with the great pleasure of talking to you double, thank you for making it into our studio. thank you for being here for the it's, it's good. see you again. i'm so sorry and offer our last encounter and sort you, well, we had a different topic for our station back down, but in some way, you know, everything is related. everything is connected down. here we are again discussing this time uh, rushes, contemporary history and the history of its disagreements with the west. then in one of your articles, um, or rather in many of your articles you've been expressing a preference for a negotiated add to the war in your brain. do you think the time is right at this point? yeah, i think now is may actually be the last time the last possibility in the coming weeks and months to get to you arrive at some kind of a, a piece of them. if it doesn't happen, then maybe there will be no at w, w, not piece of that, that'd be some kind of forever will all forever conflict on supreme. at some point the 5 team will stop,

but it will start with without an agreement. and i think that would be a terrible situation. most of all for you crime, because in this war is to ukraine. ukraine, people suffered suffolk, the most hundreds of thousands of them killed countries. been devastated? yeah, they're featuring system. the size and independence of insight is a, is a, is a psych i hope that it will be possible to find out why to some kind of see farm piece of work. but, but, but up obviously that's just a hope. i mean being realistic about it. the challenge is all the stuff that actually won't happen now, or despite the fact that they are at the most suffering side, the premiums are still proclaiming their desire to fight indefinitely. but i think there have been some indicators, including an increasing number of publications and the american policies are popular price that washington is sort of tending the ground for some kind. as you said, some kind of a cease fire. that's what suspend the violence. but without addressing the major

disagreements of the core of days constantly the disagreements over security between the russian, the west. do you think that's, will me that'll do it 3, and do you think that would be enough simply to add facilities without settling those issues? i, i think it's also important to start it. it's not just you cried the south of russia as all to also suffer arms for many, tens of thousands of russian soldiers have been killed. you guys have that devastating effect on the prior russian population of eastern and 70 percent on russia. russia as incentives. uh, you know, okay, russia is when you the war but it has a number of incentives to actually bring the war to close as soon as possible. yeah . okay. because that's your question. yes. there is a more realistic come discussion developing in the west on the back of the fi either of this. so cold, ukrainian, contra funds. that offensive is become increasingly clear that the russian is winning the water. the already comfortable is going to be some kind of russian victory might not be

a fun type of appeal victory binding minutes for the rest restaurant will rent ukraine will lose. the longer the will goes on. the more you crime is going to suffer a bit, doesn't it? there's not a prospect of ukraine efficiency. so it's just a robertson, i don't do this correctly. it's not, it's up to the ukrainian leadership to take care all 5, the ukraine and people ukranian soldiers and those off to russian. russell went into this military operation as tragic and terrible as it may be. a speaking of somebody who has ukrainian growth in a rush of one to enter that operation, having security to put all the tests. and one of them you written about them extensively is making sure that ukraine is not turned into a military pop star. and for attacking russia, do you think russia would agree to a cease fire without this primary issue being address? no, absolutely no, no rush. i will agree to assist uh, ceaselessly to the outlines of a piece out to my mind that fundamentally that, that piece. and that would include acceptance, that they didn't just quiet lawsuits. you kind of remind part of russia that the

security for it and no type of security for it towards russia is lift it. and there are protections for appropriate pro russians in front of us that will remain we've in the k of control territory. yes. but i think russia would accept some kind of a piece of money on or on, on those terms. so yeah, we've got that for me. that's the biggest hope actually for piecing your credit is the very definitely on one side, on the russian side, there is a willingness to ensure actually to go to a direct compromise. the united states has bank calling this conflicts, although the ability to do that, you know, actively is now being questioned by a new one. but still do thing. the americans can be trusted, even if they trusted for a long time. if they consent to some sort of settlement on ukraine, what, what a, any, any c. so any piece of money is going to both rich,

but both sides and trust is a problem on both sides. and you definitely the only way to find out whether or not it's possible to trust that the west and relates to some sort of piece. that's my piece though is to actually to and the same applies from, from the western western perspective. but we haven't quite got to that point. yeah, yeah, i think russia would be willing to negotiate a compromise space on the west as a low talk about the need to change western strategy. and i may be taught as low as these, but that there's no real, as far as i can say, at least politically. there's no a at the moment, there's no inclination in the ways to actually engage in serious piece talks with russia. and certainly certainly isn't any information on the part of ukrainians. yeah, i mean, you said earlier, it's up to the ukrainians to, to look off to the people. but the reality is that without west and support for your crime, this will, will come to an end very, very, very, very quickly into. so it's not just ukrainian decision. it's, it's, it's, it's a west, it's a wisdom decision as well. so it has to be any piece,

the local impulse, obviously involved westbridge ski united states as well as you right now. uh, speaking about the western involvement, not the only as far as military support is concerned, but also sort of the guidance and the prodding of a ukrainian uh action uh, written uh in one of your articles that uh the much touted summer counter offensive was done and the, the house of, uh, western military command and that, you know, essentially what are the chief a couple of villages of the cost of tens of thousands of lives for, for, for the ukranian army. and i wonder, i mean the for, you know, for all the people who are concerned about the loss of life and you're praying is a life laws due to the poor ukrainian command, somehow less valuable than a life loss to, let's say russian i ariel stripe us at no cost of cost a lot,

but best for you as far as or questions about you know, the failure of to your credit accounts offensive, you know, it was a failure. there was a series of, of illusions on the, on the west side, in ukrainian side, illusions about their own strength illusions about straight for the russian opponents. all kinds of notions. the russian russian brow was fight, pull that russian to pull him in a tree leadership. the food chain was on the pressure domestically, you know, the, basically the, you know, the to go to rush or, and your crime was a, you're a door to just talk, be kicked in and the whole structure would come, come sometime in the and those solutions have been shot to by the actual close, the site is complete site of your credit accounts and some accounts are offensive as a result that there are some very economic reappraised what's going on in certain quotas in the west, west and policy community. but as of now, there's been the political shift, you know, they're, they're all these experts that having various discussions making various proposals, but basically by political, these on the notes list some place to later,

which indicate they wants to trace that policy on your products. i mean, uh they haven't, it indicated that in the rhetoric, but in some ways, reality has indicated that for them because we have another major war broken out in the middle east is realize it requires a norm, a support them in strategic terms. it's a, it's much more important for their west down now, or at least for the united states, them, ukraine. how do you think it will change the, the course of events, perhaps not even publicly. i mean, in terms of enter dynamics, why that what it is it's, it's obviously a distraction from new york, right? well, it's obviously the requested the version of the, of material results. these as well. i think you arriving in the end. certainly as far as the united states is because of maybe not sure what happens in and, and there's ro, palestine in the middle east. this is much more important than what happens in, in your, in your quite helps in the pregnancy. understand this, but i, i sense this and that they're supposed to send the west through. this pulls in the west a constantly all going to be stretched to bike garza, you know,

we were in for the long haul. we were in for a long while. we would need to double down on that commitment to do your crime. but it was kind of like how of, on appeals or having less with less residents. i certainly know getting and any public support and public opinion in europe, i mean united states and also thinking russia is moving. i think your price definitely a decisive like inside of ending the war since because people want to hang out with that bunch of be allocated into improving their own lives era rather than sense uh, somewhere with questionable results for indefinitely. and they also want to see this little, so in your crime slots. they also went, want to say that the central for escalation, perhaps it's a new field that don't want to that, that to be and they, they want no attention to re focus on, you know, whole series of common, kind of like a, it was pretty cool. common global issues that we face to do with the environment to do with medical issues. and so i shall tell that there was its problems of

migration. economic do have all these kind of issues which have been side line because of that the focus on the move toward the one year correct. so the sooner the will come, so then the better off it will be from many, many, many different parts of it. so let's talk about the sort of cor reasons for this one, because american officials make it no secret that from the point of view, the underlying reason for this conflict in ukraine is from their side. the need to preserve the so called who's based order, which in russian terms is the us centric economic and political system, which sometimes is also described as the american hegemony. and i want to ask you as somebody who lives in the west, do you think that the system in its current form of historical form but in its current form, but its current priorities with its current methods? do you think it serves the interest on the underlying preferences of, of western societies? yeah. yeah, yeah. obviously the west is part of your proxy. will it be frustrating?

you're crying and it's not just on behalf of you're crying into somebody off of their own agenda, around stretch to see how so will, to we can russia to a bit and rush rows of great, great, great power, preferably they'd like to, you know, see regime change in rush it, but yeah, i mean, that's a good place. so it's also, it's also well to, to maintain what they see is the gemini, you know, this so cold rules rules by store. but let's, let's imagine they get what they want to, you know, ukraine means rushes defeated put in is driven out of power. and there is a like a profit like regime in the kremlin one that sol western problems wants to put to put pencil. what problem is you're talking about below? i think it's simple to understand the nature of the west and project of liberal global head jamming is actually much more radical than people think. it's not just about how an interest is about completely ending the system of the state sovereignty so that by trying to change it, they only make it better. sure it,

it was never a perfect system, but it looks now much worse than the one then decided to make the world a better place. what exactly, exactly. that's exactly the part of course. um, yeah, the thing about russia and china and other countries that they can take to defend a system based on sites like sovereignty and based on the principal and interest in the internal affairs of states, the west. but it is project to globalize the system, their values, their rules based based old, effectively this agent 6 seeking to destroy that traditional site system. so that's a very, very radical approach, right? yeah, i mean why that's, that's what one of the things that is possibly a spike in relation to the unit. courtney was done successfully because he was suggesting that we have what if they were not going to win. what ways be so thinking their lives and how badly i got to lose? how, how old are you know, how that, how, how, how long are they going to prosecute and how cynical they may be in the, in there is one to 5. yeah. and the so yeah, yeah,

well professor over it's we have to stop for a 2nd because we have still have to abide by the rules of advertising. but we'll be back in just a few moments state you and the, [000:00:00;00] the the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the the,

[000:00:00;00] the welcome back to worlds of course, with geoffrey roberts ameritas, professor of history at university college court. professor members, before they break a, you mentioned that the nature of the western project is far more radical than uh, if lets it be known. uh and i, i think like it puts in uh, sees it in even darker terms because i think it was last week when he was know, last year when he was addressing develop the discussion club, he accused western leads of not only security encroachments. i'm trying to remain the world in the image, but he also said the or the west and at least the trying to do is to try to change how people relate to culture, to history, free soft free speech, their own bodies, social and familial ties. and i think it was a sort of a philosophical minute faster against this the progressive as the agenda,

which according to humans, the lease is out of touch, not just with core human values, but with for human nature. i wonder if in this sense, the warranty ukraine is indeed an opening solve or in the very real class of not just civilizations. i mean, this is, is the ultimate battle for what it means to be and not just the state, but the human being. yeah i, i replied to describe the level of project as a totalitarian project, actually uh that, that family set, that doesn't mean to say that i, you know, disapprove of disagree with many of the liberal values that it involved is, you know, i'm a liberal myself, so i agree with a lot of aspects of the western civilization western tradition in fact is all kinds of people that it just simply i don't, i don't think that we can post those 5 years. what's the child to tell his parents about it because of the, your am no exception valley and status besides as what pooty was called,

you putting to be there while he was describing was i totally, i totally, that's very project project to rewrite the whole world in your image as to whether or not, you know, the, or do you crate these, the touchstone of the successful finding of that project. i'm not so sure. it depends. depends on how long the wall goes on and on and you know how it ends and when it was, you know, it was to in tomorrow for example. yeah. the world will be pretty much the like it was before it was started. okay. that, that would have been charging the local impacts on your crime. you're trying to, to impact dynamic for all causing it would still be a recognizable, recognizable well, it was all. and if you know, the, the, you know, the west of project gets, you know, radicalize itself even further in the face of the feet in the new car. and then, yeah, we could be looking at a very different well into it. but it's thinking about the nature of the world, even though it would be a conflict between the russian, the west,

the side. it's pretty clear that the nature of international system is changing and apart from russia, let's say china, we try the most common targets of to just as more hatreds in the west. the many regional states that are rising that are exerting their influence power in the immediate neighborhood. and by doing that, are they already in directly challenging what's making, jumping in? they do that not out of political, into political reasons, but simply naturally this is how you manage and develops. i mean, this is impossible to change that then there was no longer has enough resources to support that old populations. let alone make other countries play to to, um, this is something that i don't realize because in any confrontation you have to do a cost benefit analysis. sure. and you know, that ideal is, is that, you know, set up for distorting your vision. but the, you're obligated to do the basic math. are these people blind to what is happening around them?

because it's not just about the restaurant china or ukraine. it's about the whole world. ultimately trying to stand up on its own feet, trying to provide for itself, trying to develop according to its own needs. how can you solve that? yeah, i, i don't see the world has changed as much as people think you have so many things as a result. are you crying? well, are you quite, was there catalyzed certain things but that but there were pre existing trends so, so as a result, your credit for that, but it's a continuation of process revival. as of right power, china is becoming even might more, more, more basic level of positive result, the will. and above all, you know, we, we have to rise at the so called a global stop, which, what you will refer to, but, you know, to rise or to level 5 in the kinds of countries from that part of other searching their independence. trying to call that a new role for instruction today. oh, sure, sure. yeah, nothing that's been going on since 1950 is as yeah, i don't see, you know, the war and you're crying as a, you know, as a, a fundamentally, you know, transform a cheaper event as far as the nature of, well,

well the policy is concerned, but you know, my concern is that the, you know, it could, you know, the totally to, you know, a factory, you know, a split of to well political system into, into, into permanently conflict take, if not, if, if not more in books, you know, united nations step to break up, any of the complete, you know, separate sets of institutions developed appear to some extent that this has already happened. then, thanks to western own sound defeating moves, i mean, introducing economic pressure on to russia, sanctions, and pressuring out of countries. this is already, this already has led to the creation of alternative schemes of doing business. and surely the if this trend continues those skills skills transfer. absolutely, if, if, if that, if that trend continues and that's a trend, the mot begin to think of, you know, other parts of the world will to what will the political system. yeah, but i don't think we've got to the stage where, you know, how the system of world politics to that does mean evolving in, in,

in the west then globally for the last several years, was that you broke kind of wanted to just integrate. there was some, you know, a indicates as a, in, in that direction. but of course, interesting. yeah. yeah. russia in china, which are, you know, often per site in the west as being what revision is power is trying to grab well, the rest of us trying to develop yeah, it's, it's of 2 powers, right? they try to be. so what is that the solution is very strong when he's off to the future, you know, nice disease, very clip is that we, you know, we, we, we don't want to get rid of those. we want strength for that. we want 3. finally, we want to make it make, make it more more, more effective in the chinese, the site side of the site and fix it. so in that and that way, um, you know, that you know that there's a, there's a contest going on between, you know, what a friend of mine, richard i photos a saw for an international some versus a liberal, a global head, jim, a liberal, liberal in that flash is a professor, but i don't understand why do we have to term it as a, as a contest?

if you develop your and leave your own destiny and i do the same in the, in my life. why is it a contest? i mean, i agree with you, but it is a concept why, why? what? well, because you know that those who say the, you know, global level, which emanates up, assuming that the food that goes on, it's called because the software that goes by, sucking up the resources from the rest of the world. that's the only the episode that goes in all kinds of different ways and they switch and is leading to complete, including, including well, that's just the reality. i agree with you, but there's no reason that that should, should, it should, should be in the caught the case. you know, we, we, there's no reason why we can't have a multi pallet, you know, flor pluralistic well, of southern states and different civilizations sufficient countries get higher maybe. but also, you know, um come up pricing countries into the front of the countries. yeah. why not that we might, but that we might not, that would think about my future calibrating when it's beneficial to them. and

again, we've seen that over the last year and a half when many countries refused to concise with russia simply because, you know, it goes against that own very cynical and but material. but also, you know, national interest, which is probably a good say to buy. so i think you have to be careful, but you know, sign up, we need self sufficiency when and you'll fit your, your focus on, you know, and national interest that will have like a civilization. but as a time during that attitude, not with the dangers that you're right, reinforcing the radicalism of the west of the project. just, you're actually your hope, your pop become the pallet or from the windows, like all of a diverse, i'm arguing that you have to leave within your own means either. is there a human being or is it as a country in the united states? for many, many dickens has been living off the world. and so just by doing that, it is now more in depth is more politically polarized, more govern mentally inputs than ever before. so the more resources of gifts from

the rest of the world, the weaker it gets on the inside. and i want to ask you, what do you think may possibly prompt the american public, the american society, the american at least to look in words tend to that old garden instead of trying to mess with everybody else who is actually doing the hard work of trying to develop the site isn't provide for the people this and dignified slides. i think in one sense that's a simpler, simple also to that question. what, what will concentrate that mind changed? it'd be a microscope which i isn't a trump presidency. trump, that's what my to, i mean fact, you know, going back to our discussion about your credit and then i had a change in wisdom perspectives on the part of the some of some people, some nights with what the really worried about that worried about richard. the return of trump, the word to flight is going to lose the election. i think the how combined to win the election, which lived in the united states fighting a losing proxy war with russia. india cried. that's that, that's what that new trump ministration couldn't really shake things up. now you might find so that, that, that would be a good thing and perhaps it would be to fates, but it, but it would also, you know,

a bring a lot of that. i just a lot because it goes, you know, trump told to pick on lots of things, but it doesn't deliver suffert's office. she told big about cooperation with russia, dates on with russian. polish it with pollution. and so, but it was a trump administration that actually started this problem. we did a new crime, but the same reason the process of building up the credit is a night to walk, live on rush as well. just let me ask you about this. i, i know that, uh, you have a somewhat controversial position about what would solve this conflict, and this is potentially ukraine's membership in nature, or rather indeed a membership for what is left of your brain. why do you seeing that could be a workable solution? because this is something that i, i'm not sure of the crumbling what, what, what and any to go show to pay. so, but if there's going to be a negotiated piece of my, make me to what pay will involve some kind of, um, west a guarantee of your crimes. future security and dependence. yep. so something i might use actually, the best, the site, just a guarantee from a rush, unplug it,

would be some for nato a membership fee of cried for some kind of association with your credit. okay, a okay. that that would be oh, positive. so essentially i did, the west takes full responsibility for the rec, construction rebuilding of your branch for providing it with the, the reasonable uh, secure the shuttle. and it was also tight to take full responsibility to the crime . will stick to it side of the, of the piano west process as well. okay. i can actually do a more what the problem is, is that even if it problem, is there any way to find out dime and press the best way to find a better place is no rush at present to didn't go to go to war just for the sake of symbols, the symbol of a few crime becoming a member of night night. so that wasn't the fate. the thing was an actual military for us to russia in the form of and they told me the truth, build up on rushes versus boulders. once that problem is resolved, because they're not comfortable. and he says that based on the i've seen

a reason why russia won't acquiesce in, in your probably become a live like to. and i think, you know, russia a soldier to have a leader present version. well, i think has the space, you know, it's kind of states one who can actually cross, but that kind of quite radical solution. and also of course, you have to power police brought polarity to deliver such a, such. so such a pre, some well, it's uh, at 1st glance it sounds very provocative for russian ear, but it to a russian the are. but i think the last year and a half has demonstrated that neither is a paper tiger because no, no, regardless of what they say about their military capacity and our ability to muster industrial production to per day to provide arguments for your credit has been uh, very limited, so perhaps its uh and not as scary as, uh, russia and visit should to be a year and a half. well, here i think it's probably got to fall to describe night to us. are you a pipe type type of target? but certainly of course, you know, russia and just purely military times as modem,

modem, what is the past? the last name? virtually every kind of has a battlefield experience that there was no longer. absolutely, absolutely. yeah. you know what i mean to in the west, i'd like to talk about, well, you know, it's been a costly well for sure. it's week and russian is certainly has been a cause to well, for us, it's actually groceries emerging from this company. i wouldn't much of this contract much, much stronger than it was before the war. let's leave it here. it's been amazing

talking to your guys. thank you very much for coming over. thank you for your protection and thank you for watching hope to see her again on walter part of the in 1941 with the nazis health relation, ultram nationalists. the you astonishes the claim, the independent state of croatia. shortly off, the seizing power. they built the scene of us concentration camp a place associated with the worst atrocities committed in yugoslavia during will go to use dash is used to come system to isolate and exterminate subs, roma, jews, and other non catholic minorities and political opponents of the fascist regime

conditions in the san of us come with her renders the gods to which it to arise and the prisoners they send them the constitution temps. so most of them died. it was incredible genocide. the celebration is on the streets of the west bank because the jail palestinians are released by israel and re unite with loved one. the 2nd round of exchanges as wrapped up over night. the prisoners shared the belief that no prisoner will be left behind boss. and we have faith, the palestine will also be liberated due to the efforts of the resist. grace beats of god. come us sets free 17 hostages,