of his neighbors even possible within such a wild view, we'll discuss it. i'm now joined by yucca wrapped him emeritus professor of history at the university of montreal. professor duncan is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. my pleasure. now you've written several books on the interplay of a religious and political narrative and the history of more than israel. and one of the most interesting discoveries for me personally, was how crucial the jews from the russian empire and later on from the soviet union were to the rise of design is ideal. and you especially because they weren't particularly religious. and here they happened to be one of the staunchest supporters of the idea of the holy or promised land. how do you explain this unusual synergy? well, you have to realize that the boost founders of the state of israel and before that design is project empower, stein came from the say,

fail of settlement and the russian empire, which is today, is your grand model of bill in russia mandibles. a group of books, they came to the window post on because of violence in the russian and by a violent directed ad jews. the 1st wave serious wave was after the assassination of alexander the 2nd in the 1881. and the 2nd one was around the 1st draft, revolution is 19 o 5 and uh, what was really a traumatizing for many people in the bill of settlement isn't when a while on the alexander the 2nd. there were certain liberal reforms including as you know, liberation of the shares, but also concerning jews. so there was a future for jews and the russian and by and doing programs emerged in

the, in the wake of the assassination of them for a it shook really shook a lot of jews. now you have to realize that we're talking about millions of people in the bill of settlement and they lived largely in small towns and then those small towns. there was tremendous diversity between very observant traditional jews and a very active, a secularized use. but i'm like, they're like jews in france for example. they couldn't move to saint petersburg. they couldn't move to moscow and become intellectuals and become a she joined the russian mainstream because of the bill of settlement. so the rep can do i understand correctly and that for them this idea all for a while and where they can be freely themselves, where they can practice that culture, their religion, it was truly attractive. it wasn't just the political project for them. it was to

some extent religious, but it was also a way of um, just living with dignity. you know, i'll get to it in a moment. i'll answer your question. so these young people were, i totally secularized that would definitely, so many of them were militantly easiest. and many of them acquired experience of political terrorism among the social revolutionaries among other religion groups in russia. so this is the youth that went to palestine. they wanted to build a new society. can you hear me? and you, language and a new man who would be unlike jews and the pale of settlement with the strong muscular, almost area. and if i may say so. so the image was to build a very, very different society at the node. so side j,

and i think for people who are familiar with soviet history, the week of nice, some of the traits. so to build that society, they didn't want to join the existing economy and society and coast time. they built a separate society and in order to do so, they have to, they had a wonderful socialist slogans like a wheel coke of the land with labor. well, it sounds really good. what really meant it meant to the job should to give them to jew settlers. cool. went to co signed. so it created tremendous antagonism and facility from the, from our school. and i know that you've written in your books that they had considerable success in penetrating the highest echelons of power and moving is really politics to the nationalist to ride over many decades. now,

what do you think allow them to on the one hand, be so successful and so forth, right? in achieving what they want to achieve. i'm here at the same time to preserve that sounds of alter in security. and then as a central grab, that i think is still very key to the far right ideology. they wanted to leave the past behind, but lower succeeds doing that. so they brought with them to palestine, 2 important experiences. one that is a political terrorism that i mentioned to the other one was the sense of powerlessness, due to the programs. and that's very explosive mix. and you can see that till today . that's all the want to get those 3 intrepid military option. on the other, we are the victims. so this is what was brought from post on and of course the,

the feeling go victim hood was amplified as a result of the not see genocide during the shuttle. now as you wrote, they were largely estranged as trashed from 2 days and they consider themselves to be of jewish nationality and were often quite unabashed it about ethnic nationalism and the use of force to impose it. and it reminds me a little bit of the current ukrainian nationalism which is also sort of more a religious done political in nature. and by that i mean that it's favors devotion . and this sort of the passion war, the actual practicality for which the jews have been known for over a century. so i don't wanna sort of be very stereotypical, but typically does. people are associated with the ability to business to be practical, to, you know, make

a reasonable compromises. do you see any similarities there? will they come from the same area of what eastern europe were? ethnic nationalism was rife. at the end of the 19th and 20th centuries and nationalism was the, the foundation on which many of the states uh oh, following the website to read, you were established on the borderlands of soviet union. as i don't think that there is much comparison as far as today's world is concerned. because in the, in israel about which i know more than about the ukraine in this room, it has been cultivated for many years of the school programs. everything was done in order to prove that anti semitism is endemic of the world. that without

the state of state for themselves, they would be exterminated, they would suffer. this is exactly what i think most jewish israel is believe. uh, and i think i and that's why the situation with ukraine, is there a difference? i think that we're not talking about the threat of training is being expelled from recruitment. the that's not the issue. whereas in the, in the case of his ro, many uh menus, really dues believes that the only safe place for jews is israel. of course, the, the tragic attack on the 7th of october by from us shocks that believe, very serious that will she, when well, when it's all over, we'll see what effect it will have on this railway society. i didn't know she would agree with that, but i think what central to this far right sensibilities is this not only the

trauma concept, and i think it's hard to find honestly of people who haven't suffered some kind of trauma. but there's some kind of sort of sticking to that trauma as if it's is, is, becomes not only sacred but social 2 national identity. and god forbid it's attempted to be healed because that's me in itself, be perceived as a betrayal of national identity. is there something, i mean, how do you explain that phenomenon and do you think it's been manipulated for political reasons? making sure that trauma collective trauma remains forever and ever end. the people who remain forever agreed. i think there is something of it because in most is early schools. there are classes that teach history and a certain way which leads old jewish history to the establishment of the state of his ro and uh, and they lived happily ever after it shows, this is the uh,

the idea end of the same time. uh, there's a lot of as a teaching concern in the powerlessness of the jews be, attend the bailiff settlement and russia, or during the 2nd world war in europe in europe, we have to remember not only germany read though in most of the massacres, took place at the actually outside of germany and they were not too many germans ended by b r and kia. so there are a lot of local people doing that. and i think that is also taught in israel with the conclusion that the only safe place is israel. so that trauma, in a way, works politically in a very important matter because sign is a political sign is a, is based on the idea that jews are not based on viable to be

a jew elsewhere. of course today, ironically the largest concentration of israeli jews emigres from is rowe r. as in girl egg. now i don't want to labor this parallel between the ukraine and israel too much. but i think in practical terms, if we consider practical politics today and both the governments and israel in ukraine and now largely constrained by these academic nationalism discords because you know, football, attrition, that makes the room for maneuver. a very limited on to some extent. they're always forced to opt to continue opting of the anti and it's very dangerous, not only for them, but also for societies at large. what can possibly dissuade either the politicians or the populations from base kind of seeing themselves in, in those grief terms and to stimulate the idea that the perhaps,

you know sure we suffer them to pass, but we can move to a better future. sure. oh, well i think that in this role uh, there is an awareness that we can move to the future. the question is what kind of future? and as i just said, some israelis for more progressive, more liberal, feel very uncomfortable in 2 days, is really when, before it is conflict and it over many of them have immigrated. and those who go to israel large to support the right wing trend there. so there is a continuation of that narrative of we are the victims and the only place where it can be taken care of our faith is a, is a state don't as ro, and that's why such an innocent, apparently innocent suggestion, the israel may become the state of all its citizens cause us

tremendous for still within israel because of a law of 2018. the southern israel is a state of the jewish people wherever they live. so this idea of a liberal estate of all that citizen, which is i think, a normal concept for most countries today, well is not so normal. and israel and this, i think, really poses a problem because on the territory the israel controls more or less between to see and the jordan river, about half of the population are boasting and are but they don't have blood but right? so the, that's the source of the tension on to a still a do know that that's based and why do they don't have political rice because they're a tremendous belief i being shared by most people in israel, most chosen as well. that fuels have to be in the majority

and is there is no jewish majority in israel that will be the end of which professor asked him to have to take a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned, the, [000:00:00;00] the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to one's a forklift it cuz yak of rascan emeritus professor of history of the university of montreal. professor up, can i want to ask you one more question about this. as this done shall thread, as

a sort of structural factor in creating and mobilizing uh, ethnic identity or national identity, big identity because i think it's being used not only in the ukraine or israel, but also in the united states. if we look at the american history, there's been hardly a decade over the past century when the americans didn't have a major enemy either in the soviet union or in communism or entire is more, most recently in a still retiring is. and i wonder what structural purpose do you think this as essential or outside threats serves in the american context? because unlike ukraine or israel, the united states is a large country and sending the invincible in security terms. why they're saying that americans need this to have an enemy? well, president eisenhower, it's in decatur, the one reason why she was retiring from his position. she has mandated to us over

its present of the united states, and she defined it as military industrial complex. i think there are very practical reasons why the united states needs an enemy be and i just h as not based on ethnic nationalism, it's something else. but it, it has to believe that it's a force of good with a capital g. and of course, if there is a force of one that must be somewhere for so we will know less capital e. so you can change it could be, as your said, comment as a move would be saddam hussein. at one point, the whoever and no one asked the question, can sit down pushing really got tax united states and no one would do and asked this question because it's a ridiculous question. a so that for the united states, i think there is tremendous interest or very practical interest. the president biden alluded to 2 weeks ago. she said we have to tell people in israel that'll

create jobs in pennsylvania, ohio. and so i'm sure you would agree with me that the american support has been instrumental for creating a israel, as we know it today, both military and political support. and there's been a number of publications, very interesting publications the recent day about how israel and problem and then jewish businessman throughout the 20th century resort to influence the american discourse on israel and to propagate beside the, especially among the american christians, the somehow the 2nd coming of jews of jesus around there is intrinsically linked to uh, the political state of israel. but i learn from your articles that you will leave it place that this idea is not only pro design is it made it to some extent and to symmetric in what way you mentioned christian design is i'm and that's good. you

mentioned it because design is, i'm originally is the religious protestant, a bunch of movement which emerged in the 17th century became stronger in the 19th century. and the founder of political design is i'm the photo heard. so was influenced by one such christian science. so it was a chaplain that the british embassy in vienna the so there is a very strong connection historically. now in today's world, most supporters of is rowe r jellicoe, christians, or christian designers, both in the united states and also or. and i would say that the uh, mobilization of that support occurred largely through the efforts of becoming a 10 year old who was a, israel's representative of d u n. and who spent enormous amount of time in american states where they're practically no jews. but there are

a lot of christians and she build up this support. and that support i think is crucial. and that's why association of israel lord, be with jewish lobby, is misleading. because the best, the hague is said a few years ago talking about an organization who was heading across channels. united for israel says we are 50000000 in the united states. if we press him, then we have to remember that there are about 14 or 15000000 jews in the world, including babe, there's no people. i also remember your writing that this in gathering of the hebrews into palestine this idea and was driven not only by the will to sort of spit out the 2nd coming of christ, but also a free, the cynical and to symmetric believe to sort of or intention to get rid of the local jews and get them moved over the other part of the world so that they do not

leave in my own neighborhood. then that's pretty striking. inducing today's christians, the horse or a firm and then the support of the state of israel actually fully and sort of cognizant of the underlying factors. i think the lynch here, the link with a empty jewish or add to semitism is 2 fold. one or your totally rights of the people for supporting design is project in most famously belford cool issue of who's dep ration his letter to ro, child in 1917. wasn't that just somebody that was a very normal thinking among the british and stablish ment, a few years before the battle for the corporation that supported zionism, he was opposed to as minister of interior. i think a to immigration of russian choosing to breaking because they're alien they,

they shouldn't, they will never assist to simulate and all that. so you have one person who definitely on board is that problem. now the 2nd issue is this must be a logical issue. and the code is really one is rarely journalist who wrote a book about christian sinus to put a very successful in i quote him, you said the christian scenario crucial. play of this 2nd coming is a play in 5 act and we just disappear in the 4th floor. now, why is it so? because according to the scenario, when the 2nd come in, a tourist, a juice will choose, you will have to choose either except jesus as the messiah and them still being true, so to speak, religiously or perish. we. we have always assumed that the religion and politics shouldn't be separated. and the other thing, these will this conflict, i'm the one in the ukraine. the,

the current political difficulties in the united states do demonstrate how dangerous, if not believable, it is to sort of try to blur the lines between politics and religion. ideology, do you think politicians at this point of time will at least to recognize the danger, if not in israel, because uh, restriction is a so complicated, but let's say in the united states, do you think anyone will sort of learn the lessons from how potentially dangerous it could be, and i'm not convinced i'm not convinced that, oh, well, i think what made teach is that there's something that may happen in practice and blow back of sorts what i'm concerned, and i think that's what you were alluding to is the use of pseudo religious terms to describe political events and military events today. uh when

the present bite and again in his speech 2 weeks ago, spoke about all of delta ray to the evil. you know, again, we're talking not about political reality is not about the cause of that facility or whatever. but about the existence show struggle between good and evil. and once you push yourself in that framework, you can go sheet with people. are you going to destroy it? and i think in 2 days, political discourse a very often we have this shooter really just nodes, which in my opinion and prevent a peaceful resolution of all kinds of conflicts of happily it mostly it occurs in the west. so i don't hear much of that in other countries, but professor, how can i think that it goes even further?

i'm in a, obviously it's very, it could be very instrumental for politicians to talk about. um, you know, as essential threats or, you know, major evil. but the problem that they create for themselves is that, um, you know, that's kind of electro is easy to mobilize. you can mobilize people who are religiously sort of a passionate but to govern them. it his very hard because they don't like to being govern that and i'm sure it, these really dealership at this point just like the american leadership. fine. it's very challenging to, you know, move beyond the elections. you need both of those people for the elections, but to change a life in your country in a meaningful way they, they make it very difficult, don't you think so that they, they themselves become an obstacle to a normal practical governance? well, it depends on what do you call?

no, i think that should i say in israel b, that's where we started our discussion. it's quite normal to refer to the idea of an ethnic state that the only way we can survive is being a jewish state. whatever that means, no one knows what she missed and that's why my point surviving and leaving your life with pleasure of 2 very different things. i mean, if you're always surviving, you know, the quality of life is not that the good. after all, i mean, and i'm sure many jews understand that right now regardless of the political persuasions because you will not be able to take your kids out in the park and not fear the, you know, some rocket through a land in the neighborhood. and in order to do that, you also have to, you know, do certain amendments when it comes to your political and religious believes, i mean, all things are connected ultimately. indeed. and i think that it's been there many more boards. you're a liberal cause of riley's feel uncomfortable in today's israel because it's,

it's become mis sciatic. it's become there right when the national is the racist. and that's why you had the lot of manage just a lot of demonstrations against the current government the from the beginning of this year. actually, it wasn't as early as spring and the future of demonstrations against danielle, connected with a traditional reform. but beyond the behind that is beyond the ease of the secular, it leads, descendants of those russian choose if you like, and full of shoes, who feel uncomfortable in this new environment where you cannot negotiate anything because it's, it's all becoming a religious issue. uh, any of them indeed want their children to go out on the park and play, and that's why many of them find themselves in, in berlin or montreal wall sooner or later, i guess an existential friend. that's become in her

a self fulfilling prophecy. even if you're only tried to use it as a, as a political to a professor up can we have to leave in there, but i, i'm very grateful for you sharing your insights with us today. thank you and thank you for watching. i hope to see her again on walter part of the the, [000:00:00;00] the, the name of the this of him. but he's,

you got one of the see at the end of me and say, guess i'm all for as little for risk law. i thought of it either i want says and some of them like that is some, what are the media you're going on? i'm glad you know you got one way just under then use it in video sort of the song of a k. i knew i love is that goes to you that i mean, i think going on because the i'm a persona of a be that me court that i, i didn't go to almost the end to see the best. so that sort of i, that out of in the see it, they have, and the single man throw some of the manual and all that. i don't want to lose the remainder. the age of the modem is off on, you know, the, i see them go legs it and say i couldn't of them. but the, let's see, let me look to see like tennessee, but i'm going to do it out of this and fit on. so being at that point, i see on there, most of the boss i need to,

i'm let me sadie. one of the subs have been in the meeting the union, so those new battery needs to be what somebody that get some given what you're my policy. ok, so you see the goals in the 2nd? i mean, either it is by you say things on a something different then generally a going i think the end of the 2nd for the the idea intensifies its deadly strikes on areas including schools of hospitals, post gals up of israel's foreign ministry hills. what he calls the high moral standards of this milligram is okay for israel, a bytes by the rules of war. this is how our army functions, the most,