the, the hello and welcome to wells apart. the conflict in ukraine has already made military history. as the centuries most intense kinetic encounter between 2 large, regular armies. turning upside down previously held to isn't about the nature of war. and the nature of peace. is it still cheaper or more profitable to keep in going rather than trying to settle? the disagreement is that spark that in the 1st place we'll discuss it. i'm now enjoying by and geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history a university college court. professor roberts, it's always a great pleasure talking to you double. thank you for making it into our studio. thank you for being here for that. so that's good. see you again. i'm so sorry and offer our last encounter. and so, well, we had a different topic for our station back down, but in some way, you know, everything is related, everything is connected. and here we are again discussing these time uh, rushes,

contemporary history and vicious serve its disagreements with the west. then in one of your articles, or rather in many of your articles, you've been expressing a preference for a negotiated add to the warranty ukraine. do you think the time is right at this point? yeah, i think now is may actually be the last time the last possibility in the coming weeks and months to get to your brother some kind of a, a piece of them. if it doesn't happen, then maybe there will be no at w, w, not piece of it, that'd be some kind of forever will all forever conflict on supreme. at some point the flight team will stop, but it will start with uh, with that and agreement. and i think that would be um, a terrible situation. most of all for your crime, because in this war is to ukraine. ukraine. painful of software stuff at the most. hundreds of thousands of them killed country has been devastated. yeah. their future existence size and independence of insight is it is at stake. i hope that it

will be possible to find that way to some kind of see far piece of group but, but, but up obviously that's just a hope. i mean, being realistic about it. the challenge is all done that, that actually won't happen now, or despite the fact that they are at the most suffering side, the premiums are still proclaiming their desire to fight indefinitely. but i think there have been some indicators, including an increasing number of publications in american policies are popular price that washington is sort of changing the ground for some kind. as you said, some kind of a cease fire. that's what suspend the violence. but without addressing the major disagreements of the core of these calls, like the disagreements over security between the russian, the west. do you think that's will make that they'll do it 3, and do you think that would be enough simply to add facilities without settling those issues? i, i think it's also important to start it. it's not just you cried the south of russia as all to also serve as well. many tens of thousands of russian soldiers

have been killed. it always has that devastating effect on the pro russian population of eastern and 70 percent on russia. russia as incentives. uh, you know, okay. rushers when you the war but it has a number of the sensors to actually bring the water close as soon as possible. yeah, okay, but going back to your question. yeah, there is a more realistic um, discussion developing in the west on the back of the of the fi either of this. so cold ukrainian contra funds offensive is become increasingly clear that the russian is winning the water. the over the comfortable is going to be some kind of russian victory may not be a fun type of appeal. victory by any means, but, but russ rusher will rent ukraine will lose. the longer the will goes on. the more you crime is going to suffer a bit, doesn't it? there's not a prospect of your credit history. so investor roberts, for those are just, and it's not, it's up to the ukrainian leadership to take care all 5, the ukraine, and people ukranian,

a soldier's nose off to russian. russell went into this military operation as tragic and terrible as it may be. a speaking of somebody who has ukrainian rose in a rush of one to enter that operation, having security to put all the tests. and one of them you written about them extensively is making sure that ukraine is not turned into a military pop storm for attacking russia. do you think russell would agree to a cease fire without this primary issue being address? no, absolutely not. no rush or we'll agree to assist uh, ceaselessly to the outlines of a piece out to my mind that fundamentally that, that piece. and that would include acceptance. that the, the, the new, you're in a quiet a glossing, you kind of remind, paused russia, that the security for it and no type of security for it towards russia is lifted. now, protections the appropriate pro russian. you probably use the will remain we've in the case of control territory. yes. but i think russia would accept some kind of a piece of money on or on, on those terms. so yeah. that, that for me,

that's the biggest hope actually for piecing your credit. is that very definitely on one side, on the russian side, there is a willingness to ensure actually to go to a direct compromise. the united states has bank calling based conflicts, although the ability to do that, you know, actively is now being questioned by a new one. but still do think the americans can be trusted, even if they trusted for a long time. if they consent to some sort of settlement on ukraine, what, what a, any, any c. so any piece of the month, he's gone to both rich, but both sides and trust is a problem on both sides and younger. definitely the only way to find out whether or not it's possible to trust that the west and in relation to some sort of piece supplement piece though is to actually to and the same applies from, from the western western perspective. but we haven't quite got to that point. yeah, yeah, i think russia would be willing to because so it's

a compromise based on the west as a lot of talk about the need to change western strategy and i maybe cut his losses but that there's no real as far as i can say, at least politically, there's no a at the moment, there's no information in the ways to actually engage in serious piece talks with russia and certainly certainly isn't any inclination on the part of ukrainians. yeah, i mean, you said earlier, it's up to you crying is to, to look off to the people. but the reality is that without west and support for your crying, this will, will come to a name very, very, very, very quickly into. so it's not just a ukrainian decision, it's, it's, it's, it's a west to, it's a wisdom decision as well. so it has to be a, any piece. the lock will involve, obviously involved westbridge ski united states as well as you right now. uh, speaking about the western involvement is not the only as far as military support is concerned, but also sort of the guidance and the prodding of a ukrainian action. you've written in one of your articles that

the much touted summer counter offensive was done and the, the house of, uh, western military command. and that, you know, essentially what are the chief, the couple of villages and the cost of tens of thousands of lives for, for, for the ukranian army. and i wonder, i mean the for, you know, for all the people who are concerned about the loss of life and you're praying, is the life loss due to the poor ukrainian command. somehow less valuable than a life loss to let's say, russian i ariel, strike us at no cost of cost, but best, you know, as far as, or questions about the, you know, the failure of the a credit accounts offensive. you know, it was a fire, there was a series of, of illusions on the, on the west side in ukrainian side illusions about their own strength illusions about straight for the russian opponents. all kinds of notions that, you know, russian, russian, where i was like, pull that rush, i pull him in

a tree leadership that puts in was on the pressure domestically, you know, the, basically, the, you know, that, that to go to russia and ukraine was a, you know a door that just talk be kicked in and the whole structure would come come sometime into those solutions have been shuffled by the actual cost. the site is complete side of your credit accounts and some accounts are offensive. how does result that? there are some very economic thing, reappraised what's going on in certain quotas in the west, west and policy community. but as of now, there's been a political shift, you know, they're, they're all these experts that having various discussions, making various proposals, but basically by political, the, so i know, know what's the political leader, is it the guy that wants to charge that publish on your parents i mean, they have indicated that in rhetoric, but in some way, reality has indicated that for them because we have another major war broken out in the middle east, israel. and if the requires to norma, support them in strategic terms, it's a, it's much more important for their west down now,

or at least for the united states, then the ukraine, how they think it will change the, the course of events, perhaps not even publicly. i mean, in terms of enter dynamics, why that what it is it's, it's obviously, you know, destruction from new york. right. well, it's obviously the requested the version of the, of material results. these as well. i think you're right. i think in the end, certainly as far as the united states is because of maybe not sure what happens in and, and there's ro, palestine in the middle east. this is much more important than what happens in, in you and your client and obviously need craig is understand this, that i, i sense this and then this upholstered in the west through this falls in the west. the constantly aren't going to be structured by gulf. so, you know, we were in for the long haul, we were in for a long with, we need to double that. and on that commitment to or to your crime. but those kind of like how of, on appeals or having less with less residence or something. you know, getting and any public support, public opinion in your, i mean united sites and also thinking rosa is moving. i think it was the 1st step

away and decisively inside of ending the war since because people one, the, hey, know that budget to be allocated into improving their own lives rather than sense uh, somewhere with questionable results for indefinitely. and they also wants to see the slow, so in your crime soft, they'll so what, what to say the, the central for escalation. perhaps it's a new to that, don't want to that, that to be and do they want, you know, attention to re focus on, you know, how serious of coming coming like a it was pretty cool. come and global issues that we face to do with the environment to do with medical issues. and so i shall tell that there was a problems of migration economic develop. oh, these kind of issues which have been sidelined because of the thought that the focus on the move toward the one year correct. so the soon as it will come, so then the better off it will be for many, many, many different parts of it. so let's talk about the set of core reasons for this war, because american officials make it no secret that from the point of view,

the underlying reason for this conflict in ukraine is from our side. the need to preserve the so called rules based order, which in russian terms is the us centric economic and political system, which sometimes is also described as the american hegemony. and i want to ask you as somebody who lives in the west, do you think that the system in its current form of historical form but in its current form, but its current priorities minutes, current methods? do you think it serves the interest on the underlying preferences of, of western societies? yeah. if yeah, yeah, obviously the west is part of your proxy. will it be frustrating? you're crying and it's not just on behalf of you're crying into somebody off of their own agenda, their own stretch to so you know, it's a will to, we can russia to a bit and rush rows of great, great, great power, preferably they'd like to, you know, see regime change in rush it but yeah, it's been a good place. so it's all, it's also wanted to main saying was,

i see is the gym and the, you know, the so called rules rules by stores like, let's, let's imagine they get what they want to, you know, ukraine means rushes defeated put in is driven out of power and there is a like a profit like regime in the kremlin one that sol western problems wants to put to put pencil. what problem is you're talking about below? i think it's simple to understand the nature of the west and project of liberal global head jamming is actually much more radical than people think. it's not just about how an interest is about completely ended the system of the state. 77. i tried to change it, they only make it better. sure. it was never a perfect system, but it's now much worse than the one that decided to make the world a better place. what exactly, exactly. that's exactly the part of course. um, yeah, the thing about russia and china and other countries that they can take to defend a system based on site state sovereignty of based on the principles on interest in the internal affairs of states,

the west. but it is project to globalize the system, their values, their rules by space told effectively this ation 6 say can to destroy that traditional state system. so that's a very, very radical project. yeah, i mean why that's, that's what one of the things that is possibly a psych in relation to the unit. courtney was that don't fix the state because you're suggesting that you know what if they were not going to win. what ways be so thinking their lives and how badly all the gods lose? how, how old are you know, how the house, how, how long are they going to prosecute and how cynical they may be? yeah, exactly. and that is columbus to find you and the site. yeah. yeah. and the quote professor roberts, we have to stop for a 2nd because we have still have to abide by the rules of advertising. that will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the,

the, the watching wires and why in this country. what if i give borrowed money in the store in this? she said, my shorter one. for now i'm not going to stay less. so could i scan. when i knew what the subject georgia style session let's just show new york, just a new fund. you bought a new born, you sit on what's the, the, the media the the welcome back to was of course vincent geoffrey roberts ameritas,

professor of history of university college court professor numbers before they break a you mentioned that the nature of the western project is far more radical than uh, if lets it be known. uh and i, i think a lot of it puts in uh, sees it in even darker terms because i think it was last week when he was know, last year when he was addressing developed the discussion club, he accused western leads of not only security encroachments on trying to remain in the world in the image, but he also said the or the west some at least the trying to do is to try to change how people relate to culture, to history, free thoughts, free speech, their own bodies, social and familial ties. and i think it was a sort of a philosophical minute faster against this uh, progressive as the agenda, which according to humans least is out of touch, not just with core human values, but it's better for human nature. i wonder if in this sense, the warranty,

a crane is indeed an opening, solve or in the very real class of not just civilizations. i mean, this is the ultimate battle for what it means to be and not just the state, but the human being. yeah i, i replied to describe the level of project as a totalitarian project to actually look at. but having said that, i get somebody to say that i, you know, disapprove of disagree with many of the liberal values that it involved is, you know, i'm a liberal myself. so i agree with a lot of aspects of western civilization. western tradition, in fact is all kinds of people that it just simply i don't, i don't think that we can post those 5 years. what's the shadow to tell his hair and about, and because the and your and the exact valley and status besides as what pooty was called, you putting to be there while he was describing was i told you i'd try that area project to project to, you know, re might the whole world in your image as to whether or not um yep,

the or do you crate. use the touchstone of the successful find of that project? i'm not so sure. it depends. it depends on how long the wall goes on and on, and you know how it ends when it was, you know, it was to in tomorrow. for example. yeah. the world will be pretty much like it was before the war started. okay. that would have been charges the local impacts on your credit, your changes impact dynamics for all costs. and they would still be a recognizable, recognizable well, it was all. and if you know the, the, you know, the western project guess, you know, radicalize itself even further in the face of the feet in and you cry. and then yeah, we could be looking at a very different well into but uh, thinking about the nature of the world, even life would be a conflict between the rush and the west. the side, it's pretty clear that the nature of international system is changing and apart from rational let's say china, we try the most common targets of purchase as more hatreds in the west. the many

regional states that are rising that are exerting their influence power in the immediate neighborhood. and by doing that, they are already in directly challenging uh, western head german. and they do that not out of political origin, political reasons, but simply naturally this is how humanity develops. i mean, this is impossible to change that then the west no longer has enough resources to support that old populations, let alone make other countries play trents tune. this is something that i don't realize because in any confrontation you have to do a cost benefit analysis. sure. and you know, that i do always use that, you know, set up for distorting your vision, but the, you're obligated to do the basic math for all these people blind to what is happening around them. because it's not just about the restaurant china or ukraine . it's about the whole world ultimately trying to stand up on its own feet, trying to provide for itself, trying to develop according to its own needs. how can you solve that?

yeah, i, i don't see the world has changed as much as people think you have. so many things as a result, are you crying? well, are you quite, was there catalyzed certain things, but they both have a preexisting try and so, so as a result, you're crying more. it's a continuation of process revival. it's a great power. china that's becoming even might more, more, more magic level of positive result the will. and the buffalo, you know, we, we have to realize that the so called a global shock, which, what you will refer to, but, you know, the riser to level 5 in the country. countries from that part of other searching their independence. tried to call that a new role constituent to that. oh, sure. sure. that had nothing that's been going on since 19 fifties as. yeah, i don't see, you know, the war and you're crying as a, you know, as a, a fundamentally transformative event as far as the nature of, well, well, policy is concerned. but, you know, my concern is that the, you know, it could, you know, the totally to, you know, a fracture such an a split of the will political system into, into,

into permanently conflict take, if not, if, if not more in books, you know, united nations have put breakup, you know, they could be, you know, separate sets of institutions, develop propecia to function that this has already happened. thanks to western own self defeating moves. i mean, introducing economic pressure on to a russia, sanctions and pressuring other countries. this is already, this already has led to the creation of alternative scenes of doing business. and surely the, if this trend continues those schemes real strengths. and absolutely, if, if, if that, if that trend continues, and that's a trend that might begin to and go, you know, other parts of the world will to what will a political system. yeah. but i don't think we've got to the stage where, you know, how the system of world politics to that does mean involve, again, in, in the west then globally, for the last several of geas is actually pro, kind of wanted to just integrate, give some, you know, indicates is in,

in that direction. but of course, interesting, you know, russia in china which, you know, often prefer you to the west as being what revision is power is trying to grab up the rest of us trying to develop yeah, it's of 2 powers, right. they tried to be so what was that not just pushing is very strong when he's off to the future. you know, nice disease, very clip is that we, you know, we, we, we don't want to get registered, you know, just we want strength on it. we want to reform it, we want to make it might make it more more, more effective into johnny's the site, the site, the site and fix it. so in that and that way, i know that you know, that there's a, there's a contest going on between, you know, so yeah, well, a friend of mine which as i thought goes a saw for an international some the sees a liberal global head jim, a liberal liberal in that fashion as a professor, but i don't understand why do we have determined as a, as a contest if you develop your and leave your own destiny and i do the same in the, in my life. why is it a contest? i mean, i agree with you, but it is a contest. why?

why a lot less. because you have those in favor of global lupo germany up assuming that assuming that goes on, it's called the folks and their goals, by sucking up the resources from the rest of the world. that's the only the episode that goes in all kinds of different ways. and just with industry leading to complete, including, including well, that's just a reality. i agree with you, but there's no reason that that should, should, it should, should be the cause of the case. you know, you know, we, we, there's no reason why we call and have a multi pablo. you know, flor pluralistic well, of southern states and different civilizations official countries get higher maybe . but also, you know, um collab pricing countries into the front of the country. yeah. why not savvy might, but that would be my mind, that would think, well, my future calibrating when it's beneficial to them. and again, we're, we've seen that over the last year and a half when many countries refused to cut ties with us just simply because, you know, it goes against that own very cynical and, but the material, but also,

you know, national interest, which is probably a good thing to buy, so i think you have to be careful but you know sign or we need self sufficiency when you will fit your, your focus on, you know, and national interest that web like a civilization. but as a time during that attitude, not with the dangers that you read, reinforcing the radicalism of the west and project just, you're actually your part to become the pallet of palm be waiting all of a diverse. i'm arguing that you have to leave within your own means either is a human being or is that as a country in the united states for many, many dickens has been living off the world. and so just by doing that, it is now more in depth is more politically polarized, more governmental li, impotent than ever before. so the more resources have gets from the rest of the world, the weaker it gets on the inside. and i want to ask you, what do you think may possibly prompt the american public, the american society, the american at least to look in words tend to that old garden instead of trying to

mess with everybody else who is actually doing the hard work of trying to develop the site isn't provide for the people this and dignified lives. i think in one sense that's a simple, simple also to that question. what, what will concentrate their minds change they've, you might perceive which i as a new trump presidency, trump, that's what my to and in fact, you know, go back to our discussion about you probably. and then um, a change in wisdom perspective only probably some on some people. so i made so that's what we're really worried about. they're worried about richard. the result of trump that we're to 5 is going to lose the election. i think the outcome by to win the election. we lived in the united states fighting a losing proxy war with russia. india cried. that's that, that's what that new trump ministration couldn't really shake things up. now you might find so that that would be a good thing and perhaps it would be a good faith, but it, but it would also, you know, uh yeah, i bring a lot of the day just a lot because it goes, you know, trump told to pick on lots of things,

but if he doesn't deliver suffert's office, he told big about cooperation with russia, dates on the russian partnership with prediction. and so, but it was a trump administration. the actually started this problem in your crime. but the same as the process of building up your credit is a night to walk, live on rest as well. just let me ask you about this. i, i know that you have a somewhat controversial position about what would solve this conflict. and this is potentially ukraine's membership in nature or rather dom membership for what is left of your brain. why do you seeing that could be a workable solution? because this is something that i, i'm not sure of the crumbling what, what, what and any to go straight to piece. so, but if there's going to be a negotiated peace of mind, maybe that what piece will involve some kind of, um, west a guarantee of your crimes, future security independence. yeah. so, so my view is actually the best, the safest guarantee from a rush report would be some falls and they to a membership fee of cried for some kind of association with your christ. okay. i,

i okay, that, that will be a positive. so essentially i did see the west takes full responsibility for the rec instruction rebuilding of your brain for providing it with the, the reasonable uh, security the shuttle and also type to take full responsibility to ukraine will stick to it side of the, of the piano west process as well. okay, okay. i can actually do a more where the problem is. this is not even a fit for on this. is there any way to find out the price of best buy to find a minute places? no rush it because it didn't go to go to war just for the sake of symbols, the symbol of your crime becoming a member of night night. so that wasn't the fate. the thing was an actual military for us to rush out in the form of a nature military build up on rushes versus boulders. once that problem is resolved, because it had come with a warranty, it says that based on the, i've seen the reason why russia once it's actually s isn't in, you probably become a live talk to. and i think, you know, russia is fault you that's i have

a leader presentation. what i think has the space. it's kind of space one who can actually cross. but that kind of quite radical solution. and also of course, you have to power police brought polarity to deliver such a, such sort such a piece of, well, it's uh, at 1st glance that sounds very provocative for russian ear, but to a russian the are. but i think the last year and a half has demonstrated that neither is a paper tiger because no, no, regardless of what they say about their military capacity, the ability to muster industrial production to print, to provide arguments for your current has been uh, very limited. so perhaps its not as scary as russia envisaged it to be a year and a half a year. i think it's probably got to fall to describe night to us a, a pipe type of target. but certainly of course, you know, russia and just purely military times as modem, modem, what is the past, the west, and virtually every kind of has the battlefield experience that there was no. yeah,

absolutely, absolutely. yeah. you know what i mean? so the way in the west, i'd like to talk about, well, you know it's, it's been a costly, well for sure. it's, we can rush, it is certainly has been a comfortable for us. are actually rush risk emoji from this company. i would imagine for this country much, much stronger than it was before the war. let's leave it here. it's been amazing talking to you again. thank you very much for coming over. thank you for your protection and thank you for watching hope to say we're again on walter, part of the

sous 2060 numerous monuments to soviet soldiers and poland ukraine, and the baltic states have been destroyed or vandalized fish their stuff, but it must be the most or even some others could ask if i really think so that's the most on whether it's expressed almost 3 of the police government denies the rule of soviet. so just in the victory of a nonce ism, and is it raising historical memories of world war 2? is the $450.00. so when you order, although it did seem the non c regimes, the trustees would remain, thinks in people's consciousness forever. but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the cost to take up the i'll provides for the stadium upstairs. i need the seats in the car to talk. so i need to be the

yes. the, the headlines off the international as the 3rd round of exchanging detained agents expected to happen soon between israel and how about the medicine group announcing a russian citizen will be among those set free celebrations on the streets of the west bank on tennessee eve, on the south of a, of the families from both sides for you and i would love any further negotiations will be done under fire. that is if they want to continue discussing the next time it will be when the ponds are falling and the forces are fighting. israel's defense when at the right the same time is nearly up for a text on gaza to review with any future thoughts. apparently you will be accompanied by an idea of the following campaign.