mean terrifying to finding that we know that this must be differentiated from the language that is used by,

by slightly political forces composite style. and this is quite a complicated issue. i just want to kind of highlight 2 things. so you sometimes can be used as a forward where you go and destroy and kill in the name of god. and sometimes these can be used as a shield. and we see this with the study and most of the questions, i mean we have seen a question last, i mean a question trudge, acquisition, hospital being destroyed. then we have seen that. what do you mean? anything from the christian community in gaza is very face for you to receive themselves as well as to be as far as the christians 2nd. so this is different and, and this whole idea of the do are actually put fighting religious fundamentalism. the sad reality is the exact opposite. it is also a fight to or palestinians was by using this rather just fundamental isn't as it's and we are using face as a way to st. stay strong under the harshest of circumstance. now your work for, for the center of fort is on global affairs. i'm sure you're quite familiar with

this course of how potentially dangerous political as long could be. i mean, a couple of years ago, it was a very popular topic. do you see any difference between politically is long and let's say political zionism, and in this particular case, yes, of course. and, and, and here i am i, excluding groups that could be directly or potentially manipulated and used by western governments to see political agendas in syria or elsewhere. not going to talk about these guys. and i, i'm also excluding groups that and by the way, those guys that usually turn this term is, by the way, i mean, like the prices, for example, wasn't brand of terrorism. even though they were a political, the, as long as been some sense. exactly. i mean, that's the name of the game, you know, your kind of create, told many people to give this space to set themselves to operate as so save your serve your interest. and at the same time,

you dump them with all sorts of things. so in order for you to create this or to present yourself as the savior, be humanity by the group such as the like, like how much impact his time and see all those in the region. the or non state actors by the operate with his national bank because they don't footprint beyond national boundaries. so if you don't have a, just this mission deliberate us being, you know, and bring spin back to the baseline, the kingdoms of angels or restore the cane if they are not in any way interested, oregon, both of them that kind of the discourse. and unless you understand that, you could easily fall into the trouble, the american propaganda, that's probably by this time asked about, as i says, isis is a card and so forth inside of the a lot of people in the us. because they don't allow us to use an honest conversation about these issues in mainstream media. a lot of people are buying into this and they are behaving as indeed how much. and i says are the same for the

different. you mentioned his bowler and how mazda and correct me if i'm wrong, but i think his ball of was uh, pretty much um, empowered by the, uh, is rarely campaign against the pillow. where's how miles is the direct creation all file for israel i because, and from what i understand initially it was created as a civil service group and it only through the deck and so far denying dignity into their policy and people that it turned into what it turned to do you think there will be any and have to have probably, but the, at least in toronto analysis on the part of these really special services on american special services about them. you know, the kind of groups that they read and what is actually supporting this resistance among the posting is that it's not about the concrete group, but rather about the conditions on the ground or some guy who is extensive. in fact, i wrote a book about this issue and i, the rides are promised, and i wouldn't say it was created as much as it is where it is kind of hard to put

bodies, go to a store for the experiments as they continue to doing drugs. in the west bank again, by giving you little bit of space for a certain point, it took a rival to grow with the whole degree its function and the create civil wars and that sort of thing. but indeed, this is what happened of jamal this let me of this that it was the they the kind of the 4 runner of how most in gaza and they were involved in cultural paint brows. university is us because charities. but when you are dealing with a restaurant, organizational, but any calling is brand new or m e o, o. otherwise, as that dresser, society is part of the struggle against occupation. i guess apartheid naturally the are going to themselves mothers to be part of that movement. so we have the is what it is intended or didn't, and i really don't think they did a how much has a with, on become the main resistance platform for palestine in garza. and in fact, at this point in the west bank as well. now it's picking about resistance and my

question may come across as very arrogant, but i do ask it out of deep emphasis on the same proceed with the palestinian people. because when you leave in the, under the spirit of resistance and in the conditions of occupation for so long, i think the task of governing becomes very challenging. i mean, it's a very challenging right now even for the most um, you know, developing nations. but i assume it's, it's, it's, if wouldn't be a very hard challenge for the people of palestine. do you think they're still capable of from cooperating and running themselves? no, just resisting the imagine just under the support of the circumstances and goals have government living under total seats. i told a political i solutions managed to actually govern gonzalez under the circumstances . i know it's the, you're not going to talk about the perfect scenario yet. but they actually did

manage to govern garza to some extent, under all of this. i think, yes, i think the are more than capable of doing so. but is the external passions that make sense to impossible? like right now, 60 percent of goals that has been either 40 or partially destroyed. it is going to take the last number i've heard a few days ago. that is gonna take about $3000000000.00. but now we might be looking at a 4 or $5000000000.00 to govern garza the, to be, want 30 to process a brief 40 into gaza because of the pressure bite as well. and the last states, how are the, you know, are going to be responsible for 3 building garza and bring them all this money and, and so just they are capable of doing so is the external pressure of a lounge or is up enough for the building of glasses or to take, well, the converter with on this very dark nodes, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your insights with us