or in ukraine and middle use, in fact, us cannot afford to have most multiple from the board and certainly not to engage your call. foundational stands with china. so i think some decision maker in washington now wanted to tell him about the tension, little bit with china, so that can concentrate into other theaters of the world and particularly in the ongoing crisis the over policy time. and do you expect any breakthroughs? we can always living hope, you know, like winston churchill said, roger, i is better the war war. so even the act of talking is better than not talking. so that doesn't say as a child's merit. american, my hope is this could be potentially be off turn in the us china relationship. but as we have seen again and again, us politicians say over promise and under deliver. so we'll have to wait and see. we went into age when he finds the joint enterprise i'll take, contributes

a culture. thank you very much. thank you. i'm next on all the international action . what time do you have? so they stepped sort of going on the ground on back the top of them. the i'm option redundancy and welcome back to going underground bull gosh, to go around the world from the arabian peninsula where a bleed is continue to oppose nato a nation refusals to back us these 5, i mean the smoldering gods after a weekend of global protest against washington's nature, wyoming of israel to sort of thousands of on thousands of palestinian children. let's go straight to washington dc, dr. as a new patient senior resident scholar, the gulf states institute in washington, an author of the book,

what's wrong with the one say to gender? why ending the occupation and peace with israel is still the palestinian national gold joins right now. thanks so much dr. mitch for coming on. you've studied the region for a for years. how surprised to you and can you ever remember egyptian president sitting egyptian president refusing to even meet with visiting us presidency, of course, refused as did the king of jordan, whilst beast and mediterranean was being filled with jo biden's warships or yeah, it's been a very, very long time, i mean, i think you'd have to go back to the era of the, of the 1st of all, for the 199091 iraq in visual quit. and us response of that fine senior, our believe is not necessarily egyptian once, but senior, our leaders avoiding the united states, avoiding the scene with the american senior officials, etc. so it's been a long time. this is a some onslaught by israel is, is extraordinary for sure. and um,

i think at the moment that the meeting was due to happen, there was such a ramping up of decibel. this thing is the guys that it was predictable and not terribly surprising to see that happen. since then, you've seen my florida best meeting with the anthony blinking and other arab leaders meeting with senior american officials. so i think, you know, the wrist is, is temporary, but it was politically necessary at the time for the, our leaders to do that in the same way that by themselves and political imperative on several levels as the american president, but also as the leader of the democratic party to sort of bear hug israel. and um, you know, so everyone is kind of disgusted with each other for doing things that are based on politically advantageous. do you think it's a perfectly repairable this because the you a, with china repeatedly but to motions versus 5 back by the un secretary general, of course. i mean, what do you think will stop it being repairable?

because obviously the united states has been bombing syria in the past few days. if that starts to ramp up, do you think that might be a red line for jesus? um, no, i don't think so because i think the, the us attacks with syria and, and he's going to us doesn't iraq are going to be very limited. and in response to the attacks by probably around, even militias on, on american forces. i think the ice age isn't an interesting position where the one thing that all 4 major actors in this equation, in terms of the war spreading from gaza. that is to say the us iran, israel. and here's my la all agreed sort of from october 8th until now that it would be much better if the were getting spread, if it were contained to gaza and that that's probably why it hasn't spread and why one. on the other hand, there's a lot of activity by probably around the in militia groups of his belong to

liberties border by that time has by line iraq, by groups with syria to peck at the country to make, to do stationary. and it'd be cash and make sure that they have some kind of indemnification against charges that they didn't do anything at all to help how much or to help the palace. it's so they can point to things that they've done. and i think the americans are trying to draw a red line and say, all right, so there's going to be a response, but it's all going to be very measured. and especially if you look at the violence between israel and his butler around 11 use border, then both sides been very careful to stay within what you might call the rules of engagement that have a pertain since 2006, 2007. since the last big war that they had, and they're speaking within about a mile of the border in both cases and haven't been too many people killed on either side and, and i think there is an understanding that there will be violence, but that nobody really wants an all out war with the exception of some ass,

which was kind of counting on it, but they're not going to get it. they probably why do you call them probably range in malicious because clearly how much i'm a supported american policy in syria. and his will, a very keen on saying it is not taking orders from, i mean, i suppose one could say britain is a proxy of the united states or western european or do says proxy. i said pro, you could certainly call britain a pearl american country. you could call all the golf countries pro american countries, right. so it's not an insult to say that someone is probably wrong and when they're connected deeply to iran. i, i don't think that his baldes taking orders for me around it all. in fact, my impression is that uh no sir, i allowed the leader of his butler got put in a very difficult position. because and, you know, when he sort of consulted with the romulans i, i believe that is a lot of evidence to suggest is that the, he was told do what it, by the, by your, on what you like. it's up to you, we're not going to show you what to do. and that then sort of denied him the

indemnification of being able to say, well, but you're wrong. so it was all on him and he's i think independently decided and so not a great idea how much is a line with the around to some extent. but it's also not. and i don't think there's any doubt that needs or iran and the supreme national security council in to had on, nor his by law had any inkling of the attractive her mass was planning. on october 7th, they, they'd heard vague things about a potential action against israel. and they kind of generally said that might be a good idea and they might support it. but, you know, there's no reason to take that the, how may i ask, who was acting as a proxy of your, um, it was not, it was acting on its own which and yet, and yet if you watch american mainstream media and it's giving you a misfortune, to do so there, i think the you as why then the frame? no why. it's what well, a lot of people do, of course, why. yeah, they,

why the framing endlessly about the fact that this is iran in the binding centers, warships to threaten the wrong when in fact, they're not even in the pound of whether they're actually openly east administrating. yeah, it was, it was a kind of an intimidation, saber rattling against is by law not, not against here on the look, the american broadcast media, you have to excuse it for a 2nd. the rep or charged not the commentary, but the rep or charging the major papers in the, in your tons of washer and post of wall street journal. as much more serious. but when you turn on the television, you get a bunch of dumb down garbage. okay? and that's just the way it is. that's why i never turned on television under any circumstances. and you will lose brain cells if you do in this country. you encourage cnn that say, yeah, absolutely. oh, hard. yeah, except when i'm on, which is very rare. i'm but yeah, i include of course, very much the look. they're trying to spoon feed the public,

a simple narrative that usually involves goodies and bodies. and when it gets complex, it gets complex between republicans and democrats, or between republicans or other republicans, or democrats, or other democrats. the notion that there was a complex world out there where how mass can be, you know, close to it on, in some ways, but far from it in others. and it doesn't act as a proxy at all, where his butler sometimes does act as a client of iran. but in this case, clearly they were not getting any instructions from the iranians, which was actually, i would argue, problematic for the leader of his butler. it made it more difficult for him to say no, which he did is just simple. so it's done. don't, don't you know, it was a viewer to tell people the whole story. you'd have to begin at the beginning because most americans know nothing about the middle east and the care less actually. and it's easier just to tell them you're on bad. the militias are bad,

probably around the emotions of it. also the pro american countries are not great and they may also be bad. israel is, is good, except occasionally, and that the us is always there. there is you're given they con, hi, thank on hi, be images that are coming out. uncensored of a dead killed children. yeah. children killed by american weapons from the guard going through. and it has had an impact on thinking, especially among democrats, where you now got 46 percent of democrats liberals in united states. thinking that the us has gone too far and supporting is, are you still have 3 quarters of republicans backing israel all the way until he has responded correctly? there is a degree of hawkish unless there, there is a degree of racism there. there is a degree of islamic phobia there, there all kinds of things that are bubbling around in the republican party that skew it to be pro is 0 even when there are these images of piles and dead children

. but it's causing a lot more discombobulated than among democrats. and you'll see that the vitamin restrictions interesting towards, you know, more and more calls on israel for a, you know, at a a ceasefire. they call it a humanitarian pause. that's a, that's a euphemism for a temporary spar. they're, they're talking about different things though, is there, i was talking about an hour or 2. you know, i say is talking about a day or 2, or 3 or 4. so they're not on the old page really. they've lost the entire world in this refusing goals or a c type. is that the last thing that lasting legacy of october, the 7th? i mean they've been many, many atrocities. obviously since 9048 is the last thing, the legacy of the i'm a lead attack on october the 7th. not so much putting palestine front and center again in the global imagination by creating and rejuvenating a huge tension between the peoples of western europe in the united states,

against the latest. ah, no, i don't think it's that. exactly. i mean, there's a disagreement, but it's not, you know, people aren't able to, i don't really care about guys or that much. they're not, that much know, there are pockets who do we are the americans, the american muslims, a very progressive left elements on the right. the on the say honestly, frankly, the actually somebody great, you know who, who got many jews as well. we saw a huge yeah. yeah that's, that's about us obviously. and what that includes a lot, a lot of progressive less uh people in the united states are jewish and they are pro palestinian and antivirus and they've been very loud. uh and yeah, definitely includes them up. so you've got this mix of people, but they're sort of fringe. when you put together the whole sort of $350000000.00 americans, they don't add up to it. they're loud, but they don't add up to a very big number. most americans are, you know, they're not happy with what's going on unless they're racist republicans,

but basically, democrats are not heavy, but they're not going to abandon by the way that seemed to me. uh and i mean, i saw paul, i saw a post anti defamation in the ball. 40 percent of americans think israel treats palestinians like the nazi street of jews. i so 58 percent of the times of israel, 58 percent of americans against the excessive counter attack. and by israel, these a big problem number is a day. so that even a massive these massive disparities between the house of representatives a censuring, negotiated delay. yeah, exactly. so that's right, and there is, there is a noticeable gap. this is what i'm talking about. especially on the left of center set or left and then all the way to the left. in other words, the, the, on the, in the among democrats, there, there is a visible distinction between what the party and national leaders are saying and what half of the democrats are. thank you know, and that's very much clear. on the other hand, um, as i say,

i think there are not that many people who are going to go to the polls in 2024, looking at donald trump as the alternative. and they're going to say, well, they always bug. there will be folks, especially in pockets of our, the american in america, most of us. but i think in the end it has a limited residence unit, even though it's a foreign policy in united states is always a secondary issue unless americans are getting killed. right. so when, when you're off or is going on with, you know, after $911.00 when and things like that, then it's a big deal. okay? so there's a dimensions of elections. you know, his image, i'll stop you. the more from the senior residents call or the are a gulf states institute in washington after this break the

the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the senior resident scholar, the r gulf states institute doctors and the bishop, a doctor and best we were just talking uh before the break about the fact that people don't care that much about foreign policy ahead of the next general election . which attitude of which the prosecuted opposition needed. donald trump is clearly leading in the polls. they will of course, care when it comes to raise the oil prices and hawaii or impact all of anything. yeah. this, this home us attack occurs and the ensue in cottage in garza, occurs amidst an environment in which the saudis refuse repeatedly bite in schools to increase production of oil right at clearly normalization with israel is off the

table. you see what's happening in gaza together with the global south support of russia in the us war, 3 grain creating big tensions for the, for the dollars in people's pockets in the united states as well. we'll have to see it. it's over determine the value of the currency and the question of inflation and inflation is compared to wages. is incredibly complicated. so the point to be over determine, no one can really predict that even the best economists are very shaky ground when they from the last game right now. um, there is a, a, a full employment situation in the united states, but inflation has down down the value of wages. so it's a mixed bag for ordinary people. they've been, economy writ large, is very strong. but people kind of in a way are suffering if they just assume that they're going to have

a job and they do have more, then they are quite upset about how far their dollars go. only on that. so i'm not sure the donald trump is going to present a really attractive alternative because there is every likelihood that he'll be a convicted felon. before people go to the polls in november of next year. well, i mean, that's right, and that's a separate separate issue to what we're talking about here. and as we know, the more times he's a di, did the higher his full ratings go and it goes eugene debs around the republican problem or no, no, no, no, i'm on general, public know, i months, african americans and latinos, a reasonably well then would have raised the democrats writ large and not among the public writ large. well, anyway, that's as i say, that is a kind of separate issue. but i go to ask you then again about this disparity apart from cornell, west drum, just abide and all these people support israel. yeah, there's no difference. so there's a complete on the, on their own garza, there's

a complete disconnect here, isn't the, because if you have 58 percent of americans against israel is excessive counter attack and you have a 100 percent of the candidates running in the election to support the slaughter of children and gaza, where right, what's happened to democracy in the united states as well? again, foreign policy is not made the distance true unless the americans are dying in large numbers. i want to make that copy yet unless that's the case. unfortunately, i think this is one of the really bad things about the distortions of the american political system is very hard to get foreign policy to be a major issue in electoral politics. especially the presidential level just really doesn't that strongly read or, or is, are and policy embedded here because of the keynesian military lives. militarism in terms of the shed prices of lucky martin northrop grumman boeing and the radio. and okay, so yeah, there is a, there is a level of corruption in built corruption. that is part of that. however,

as you say, i think all the major parties are so really in, generally in favor of that kind of thing, including the drum. i do think there's a difference between trump's attitude towards israel and the palestinians, and empire, which is that. whereas both of them would support the war and guys, and as you say, rightly the slaughter of policing is about the same children is going on. now i do think a binding is going to be quicker than trump would have been to say that's. and the other thing is if you look at uh the attitude towards the occupation towards alex issue, trump is all in on that exceptionally invited israel to the next 30 percent of the west bank and take the jordan valley. and all that binding is taking a different attitude, at least a mountain theory. so they're not exactly on the same page total, but on the gaza war. yes. uh, at the moment it's hard to drawing you distinctions. i don't think it's going to drive people at large, large numbers of people or the pulse. what about the reputation of the arab world?

i mean, they saw what pigeon did as from his terms as regards protecting russian speakers in east, in ukraine. he went in that full continues and he doesn't care about they do a nation bullying of millions of dollars into ukraine to fight a war that increasingly looks so like a grading a defeated valencia on it. why is it? but then while across the landscape denies, it's a stalemate and denies what joy is illusion. but a stalemate can deny any thing as much as he likes it to stay on it. but. but when it comes to gaza, the arab world, while putting ceasefire resolutions of the un doesn't militarily intervene to attack israel. what do you think? latin america, african, southeast asia and the global south. think of the fact that why is it that the other countries when they go to protect the people as well, the odds won't as well among other, among many,

many other things. um, israel has a large arsenal, nuclear weapons and ukraine did not. so, you know, there is a certain degree of, i would argue that once israel became a nuclear power, and especially when egypt signed a piece for you with israel, the idea of a conventional war between 0 and arab states was essentially taken off the shape, which is why these attacks on israel are pursued by an onset actors a don't have an address that aren't on amenable to the kind of counter attacks for israel that would involve things like nuclear weapons or, or um, tank divisions and stuff like that. so you've got israel and force to go into gaza on the ground, which is what, how much was hoping for, i think, to engage in the kind of close quarter. how's the, how's combat that favors? guerrilla groups and insurgents over regular armies. if you're out in the middle of a field with tags and airplanes and tactical nuclear weapons, well the,

the bigger the conventional army, the, you know, the more value tests. but as you get into urban combat, you, you find real advantages for gary la ford while the united states has lost every more it's ever fully on the, on the curriculum and basis like that for v, as i'm almost did. all countries do is i'm just the united states and so we union last, the israel is last, so you're ready. i was lost in human. you can't do it. i mean, i'll give a rush or in chechnya or i suppose would be one. yeah. rush. i don't but, but i think so just tell me what you think more of these a growing friendship between saudi arabia renew, ron often the broken piece because we saw often october, the 7th, unprecedented foreign minister visit from iran. you see in the middle of the night, saudi arabia, we see the apartment, is that right? easy visiting. and b s and in the over the weekend. how is it? that's so cool. i mean, we already, obviously the president, the side of syria visit here in the u. a. yeah. how is it the saudi arabia is

suddenly become so close to iran in this way? that clearly would uh, annoy washington. well, i'm not sure how annoyed washington is. i think they can live with it because what the 2 countries are coming together on is a quest for stability. both iran and sony or they are right now for their own entirely separate reasons. launched regional calm and stability. and i think the meetings and, and the, oh i see conference is designed to kind of try and get stability in the region to, to get everyone on the same page. formerly that you know, wouldn't help anybody if iran was dragged into this conflict. if the united states came into the conflict, if it goes by law, was dragged into the conflict or sure itself, man, or whatever that it really, you know, it's bad enough with, as you rightly said, the slaughter palestinian children. and because of that,

that's bad enough. we don't need additional um, you know, conflicts. so i think what's going on here is a meeting of the minds between eod and head on that it's much better to negotiate and use diplomacy under current circumstances. then to fight even through a process, right? even through client groups and as i say, i have also acted look, it did not act as in your on the and proxy group on october 7. anyone who says that is completely full of it as well. also, in this case, even though iran has a lot of sway over his butler, it didn't put any pressure on it one way or the other thing that's totally obvious . so it's up to you guys just the police see this growing. if we see this growing, we're approachable around the region, maybe even with the lebanese resistance groups. yeah. and of course, the multi polar, well, that is much talked about in bricks capital is, is it just a bad time that and bad timing for the palestinians? they've got a whole, i mean, i don't know how many numbers we're talking about old 2000000 killed. is it not

a bad time for the palestinians that whilst this new world is emerging? it's a much it just the time when you had this puppet, the us in the hold up here, maybe a. yeah, maybe maybe that's an interesting argument and really heard that before i, i think there's some truth to it. there is no address at the moment other than the washington, the palestinians can go to effectively to seek relief. but washington provides 0 released. in fact, it's supporting is rarely, it's an actual rally. it may at some point start to, don't know, a police road back, but it hasn't yet. so, you know, the, yeah, you may well argue that, you know, between, so it'd be under the cold war. and the full emergence of a multi polar world order. that's a very bad trying to be as weak and vulnerable as the policy and people are, which would suggest them that maybe have asked me to miss a big mistake in courting a big more with

a 0 at the moment. now you can make other cases, but that's one way of looking at it. another way of looking at it is to say that even if there were a multi pull or order, if there isn't any evidence on the table that anyone is terribly interested in, in paddling israel tooth and nail to project products. and it's in a, you know, that sort of the, the working piece as behind thomas's a attack on, on october 7th, clearly. and that may not change even when there are multiple, there were lower. okay. well, just briefly and finally, we wouldn't be talking if it wasn't for the i'm as a tax. uh wrigley. but does it mean as this new world begins, the end of israel, as we look forward to the future, and because all these other countries are clearly, i mean, is rarely subsidized by the united states. i think the economy would collapse without american financing. but let me see the end with the israel on,

on the cards. i don't, i don't think is there a would collapse without american subsidies? i think it would have real trouble with our trade with the west in general. but it had a pretty good growth rate if you know, until this war broke out a 3rd or 4th through the whole we cd and the economy is pretty strong. they, they get a lot of military support from united states and, and private cash. but i think they could survive without americans subsidies, whether they could survive without american military and diplomatic support how long they could survive and under what conditions. i think that's an open question . i think their biggest, the biggest threat to them is their own policies is their own added. she wouldn't actions towards the palestinians. october 7th was the inevitable result of the sum total of israeli policies. since 1967, and especially since 2007 divide and rule of the policy is to keep the p a and the

ppo low empower, is about to empower in the west bank. very weak, very corrupted, very institutionally feeble with waiting for talks. it never happened and to keep him nice and power in gaza, funnelling money to it, and, and facilitating it while at the same time, repeatedly, periodically attacking it to keep it. we can then can change through these wars and you know, i mean, this is the kind of a policy of keeping millions and millions of people without citizenship in any country and without a state of their own indefinitely. we know horizon for any change and look for single future. the guarantee is bloodshed. it guarantees blood loss that guarantees a kind of infuriated uprising by colonial subjects. we haven't seen it globally for a long time. maybe since the, for letting me in algeria. but the, you know, the period between 18501960 was filled in the world with this kind of uprising is whether it's the, the indian me, uh, the boxer rebellion,

the mile miles, the land. so many others. i mean, i'm just throwing out a few of those gores. i'll get that. yeah, we'll have to have you on to remember more of those different move. it's doug, just saying image. thank you very important. thank you. oh, you're welcome. thank you very much. that's it for the show and condolences from the whole team here, we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then, keep in touch of our last social media pittsville incentive in your country and had to have the channel going. i'll be going to be on rolled up, combed, watching you and old episodes of going underground ccf the

the whole thing done. so shutting down one by one, the big severe field and medicine shortages and intense. it's really silly to say that the health care system can barely stand on to the question. the hospital is full of displaced people. the health care system is dilapidated infection control measures are almost non existent here. the is really fruit attempt to impose the way the but it's a gauze fit type of face to face resistance from palestinian militants and say they've gone to dice and give up the territory thousands down to with the texas state capital in full or directly with palestine to for the us administration and congress such the full support for next.