smiles the assistance of the guest and that's so so what we're seeing in my view is an attempt to reverse engineer concern from the united states for the plight of the palestinian population. not necessarily because of they they, they're concerned about it. after all, most of the munitions being dropped, most of the political licensing for this punitive biblical operation by you as well as coming from the united states. come from that part of the, at mid atlantic if you like. so we're seeing an attempt to use language and reverse engineering plausibility, it's in the art of manage. so let's look at the news for now, but to stay with us next on the world's apart. asana talks with our guest about the war spot by israel and ukraine and how they may be driven by the same collect the piece of some victims and entitlements bye for now. the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the welcome to world to part the worst board bar is 0. and by ukraine seem to have little in common beyond the american military support, but there they may be driven by very similar collective ethers of victim quotes and title and rule just in the force of the 2nd world war. in both cases, national identities have been derived from enforced and by this sense of and i was essential thread is a reconciliation of his neighbors even possible. within such

a world view, we'll discuss it. i'm now joined by yucca fratkin emeritus professor of history at the university of montreal. professor duncan is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. my pleasure. now you've written several books on the interplay of religious and political narrative and the history of modern israel. and one of the most interesting discoveries for me personally, was how crucial the jews from the russian empire and later on from the soviet union were to the rise of design is ideology. especially because they weren't particularly religious. and here they happened to be one of the strong just supporters of the idea of the holy or promised land. how do you explain this unusual synergy? well, you have to realize that the boost founders of the state of israel and before that design,

this project empower stein came from the say bail of settlement. and the russian empire, which is today, is your grand model of bill in russia. and both a group of books, they came to the window post time because of violence in the russian and by a violent directed ad choose the 1st wave. serious wave was after the assassination of alexander the 2nd in 1881. and the 2nd one was around the 1st draft for evolution is 19 o 5 and uh, what was really a traumatizing for many people in the bail of settlement. is that when a while on the alexander the 2nd, there were certain liberal reforms including as you know, liberation of the shares, but also concerning jews. so there was a future for jews and the russian empire. and doing pilgrims emerged in

the, in the wake of the assassination of the emperor. it shook really shook the lot of jews. now you have to realize that we have talking about millions of people in the bill of settlement. and they lived largely in small towns and then those small towns. there was tremendous diversity between very observant traditional jews and a very active, a secularized use. but i'm like, they're like jews and friends for example, they couldn't move to st. petersburg couldn't move to moscow and become intellectuals and become a she joined the russian main street because of the bill of settlement. so that was a rough can do i understand you correctly and for them this idea all for a while and where they can be freely themselves, where they can practice that culture, their religion,

it was truly attractive. it wasn't just the political project for them. it was to some extent religious, but it was also a way of um, just living with dignity. you know, i'll get to it in a moment. i'll answer your question. so these young people were, i tell the secularized that would definitely so many of them were militantly easiest. and many of them acquired experience of political terrorism among the social revolutionaries, among other religion groups in russia. so this is the youth that went to palestine. they wanted to build a new society and you know, and new language in a new man who would be unlike jews on the pale of settlement with the strong muscular, almost area if i may say. so toby image was to build a very, very different society at the node. so side j,

and i think for people who are familiar with soviet history, the week of nice, some of the traits a. so to build that society, they didn't want to join the existing economy and society and post i'm, they build a separate society. and in order to do so, they have to, they had a wonderful socialist slogans like a wheel coke or the land with labor. well, it sounds really good. what really meant it meant good job should to give them to jewish settlers who went to co signed. so it created tremendous antagonism and facility from, from our schools. and i know that you've written in your books that they had considerable success in penetrating the highest echelons of power and moving is

really politics to the nationalist to ride over many decades. now, what do you think allow them to, on the one hand, be so successful and so forth, right? in achieving what they want to achieve. i'm here at the same time to preserve that sounds of alter in security. and then as the central fab, that i think is still very key to the far right ideology. they wanted to leave the past behind, but lower succeeds doing that. so they brought with them to palestine, 2 important experiences. one that is a political terrorism that i mentioned to the other one was the sense of powerlessness, due to the programs. and that's very explosive mix. and you can see that till today . that's all the want to get those intrepid military option. all the other weird

dimensions. so this is what was brought from palestine and of course of the feeling go victim who was amplified as a result of the not see genocide during the 2nd. now as you rolled, they were largely estranged as trashed from 2 days. and they consider themselves to be of jewish nationality and were often quite unabashed it about ethnic nationalism and the the use of force to impose it. and it reminds me a little bit of the current to ukrainian nationalism, which is also sort of more a religious done political in nature. and by that i mean that it's favors devotion . and this sort of the passion more than the actual practicality for which the jews have been known for over a century. so i don't wanna sort of be very stereotypical, but typically does. people are associated with the ability to business to be practical, to, you know, make

a reasonable compromises. do you see any similarities there? will they come from the same area of what eastern europe were? ethnic nationalism was rife. at the end of the 19th and 20th centuries and nationalism was the, the foundation of which many of the states uh oh, following the river side treaty were established on the border lands of soviet union. as i don't think that there is much comparison as far as 2 days world is concerned. because uh, in the, in israel, a boat which i know more than about the ukraine in this room. it has been cultivated for many years of the school programs. everything was done in order to

prove that anti semitism is endemic of the world. that without the state of state for themselves, they would be exterminated, they would suffer. this is exactly what i think most jewish israel is believe. uh and i think i so that's why the situation with ukraine is there a different i think that we're not talking about the threat of, of training is being expelled from a train with the that's not the issue. whereas in the, in the case of his ro, my many menus really, jews believes that the only safe place for jews is israel. of course, the no tragic attack on the 7th of october by from us shocks that believe, very serious that we'll see when well, when it's all over, we'll see what effect it will have on this railway society. i don't know if you would agree with that,

but i think what central to this far right sensibilities is this not only the trauma concept, and i think it's hard to find the honestly of people who haven't suffered some kind of trauma. but there's some kind of sort of sticking to that trauma as if it's it's, it's becomes not only sacred but social 2 national identity. and god forbid it's attempted to be healed because that's me. and it's that would be perceived as a betrayal of national identity. is there something, i mean, how do you explain that phenomenon and do you think it's been manipulated for political reasons? making sure that trauma collective trauma remains forever and ever. and the people who remain forever agreed. i think there is something of it because in most is early schools. there are classes that teach history and a certain way. uh, which leads old years history to the establishment of the state of israel and uh, and they lived happily ever after it shows, this is the uh,

the idea end of the same time. uh, there's a lot of as a teaching concern in the powerlessness of the jews be, attend the bailiff settlement and russia, or during the 2nd world war in europe. because in europe, we have to remember not only germany read though, in most of the massacres, took place of actually outside of germany. and there were not too many germans ended by b, r and kia. so there were a lot of local people doing that. and i think that is don't show dorothy in israel with the conclusion that the only safe place is israel. so that trauma, in a way, works politically in a very important matter. because sign is a political sign is a, is based on the idea that jews are not based on viable to be

a jew elsewhere. of course, today i running kelly the largest concentration of israeli jews emigres from is rowe r. as in girl egg. now i don't want to labor this parallel between the ukraine and israel too much, but i think in practical terms, if we consider practical politics today and both the governments in israel and in ukraine and now largely constrained by these academic nationalism discords. because you know, football edition that makes the room for maneuver, a very limited done to some extent. they're always forced to up to continue opting of the anti. and it's very dangerous, not only for them, but also for societies at large, what can possibly dissuade either the politicians or the populations from base kind of seeing themselves in,

in those grief terms and to stimulate the idea that the perhaps you know sure we suffer them to pass, but we can move to a better future. sure. oh well, i think that in this role uh, there is an awareness that we can move to the future. the question is, what kind of future? and as i just said, some as early as for more progressive, more liberal, feel very uncomfortable in 2 days is really when, before this conflict and it over many of them have immigrated. and those who go to israel large to support the right wing trend there. so there is a continuation of that narrative of where the victims and the only place where it can be taken care of our faith is a, is a state of his role. and that's why such an innocent, apparently innocent, a suggestion that israel may become the state of all its citizens

cause us tremendous for still it in israel. because of a law of 2000 a g. a said the israel is a state of the jewish people wherever they live. so this idea of a liberal state of all that citizen, which is i think a normal concept for most countries today, well is not so normal. and israel and this, i think, really poses a problem because on the territory the israel controls more or less between to see the jordan river, about half of the population are ballasting and are but they don't have political, right? so the, that's a source of the tension on to a still a do know that that's based and why do they don't have political rights because they're a tremendous belief i think shared, but most people in israel,

most chosen as well that jews have to be in the majority and is there is no jewish majority in israel that will be the end of which professor asked him to have to take a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the the

man welcome back to home to fort smith is yak of rascan emeritus professor of history of the university of montreal. professor rep can i, i want to ask you one more question about this. as this done shall thread, as a sort of structural factor in creating and mobilizing a ethnic identity or national identity, big identity because i think it's being used not only in the ukraine or israel, but also in the united states. if we look at the american history, there's been hardly a decade over the past century when the americans didn't have a major enemy either in the soviet union or in communism or entire was more most recently in a still retiring ism. and i wonder what structural purpose do you think this as essential or outside threats serves in the american context? because unlike ukraine or israel, the united states is a large country and sending the invincible in security terms. why they're saying that americans need this to have an enemy?

well, president eisenhower, it's in decatur, the one reason why she was retiring from his position. she has mandated to us over its present of the united states, and she defined it as military industrial complex. i think they're a very practical reasons why the united states needs an enemy be and i just h as not based on ethnic nationalism, it's something else. but it, it has to believe that it's a force of good with a capital g. and of course, a very, a force of the must be somewhere for so we will, you know, less capital e. so you can change it could be, as your said, comment as a could be. so saddam hussein at one point, so whoever and no one asked the question, can saddam hussein a really good taxi united states and know what it would do and ask this question

because it's a ridiculous question. a so that for the united states, i think there is tremendous interest or very practical interest. the president biden alluded to 2 weeks ago. she said we have to tell pick crenan israel, that'll created jobs in pennsylvania, ohio. and so i'm sure you would agree with me that the american support has been instrumental for creating israel as we know it today, both military and political support. and there's been a number of publications, very interesting publications. the recent they about how israel and problem and then jewish business man, uh, throughout the 20th century, sought to influence the american discourse on israel and to propagate. besides, especially among the american christians, the somehow the 2nd coming of jews of jesus around there is intrinsically linked to the political state of israel. but i learn from your articles that you will

leave it place that this idea is not only pro design is if may be to some extent and to symmetric in what way you mentioned christian design as i'm and as good. you mentioned it because design is, i'm originally is the religious protestant, a bunch of movement which emerged in the 17th century became stronger in the 19th century. and the founder of political design is i'm the photo heard. so was influenced by one such christian scientist who was a chaplain, the british embassy in vienna. so there is a very strong connection historically. now in today's world, most supporters of israel, of r, jellicoe, christians, or christian signers both in the united states and elsewhere. and i would say that the uh, mobile ization of that support occurred largely through the efforts of being in the video who was a israel's representative of the you and,

and who spent enormous amount of time in the american states where the press for no jews. but there are a lot of christians and she build up this board, and that support i think is crucial. and that's why association of israel lord, be with the jewish lobby, is misleading. because the best to have you said a few years ago talking about an organization who was heading across channels united for israel says we are 50000000 in the united states. if we press him, then we have to remember that there are about 14 or 15000000 jews in the world, including babe as no people. i also remember your writing that this in gathering of the hebrews into palestine this idea and was driven not only by the will to sort of spit out the 2nd coming of christ, but also a free,

the cynical and to sematic a believe to sort of or intention to get rid of the local jews and get them moved over the other part of the world so that they do not leave in my own neighborhood. then that's pretty striking. inducing today's christians horse or ferment in the support of the state of israel, actually fully and sort of cognizant of the underlying factors. i think the lynch here, the link with a tend to jewish or add to semitism, is 2 fold. one or your total it right says people who are supporting design this project in most famously belford, who issued his declaration on his letter to her child in 1917. wasn't that just am i done? that was a very normal thing among the british and establishment. a few years before the both of declaration that supported zionism,

he was opposed to as minister of interior. i think the 2 immigration of russian choosing to breaking because they're alien they, they shouldn't, they will never assist to simulate and all that. so you have one person who definitely bought is that problem. now the 2nd issue is this must be a logical issue. and the code is really one is rarely journalist who wrote a book about christian sinus. put a very successful in, i quote him, you said the christian scenario crucial playoff. this 2nd coming is a play in 5 act and we chose disappear in the 4th floor. now, why is it so? because according to the scenario, when the 2nd coming occurs, jews will choose who will have to choose either except jesus as the messiah and them still being true, so to speak,

religiously or perish. we have always assumed that the religion and politics shouldn't be separated. and the other thing, these will this conflict, i'm the one in the ukraine. the, the current political difficulties in the united states do demonstrate how dangerous, if not the lead on it is to sort of try to blur the lines between politics and religion. ideology, do you think politicians at this point of time will the police to recognize the danger, if not in israel, because uh the situation is a so complicated, but let's say in the united states, do you think anyone will sort of learn the lessons from how potentially dangerous, it could be, and i'm not convinced i'm not convinced that, oh what i think what made teach is there's something that may happen in practice and blow back of sorts what i'm concerned,

and i think that's what you were alluding to is the use of shooter religious terms to describe political events and military events today. uh when the present bite and the gain in his speech 2 weeks ago spoke about adulterated evil. you know, again, we're talking not about political reality is not about the cause of that facility or whatever. but to about an existing show, struggle between good and evil. and once you push yourself in that framework, you can think go, shade with evil, you found it destroyed. and i think in 2 days, political discourse a very often we have this shooter really just know which, which in my opinion and prevent

a peaceful resolution of all kinds of conflicts of happily it mostly it occurs in west. so i don't hear much of that in other countries, but professor, how can i think that it goes even further? i'm in a, obviously it's very, it could be very instrumental for politicians to talk about the, you know, as essential threats or, you know, major evil. but the problem that they create for them. so. * so is that, um, you know, that's kind of a lecture of is easy to mobilize. you can mobilize people who are religiously sort of a passionate but to govern them. it is very hard because they don't like to being government . and i'm sure it, these really dealership at this point, just like the american leadership. fine, it's very challenging to, you know, move beyond the elections. you need both of these people for the elections, but to change a life in your country and a meaningful way they, they make it very difficult, don't you think so that they,

they themselves become an obstacle to the normal practical governance? well, it depends on what do you call now? i think that so let's say in israel b, that's where we started our discussion. it's quite normal to refer to the idea of an ethnic state that the only way we can survive is being a jewish state. whatever that means, no one knows what she was and that's why my point surviving and leaving your life with pleasure. have 2 very different things. i mean if you're always surviving. 9 you know, the quality of life is not that the good after all, i mean, and i'm sure many jews understand that the right, that regardless of the political persuasions because you will not be able to take your kids out in the park and no fear that you know some rocket through the land in the neighborhood and in order to do that, you also have to, you know, do certain amendments when it comes to your political and religious believes, i mean, all things are connected ultimately. indeed,

and i think that since it's been that many more bodies, you're a liberal cause of riley's feel uncomfortable in today's israel because it's, it's become mis sciatic. it's become there right when the national as the racist. and that's why you had the lot of minus just a lot of demonstrations against the current government the from the beginning of this year. actually, it wasn't as early as spring, and it was your insured demonstrations against danielle, connected with a traditional reform. but beyond that, behind that is the, on the ease of their own. secular leads, descendants of those russian jew, if you like, and full of shoes, who feel uncomfortable in this new environment where you cannot negotiate anything. because it's, it's all becoming a religious issue. uh,

any of them indeed want their children to go out on the park and play and that's why many of them find themselves in, in berlin or montreal. well, sooner or later, i guess an existential friend does become in her a self fulfilling prophecy. even if you're only tried to use it as a, as a political to a professor up can we have to leave in there, but i, i'm very grateful for you sharing your insights with us today. thank you and thank you for watching culture sir. again, on walter part, the, the,

the, [000:00:00;00] the, a warning disturbing images from a refugee camp and does the where at least 50 palestinians are reported killed in an as rally attacked on an un school is really airstrikes sports local palestinians to play southward away from the violence against the base journalist visits a densely crowded refugee camp here and this comes we are really living the senior living, the hunger and the international support for the palestinian in these difficult