the i'm option redundancy and welcome back to going underground bull gas to go around the world from the radiant peninsula where our lead is continue to oppose nature nation refusals to back us these 5, i mean the soldier and gods after a weekend of global protests against washington's nature, wyoming of israel to sort of thousands of on thousands of follow city and children . let's go straight to washington dc, dr. as a new patient senior resident scholar, the gulf states institute in washington and author of the book, what's wrong with the one said agenda y ending the occupation and peace with israel is still the palestinian national gold joins me now. thanks so much dr. beach for coming on. you've studied the region for a for years. how surprised the you? and can you ever remember a, a gyptian president sitting egyptian president refusing to even meet with the sitting us presidency? see, of course, refused as did the king of jordan whilst the eastern mediterranean was being filled with jo biden's warships. yeah, i, it's been a very, very long time. i mean,

i think you'd have to go back to the era of the, of the 1st of all, for the 199091 iraqi and visual quit. and us response of that fine senior arbitrators aren't necessarily egyptian ones, but senior, our leaders avoiding the united states, avoiding the scene with the american senior officials, etc. so it's been a long time. this is an onslaught by israel is, is extraordinary for sure. and i think at the moment that the meeting was due to happen, there was such a ramping up of decibels thing is the guys that it was predictable and not terribly surprising to see that happen. since then, you've seen my florida best meeting with the anthony blinking and other arab leaders meeting with the senior american official. so i think, you know, the wrist is, is temporary, but it was politic, glean necessary,

of the time for the arab leaders to do that. in the same way, the advisor felt that political imperative on several levels as the american president, but also as the leader of the democratic party, to sort of bear hug israel. and you know, so everyone is kind of disgusted with each other for doing things that are they fine. politically advantageous? do you think it's a perfectly repairable this because the you a, with china repeatedly but to motions versus 5 back by the, you inspected general, of course. i mean, what do you think will stop it being repairable? because obviously the united states has been bombing syria in the past few days. if that starts to ramp up, do you think that might be a red line for jesus? um, no, i don't think so because i think the, the us attacks with syria and, and, and he's going to be less doesn't iraq are going to be very limited. and in response to the attacks by probably around you and militias on, on american forces. i think the ice age um is in a,

an interesting position where the one thing and that's all 4 major actors in this equation in terms of the war spreading from gaza. that is to say the us iran, israel, and here's my la all agreed sort of from october 8th until now that it would be much better as the were getting spread if it were contained to gaza. and that, that's probably why it hasn't spread. and why one, on the other hand, there's a lot of activity by probably around the militia, groups of his belong to liberties border by typist, by line iraq, by groups with syria to peck at the conflict to make, to do station i. and it'd be cash. and make sure that they have some kind of indemnification against charges that they didn't do anything at all to help how much or to help the palace. it's so they can point to things that they've done. and i think the americans are trying to draw a red line and say, all right, so there's going to be a response, but it's all going to be very measured. and especially if you look at the mileage

between israel and his bell around the lebanese border, they both sides being very careful to stay within what you might call the rules of engagement that have are advertising since 2006, 2007. since the last big war that they had, and they're speaking within about a mile of the border in both cases and haven't been too many people killed on either side and, and i think there is an understanding that there will be violence, but that nobody really wants an all out war with the exception of thomas, which was kind of counting on it, but they're not going to get it. they probably, why do you call them probably range in malicious because clearly how much i'm a supported american policy in syria and has, will a very keen on saying it is not taking motors from, i mean, i suppose one could say britain is a proxy of the united states or western european do says proxy. i said pro, you could certainly call britain a pearl american country. you could call all the golf countries pro american

countries, right. so it's not an insult to say that someone is probably wrong in when they're connected deeply to here on i, i don't think that his bolos taking orders for me around at all. in fact, my impression is that uh no sir. i allowed the leader of his butler got put in a very difficult position because, and you know, when he sort of consulted with the army is i, i believe that is a lot of evidence to suggest is that the, he was told do what it, by the by your, on what you like, it's up to you, we're not going to show you what to do. and that then sort of denied him the indemnification of being able to say, well, but iraq. so it was all on him. and he's, i think, independently decided it's not a great idea how much is a line with the around to some extent. but it's also not. and i don't think there's any dog but needs or iran and the supreme national security council in town, nor his by law, had any inkling of the attractive, harass, was planning on up over 7 they, they'd heard vague things about

a potential action against israel. and they kind of generally said that might be a good idea and they might support it. but, you know, there's no reason to take that the past was acting as a proxy of your, um, it was not, it was acting on its own which and yet, and yet if you watch american mainstream media and it gives you your misfortune to do so, there i think the you as why then the frame know why it's white? well, a lot of people do, of course, why. yeah, they, why the framing endlessly about the fact that this is iran in the binding centers, warships to threaten iran when in fact they're not even in the background of whether they're actually up in the eastern mediterranean. yeah, it was, it was a kind of an intimidation, saber rattling against is by law not, not against here on the look, the american broadcast media, you have to excuse it for a 2nd, the rep or charged the commentary,

but the rep or charging the major papers in the new york times, the washington post of wall street journal. as much more serious. but when you turn on the television, you get a bunch of dumb down, garbage. ok, and that's just the way it is. that's why i never turned on the television under any circumstances, and you will lose brain cells if you do in this country. you include cnn as a. yeah, absolutely. oh, hard. yeah, except the one on on, which is very rare. that's awesome. but yeah, i include, of course, very much the look. they're trying to spoon feed the public, a simple narrative that usually involves goodies and bodies. and when it gets complex, it gets complex between republicans and democrats, or between republicans of other republicans, or democrats and other democrats. the notion that there was a complex world out there where how much can be, you know, close to it on, in some ways, but far from it and others. and it doesn't act as a proxy at all, where his butler sometimes does act as a client of iran. but in this case,

clearly they were not getting any instructions from the iranians, which was actually, i would argue, problematic for the leader, because butler hadn't made it more difficult for him to say no, which he did. but it's just simple. so it's done. don't, don't, you know if you were to tell people the whole story, you would have to begin at the beginning because most americans know nothing about the middle east and the care less actually. and it's easier just to tell them you're on bad. the militias are bad career on the emotions of it. also, the pro american countries are not great and they may also be bad. israel is, is good, except occasionally and that the us is always there. there is you're given the con, hi, thank on hi, be images that are coming up, uncensored of dead killed children. yeah. children killed by american weapons from the guard going through. and it has had an impact on thinking, especially among democrats,

where you now got 46 percent of democrats liberals in united states. thinking that the us has gone too far and supporting israel. you still have 3 quarters of republicans backing israel all the way and thinking it has responded correctly. there is a degree of hawkish unless there, there is a degree of racism there. there is a degree of islamic phobia there. there all kinds of things that are bubbling around in the republican party that skew it to be pro israel, even when there are these images of piles of dead children. but it's causing a lot more discombobulated than among democrats. and you'll see that the binding and restrictions in shing towards, you know, more and more calls on israel for a, you know, a, a, a ceasefire. they call it a humanitarian pause. that's a, that's a euphemism for a temporary spar. they're, they're talking about different things though, israel's talking about an hour or 2. you know, i say is this talking about a day or 2, or 3 or 4?

so they're not on the old page really. they've lost the entire will in this refuse . yes. a cold or a c type? is that the last thing? the last thing, the legacy of october, the 7th. i mean they've been many, many atrocities. obviously since 9048 is the last thing. the legacy of the i'm a lead attack on october. the 7th. not so much put in palestine front and center again in the global imagination by creating and rejuvenating a huge tension between the peoples of western europe in the united states, against the latest. ah, no, i don't think it's that. exactly. i mean, there's a disagreement, but it's not, you know, people aren't able to, i don't really care about guys or that much. they're not, that much know, there are pockets who do we are the americans, the american muslims, a very progressive left elements on the right. the on the say honestly, frankly, the actually somebody great, you know who, who got many jews as well. we saw a huge a. yeah. yeah that's, that's about us obviously. and what that includes

a lot, a lot of progressive less uh people in the united states are jewish, and they are pro palestinian and aunties linus and they've been very loud. uh and yeah, definitely includes them up. so you've got this mix of people, but there's sort of fringe when you put together the whole sort of 350000000 americans, they don't add up to it. they're loud, but they don't add up to a very big number. most americans are, you know, they're not happy with what's going on unless they're racist republicans. but basically, democrats are not heavy, but they're not going to abandon by, you know, it seemed to me, uh, and when i saw a pole, i saw a post anti defamation in the pool, 40 percent of americans think israel treat developed indians like the nazi street of jews, i swore 58 percent of the times of israel, 58 percent of americans against the excessive counter attack by israel. these a big on number is a day so that even a massive these massive disparities between the house of representatives

a censuring, negotiated july. yeah, exactly. so that's right, and there is, there is a noticeable gap. this is what i'm talking about. especially on the left of center set or left and then all the way to the left. in other words, the, on the in, among democrats there, there is a visible distinction between what the party and national leaders are saying and what half of the democrats are. thank you know, and that's very much clear. on the other hand, um, as i say, i think there are not that many people who are going to go to the polls in 2024, looking at donald trump as the alternative. and they're going to say, well, the whole it, but there will be folks, especially in pockets of our, the american in america, most of us. but i think in the end it has a limited residence unit, even though it's a foreign policy in united states is always a secondary issue unless americans are getting killed. right. so when,

when you're off or is going on with, you know, after $911.00 when they and things like that, then it's a big deal. okay? don't say dimensions of elections, you know, his image, i'll stop you. the more from the senior residents call or the are a gulf states institute in washington after this break, the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington. as for so the funder lion likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to me online. we have very quick propaganda. you know,

a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath. any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask, the better the answer is will be the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the senior resident scholar. the are gulf states and said you, doctors and emission doctor and fish we were just talking uh before the break about the fact that people don't care that much about foreign policy and heather the next general election, which job of which the persecuted opposition needed. donald trump is clearly leading in the polls. they will, of course, care when it comes to raise the oil prices and hawaii or impact all of anything. yeah, this, this home us attack occurs and the ensuing cottage in garza occurs amidst an environment in which the saudis refuse repeatedly biden's goal is to increase production of oil. right. clearly normalization with israel is off the table. you

see what's happening in gaza together with the global south support of russia in the us war through ukraine, creating big tensions for the, for the dollars in people's pockets in the united states as well. we'll have to see it. it's over determine the value of the currency and the question of inflation and inflation as compared to wages is incredibly complicated. so the point to be over determine that no one can really predict that even the best economists are very shaky ground. when they, from the gnostic game right now, um there is a, a, a full employment situation in the united states. but inflation has deb down the value of wages. so it's a mixed bag for ordinary people. they've been, economy writ large, is very strong. but people kind of in a way are suffering if they just assume that they're going to have

a job and they do have more, then they are quite upset about how far their dollars go. on the other hand, um, i'm not sure the donald trump is going to present a really attractive alternative because there is every likelihood that he'll be a convicted felon. before people go to the polls in november of next year. well, i mean, that's right, that's a separate separate issue to what we're talking about here. and as we know, the more times he's a di did the higher his full ratings go and it goes eugene debs around the no, no, no, no, i'm on general pop. no, amongst african americans and latinos recently, well then would have raised, the democrats writ large and not among the public writ large. right? that's as i say, that is a kind of a separate issue. but i go to ask you, then again about this disparity apart from cornell, west drum, just abide and all these people support israel. yeah, there's no difference. so there's a complete on the, on their own garza, there's

a complete disconnect here, isn't that because if you have 58 percent of americans against israel successive counter attack and you have a 100 percent of the candidates running in the election to support the slaughter of children and gaza, where right, what's happened to democracy in the united states as well? again, foreign policy is not made the distance true unless the americans are dying. new large numbers. i want to make that copy yet unless that's the case. unfortunately, i think this is one of the really bad things about the distortions of the american political system is very hard to get foreign policy to be a major issue in electoral politics. especially the presidential level. it just really doesn't happen. certainly right or, or is, are and policy embedded here because of the gains in military lives. militarism in terms of the sheriff prices of lucky martin northrop grumman boeing and the radio. and okay, so yeah, there is a, there is a level of corrupt in built corruption that is part of that. however,

as you say, i think all the major parties are so really in, generally in favor of that kind of thing, including the drum. i do think there's a difference between trump's attitude towards israel and the causes and, and politics which is that, whereas both of them would support the war and guys, and as you say rightly the slaughter of policing is about the same children is going on. now. i do think a buying is going to be quicker than trump would have been to say that's in. the other thing is if you look at the attitude towards the occupation towards alex issue, trump is all in on that exceptionally invited israel to the next 30 percent of the west bank and take the jordan valley. and all that biden is taking a different attitude, at least a mountain theory. so they're not exactly on the same page. totally, but on the guise of war. yes. uh, at the moment it's hard to drawing you distinctions. i don't think it's going to drive people at large. large numbers of people are with us. what about the reputation of the arab world?

i mean, they saw what put in did as from his terms as regards protecting russian speakers in east and you. great. and he went in that full continues, and he doesn't care about major nation bullying of millions of dollars into ukraine to fight a war that increasing he looks so like a creating a defeated valencia illness. why is it? well then, let us zalinski denies it to a stalemate and denies to enjoy your illusion. but a stalemate can deny any thing as much as he likes. it's a stone it. but uh, but when it comes to gaza, the arab world, while putting ceasefire resolutions of the un doesn't militarily intervene to attack israel. what do you think? the latin america, advocates of east asia and the global south. think of the fact that the why is it that the other countries when they go to protect that people, is it well, the odds won't as well among other, among many, many other things. um, israel has

a large arsenal of nuclear weapons and ukraine did not. so, you know, there is a certain degree of, i would argue that once israel became a nuclear power, and especially when egypt signed a piece for you with israel, the idea of a conventional war between 0 and arab states was essentially taken off the table, which is why these attacks on israel are pursued by non state actors that don't have an address that are not amenable to the kind of counter attacks for israel that would involve things like really clear weapons or, or um, tank divisions and stuff like that. so you've got israel and force to go into gaza on the ground, which is what, how much was hoping for, i think, to engage in the kind of close quarter. how's the, how's combat that favors? guerrilla groups and insurgents over regular armies. if you're out in the middle of appeal with tanks and airplanes and tactical nuclear weapons, well the, the bigger the conventional army, the, you know,

the more advantage of tests. but as you get into urban combat, you, you find real advantages for girl afford? well, the united states has lost every more its 740 on, on the curriculum. and basis like that for vietnam, almost in all countries do is not just the united states. and so we union last, the israel is last. so you're ready. i was lost in human. you can't do it. you know, they all give a rush or in chechnya or i suppose would be one. yeah. rush i don't but, but i think so just tell me what you think. well, this a growing friendship between saudi arabia renew, ron, off to the broken piece, because we saw often october, the 7th, unprecedented foreign minister visit from iran. you see in the middle of the night, saudi arabia, we see the apartment is that right? easy visiting. and vs them in the over the weekend. how is it? that's so cool. i mean, we already, obviously the president, the side of syria visit here in the u. a. yeah. how is it the saudi arabia has

suddenly become so close to iran in this way? that clearly would uh, annoy washington. well, i'm not sure how annoyed washington is. i think they can live with it. because what the 2 countries are coming together on is a quest for stability, both iran and sony, or that'd be a right now for their own entirely separate reasons. launched regional calm and stability. and i think the meetings and, and the, oh i see conference is designed to kind of try and get stability in the region to, to get everyone on the same page. formerly that you know, wouldn't help anybody if iran was dragged into this conflict. if the united states came into the conflict, if it says by law was dragged into the conflict or sure itself, man, or whatever that it really, you know, it's bad enough with, as you rightly say, the slaughter palestinian children. and because of that,

that's bad enough. we don't need additional um, you know, conflicts. so i think what's going on here is a meeting of the minds between eod and head on that it's much better to negotiate and use diplomacy under current circumstances. then to fight even through the process, right? even through client groups, and as i say i, how may i ask who acted, look, it did not act as in your on the in proxy group on october 7. anyone who says that is completely full of it as well. also, in this case, even though iran has a lot of sway over his butler, it didn't put any pressure on it one way or the other thing that's totally obvious . so it's up to you guys just the police see this growing. if we see this growing reproachful around the region, maybe even with the lebanese resistance groups. yeah. and of course, the multi polar, well, that is much talked about in bricks capital is, is it just a bad time that and that timing for the palestinians? they've got it will, i mean, i don't know how many numbers we're talking about old 2000000 killed. is it not

a bad time for the palestinians that whilst this new world is emerging? it's a much it just the time when you had this puppet, the us in, uh, hold up here. maybe a. yeah, maybe maybe that's an interesting argument. and it really heard that before i, i think there's some truth to it. there is no address at the moment other than the washington, the palestinians can go to effectively to seek relief. but the washington provides 0 released. in fact, it's supporting these rights and i'm showing that it may at some point start to i don't know a police road back, but it hasn't yet. so you know, the, yeah, you may well argue that, you know, between so it'd be under the cold war. and the full emergence of a multi polar world order. that's a very bad trying to be as weak and vulnerable as the colors. and the, and people are, which would suggest them that maybe how much need them is a big mistake in courting a big more with

a 0 at the moment. now you can make other cases, but that's one way of looking at it. another way of looking at it is to say that even if there were multiple or order, if there isn't any evidence on the table that anyone is terribly interested in, in paddling israel tooth and nail to protect all the experience in a, you know, that sort of the, the working thesis behind thomas's a attack on, on october 7th, clearly, and that may not change even when there are multiple, there were lower. okay. well, just briefly and finally, we wouldn't be talking if it wasn't for the i'm as a tax. uh, wrigley, but does it mean as this new world begins, the end of israel, as we look forward to the future, and because all these other countries are clearly, i mean, is rarely subsidized by the united states. i think the economy would collapse without the american financing. we see the end with the israel on,

on the cards. i don't, i don't think is there a would collapse with out american subsidies? i think it would have real trouble with our trade with the west in general, but it had a pretty good growth rate if you know, until this war broke out a 3rd in or for, for in the whole we cd and the economy is pretty strong. they, they get a lot of military support from united states and i'm private cash, but i think they could survive without american subsidies whether they could survive without american military and diplomatic support how long they could survive and under what conditions. i think that's an open question. i think their biggest, the biggest stretch of them is their own policies is their own attitude. and actually it was towards the palestinians. october 7th, was the inevitable result of the sum total of his riley policies. since 1967, and especially since 2007 divide and rule of the policy is to keep the p a and the

ppo low empower, is about to empower in the west bank. very weak, very corrupted, very institutionally feeble with waiting for talks. it never happened and to keep him nice and power in gaza, funnelling money to it, and, and facilitating it while at the same time, repeatedly, periodically attacking it to keep it. we can then can change through these wars and you know, i mean, this is the kind of a, a policy of keeping millions and millions of people without citizenship in any country. and without a state of their own indefinitely. we know horizon for any change in the foreseeable future. the guarantee is bloodshed. it guarantees blood loss that guarantees a kind of infuriated uprising by colonial subjects. we haven't seen it globally for a long time, maybe since the, for letting me in algeria. but the, you know, the period between 18501960 was filled in the world with this kind of uprising is whether it's the, the indian me, uh, the boxer rebellion,

the mile miles, the land. so many others. i mean, i'm just throwing out a few of those gores. i'll give you that. yeah, we'll have to have you on to remember more of those different move with doug, just saying image, thank you very important. thank you. all, you're welcome. thank you very much. that's it. for the show and condolences from the whole team here, we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then, keep in touch of our last social media. if it's not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going underground tv on rumbled up combed, watching you and old episodes of going undergrad ccf the the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings,

except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to place a trust rather than to the area. i mean, with the artificial intelligence we have some of the theme in the a robot must protect his phone, existence was on the same wrong, just don't have to say power to advocate and engagement trails. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground,

the the is really troops attempt to force their way deeper into does this sits a put face. fierce resistance from palestinian militants would say they'd rather die than give up victory. trade scales, an official state 5 babies have died due to power account said guns as large as possible and more lives are on the line. israel has sent some fuel to the facility, but the director of the hospital saves it's nowhere near enough. found in southern guns at least 13 people are reported killable by the latest. this really are a strikes on the city of con eunice. we hear from one of.