to all of the questions, some more questions asked the better the answer is will be the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to worlds apart. the conflict in ukraine has already made military history. as the centuries most intense kinetic encounter between 2 large regular armies. turning upside down previously held to is about the nature of war and the nature of peace. is it still cheaper or more profitable to keeping coins rather than trying to settle disagreements that spark that in the 1st place. we'll

discuss it. i'm now enjoying by and geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history a university college court. professor roberts, it's always a great pleasure talking to you double thank you for making it into our studio. thank you for being here for the x x. good. so you get an answer. so in offer our last encounter and sort. sure, well, we had a different topic for our station back down, but in some way, you know, everything is related, everything is connected. and here we are again discussing this time uh, rushes, contemporary history and vicious service disagreements with the west. then in one of your articles or rather in many of your articles, you've been expressing a preference for a negotiated add to the war. in your plan, do you think the time is right at this point? yeah, i think now is may actually be the last time the last possibility in the coming weeks and months to get to your right to some kind of a, a piece of them. if it doesn't happen,

then maybe there will be no that they'll be the not a piece of that. that'd be some kind of forever. we'll all forever contact on. okay, so beam at some point the flight team will stop, but it will start with uh, with that and agreement. and i think that would be um, a terrible situation. most of all for your crime, because in this war is the ukraine. ukraine, people suffered suffolk, the most hundreds of thousands of them killed countries. been devastated? yeah, definitely treat assistance as an independence of insight is a, is a, is a psych i hope that it will be possible to find the way to some conversely far piece of group. but, but, but up obviously that's just a hope. i mean being realistic about it. the challenge is all that stuff that actually won't happen now, or despite the fact that they are at the most suffering side, the premiums are still proclaiming their desire to fight indefinitely. but i think there have been some indicators, including an increasing number of publications in american policies are popular

price that washington is sort of tending the ground for some kind. as you said, some kind of receipts far that's would suspend the violence. but without addressing the major disagreements at the core of these conflict, the disagreements over security between the russian, the west. do you think that's, will me that'll do it 3, and do you think that would be enough simply to add facilities without settling those issues? i, i think it's also important to start. it's not just you crying, the south of russia as all to also self serve as well. many tens of thousands of russian soldiers have been killed. it always has that devastating effect on the pro russian population of eastern and 70 percent on russia. russia as incentives. uh, you know, okay, russia is winning the war but it has a number of the sensors to actually bring the water close as soon as possible. yeah, okay, but going back to a question. yeah, there is a more realistic come discussion developing in the west on the back of the fi

either of this. so cold ukrainian contra funds offensive is become increasingly clear that the russian is winning the water. the over the comfortable is going to be some kind of russian victory may not be of some type of appeal victory by any means with but russ rusher will rent ukraine will lose a longer the will goes on. the more you crime is going to suffer a bit, doesn't it? there's not a prospect of you crying and 60, so it's not, it's up to the ukrainian leadership to take care all for the ukranian people, ukrainian soldiers. and i was off to rush and russia went into this military operation as tragic and terrible as it may be. a speaking of somebody who has ukrainian gross no rush, a one to enter that operation, having a security for all the tests. and one of them you written about them extensively is making sure that ukraine is not turned into a military pop star and for attacking russia. do you think russell would agree to a cease fire without this primary issue being address? no, absolutely not. no rush. i will agree to a cease for

a ceaselessly to the outlines of a piece. so to my mind that fundamentally to that piece, and that would include acceptance, that the date, the new year in a quiet, a glossy, you're trying to put, remind part of russia that the security for it, and no total security for it towards russia is lifted. now protections for pro probably russian, you probably use the will remain we've in the case of control territory. yes. but i think russia would accept some kind of a piece of money on or on, on those terms. so yeah, we've got that for me. that's the biggest help actually for piecing your credit. is that very definitely on one side, on the russian side, there is a willingness to in, to actually go to a direct compromise. the united states has bank calling this a conflict, although the ability to do that, you know, actively is now being questioned by a new one. but still do think the americans can be trusted, even if they trusted for

a long time. if they consent to some sort of settlement on your credit, what, what any, any c. so any piece of the month is going to both rich the, both sides and trust is a problem on both sides. and the new way to find out whether or not it's possible to trust the west and in relation to some. so p set them up pace though is to actually to and the same applies from, from the western western perspective. but we haven't quite got to that point. yeah, yeah. i think russia would be willing to negotiate a compromise space on the west as a little talk about the needs of change western strategy. and i may be taught as law sees, but there's no real as far as i can see, at least politically. there's no a at the moment, there's no inclination in the ways to actually engage in serious piece talks with russia. and certainly certainly isn't any inclination on the policy of crime, you know, i mean, you said that it's up to you crying is to, to look after that, the people. but the reality is that without west and support for your cry, and this will, will come to a name very, very, very,

very quickly into so it's not just ukrainian decision. it's, it's, it's, it's a west to, it's a wisdom decision as well. so it has to be a, any piece the luckily, both obviously involved westbridge can united states as well as you right now. uh, speaking about the western involvement, not the only as far as military support is concerned, but also sort of the guidance and the prodding of, uh, ukrainian, uh, action uh, written uh in one of your articles that uh the much touted summer counter offensive was done and the, the has to offer western military command and that, you know, essentially, what are the chief, the couple of the villages of the cost of tens of thousands of lives for, for the, for the ukrainian are man, i wonder, i mean, the for, you know, for all the people who are concerned about the loss of life and you're praying is the life laws due to the poor ukrainian command, somehow less valuable than

a life loss to let's say russian i ariel, strike us such as no coastal of cost a lot, but best deal as far as or questions about the, you know, the failure of the a crime, you counts offensive. you know, it was a failure that there was a series of, of illusions on the, on the west side, in ukrainian side, illusions about their own strengths, illusions about straight for the russian opponents. all kinds of notions that, you know, russian russian brow was fight, pull that rush, kind of pull them in a tree leadership that puts in was under pressure domestically. you know, it's a, basically the, you know, the go to russia and ukraine was a young adult that just has to be kicked in and the whole structure would come, come sometime and, and those solutions have been shuffled by the actual close. the site is complete side of your crime, you accounts a summer counter offensive. how does result that? there are some very economic things reappraised what's going on in certain quotas, in the last of wisdom policy community. but as of now, there's been

a political shift, you know, they're, they're all these experts that having various discussions, making various proposals, but basically by politically. so i don't know what's the political leader is it because they want to change that policy on your fax. i mean, they haven't been indicated that in rhetoric, but in some way, reality has indicated that for them because we have another major war broken out in the middle east. israel as it requires a norm, a support then institute of terms. it's a, it's much more important for the west done now, or at least for the united states. then the ukraine. how do you think it will change the, the course of events, perhaps not even publicly. i mean, in terms of inter dynamics. why that what it is it's, it's obviously a distraction from new york, right? well, it's obviously requested the version of the, of material results. these as well. i think you're right. i think in the end, certainly as far as the united states is because of maybe not your what happens in, in, in this route, palestine in the middle east. this is much more important than what happens in, in,

in your, in your crime helps any of your against, understand this. i, i sense this and that, that's a pulse is in the west of this falls in the west. the come from the all going to be structured by gulzar, you know, really we're in for the long haul. we have, we're in for a long with, we need to double that and will not commitments to or do you cry. but those kind of like how of, on appeal, so having less with less residents this up, you know, getting and, and public support and public opinion in your, i mean, united states and also thinking russia is moving. i think your price definitely decisively inside of ending the worse and the school because people one the, you know, that budget to be allocated into improving their own lives rather than sense uh, somewhere with questionable results for and definitely the night. they also want to see this little so in your crime soft they'll so what, what to say the, the suspension for escalation. perhaps it's a new to, but i don't want to that, that to be in the they want, you know, attention to re focus on, you know, how serious of come on come like

a. it was pretty cool. come and global issues that we face to do with the environment to deal with medical issues. and so i so tired, there was a problems of migration economic develop. oh, these kind of issues which are inside line because of that the focus on the move toward the war you credit. so as soon as it will come. so then the better off it will be from many, many, many different parts of it. so let's talk about the sort of cor reasons for this war, because american officials make it no secret that from the point of view, the underlying reason for this conflict in ukraine is from their side. the need to preserve the so called who's based order, which in russian terms is the us centric economic and political system, which sometimes is also described as the american hegemony. and i want to ask you as somebody who lives in the west, do you think that system in its current form of historical form but in its current form, but its current priority estimate its current methods?

do you think it serves the interest on the underlying preference says else out of western societies? yeah, yeah, yeah. obviously the west is part of your proxy. will it be frustrating? you're crying and it's not just on behalf if you're crying into somebody off of their own agenda, their own stretch to so you know, it's a will to we can russia to a bit and rush as well as a great, great, great power. preferably they'd like to, you know, see regime change and rush it but yeah, i mean that's good place. so it's also, it's also well to, to maintain what they see is the gym. and they, you know, this approach rules rules by store. but let's imagine they get what they want to, you know, ukraine means rushes defeated put in is driven out of power. and there is a like, a positive like regime in the kremlin one that sol western problems wants to put to put pencil. what problem is you're talking about below? i think it's simple to understand. the nature of the west and project of liberal global here had jamming is actually much more radical than people think. it's not

just about how an interest is about completely ending the system of the state sovereignty. so that by trying to change and they only make it better, assurance was never a perfect system. but it's now much worse than the one that decided to make the world a better place. what exactly, exactly. that's exactly the part of course. um, yeah, the thing about russia and china and other countries that they can take to defend a system based on site state sovereignty and based on the principal and interest in the internal affairs of states, the west. but it is pro date to globalize the system. their values, their rules based based old effectively in this ancient 6. so you can to destroy that traditional site system. so that's a very, very radical project. and anyway that's, that's one of the things that is possibly a psych in relation to the unit. courtney will don't fix the state because you're suggesting that you know what, it's like, we're not going to win. what ways base a thinking a lives and how badly all the gods lose. how, how old are you know, how the house, how,

how long are they going to push is and how cynical they may be in the, in those funds to find. yeah, and the site. yeah, yeah. and the quote professor over it's every half to stuff for a 2nd because, but i still have to abide by the rules of advertising. that will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the

the welcome dr. wells, of course vincent geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history at the university college court professor, members, before they break a, you mentioned that the nature of the western project is far more radical than if let it be known. and i, i think a lot of them and put in, sees it in even darker terms because i think it was last week when he was know, last year when he was addressing develop the discussion club, he accused western leads of not only security encroachments and trying to remain the world in the image, but he also said the or the west and at least the trying to do is to try to change how people relate to culture, to history, free thoughts. we speech their own bodies, social and familial ties. and i think it was a sort of

a philosophical manifesto against this uh, progressive as the agenda which according to humans least is out of touch, not just with core human values, but with for human nature. i wonder if in the sense the warranty ukraine is indeed an opening solve or in the very real class of not just civilizations. i mean, this is the ultimate battle for what it means to be and not just the said, but the human being. yeah. i, i replied to describe the level of projects as a totalitarian project to actually look at family set. that doesn't mean to say that i, you know, disapprove of disagree with many of the liberal values that it involved is, you know, i'm a liberal myself. so i agree with a lot of aspects of the western civilization western tradition. in fact, there's all kinds of things on it just simply i don't, i don't think that we can post those 5 years. what's the child to tell his parents about it because of the your and the exceptions are the status, but it's as, as,

as what pitching was called you pretend to be there while he was describing was, i totally, i totally, that's very project to project, to rewrite the whole world in your image as to whether or not um, you know, the or do you crate, use the touchstone of the successful finding of that project. i'm not so sure. it depends. depends on how long the wall goes on and on, and you know how it ends and when it was, you know, it was to in tomorrow for example. yeah. the world will pay pretty much like it was before the war started. okay. that, that would have been charging the local impacts on your crime. you're changing impact dynamics or old causing it would still be a recognizable, recognizable well, it was all. and if you know, the, the, you know, the western project gets, you know, radicalize itself even further in the face of the feet in new car. and then yeah, we could be looking at a very different wells into it. but it's thinking about the nature of the world, even though it would be a conflict between russian, the west,

the side. it's pretty clear that the nature of international system is changing and apart from rational let's say china, we try the most common targets of curtis has more hatreds in the west. the many regional states that are rising that are exerting their influence power in the immediate neighborhood. and by doing that, they are already in directly challenging uh, western conjunction in they do that not out of political, into political reasons, but simply naturally this is how humanity develops. i mean, this is impossible to change that then there was no longer has enough resources to support that old populations, let alone make other countries play trance tune. this is something that i don't realize because in any confrontation you have to do a cost benefit analysis. sure. and you know, that ideal is use that, you know, set up for distorting your vision. but the, you're obligated to do the basic math for all these people blind to what is

happening around them. because it's not just about the restaurant china or ukraine . it's about the whole world ultimately trying to stand up on its own feet, trying to provide for itself, trying to develop according to its own needs. how can you solve that? yeah, i, i don't see the, well, just trying to as much as people think you have so many things as a result or your client, well, are you quite, was there catalyzed certain things, but they would, they would pre existing trends so. so as a result, your credit for that, it's a continuation of process revival as a great power, china is becoming even might more, more, more major global past the result of the war. and the buffalo, you know, we, we have to realize that the so called a global stop, which, what you will refer to, but you know, the riser to level 5 and the kinds of countries from that part of the searching their independence. trying to call that a new role from 10 to the oh. sure, sure. that had nothing that's been going on since 19 fifties as. yeah, i don't see, you know, the war and you're crying as a, you know, as a,

a fundamentally transformative event as far as the nature of, well, well, the policy is concerned. but, you know, my concern is that the, you know, it could, you know, it could lead to, you know, a factory, you know, a split of the well political system into, into, into permanently conflict take, if not, if, if not more in books, you know, united nations put breakup, and you know, they compete, you know, separate sets of institutions, develop profecia to some extent that this has already happened. then thanks to western own sound defeating moves, i mean, introducing economic pressure on to russia, sanctions, and pressuring out of countries. this is already, this already has led to the creation of alternative schemes of doing business. and surely the if this trend continues uh, those came skills transfer. absolutely. if, if, if that, if that friend continues, um, and that's a trend the might begin to and go, you know, other parts of the world will to what will a political system. yeah, so i don't think we got to the stage with, you know,

the whole the system as well politics to that as me devolving in, in, in the west then globally for the last several years. is that cheap ro, kind of wanted to just integrate. there was some, you know, a indicates as a, in, in that direction. but of course, interesting, you know, russia in china, which are, you know, often per site in the west as being what revision is power is trying to grab well, the rest of us trying to develop yeah, it's, it's of 2 powers, right? they try to be, so what, what is the patient is very strong when he's off to the future. you know, nice disease, very clip is that we, you know, we, we, we don't want to get rid of it. you know, just, we want strength for that. we want to reform it, we want to make it make, make it more more, more effective in the chinese, the site site, the site and fix it. so in that and that way, i know that you know, that there's a, there's a contest going on between, you know, what a friend of mine, richard i photos a saw for an international some. the says, yeah, liberal, a global head, jim, a liberal liberal in that flash, that's a professor,

but i don't understand why do we have to term it as a, as a contest if you develop your and leave your own destiny. and i do the same in the, in my life. why is it a contest? i mean, i agree with you, but it is a concepts. why, why? what, what? because you know that those who favor, you know, global lupo, good germany up assuming that assuming that goes on it's called the percent clear, their goals, by sucking up the resources from the rest of the world. that's the only the episode that goes in all kinds of different ways and this, which in this leading to complete, including, including well, that's just the reality i agree with here. but there's no reason that that should, should, it should, should be in the quote the case. you know, we, we, there's no reason why we can't have a multi pablo, the floor pluralistic well, of solving sites and different civilizations efficient countries get higher maybe. but also, you know, um come up pricing countries into the front of the countries. yeah. one 0, that'd be might. but that was not much that would think about my just calibrating

when it's beneficial to them. and again, we're, we've seen that over the last year and a half when many countries refused to concise with russia simply because, you know, it goes against that own very cynical and but material. but also, you know, national interest, which is probably a good thing to buy. so i think you have to be careful but you know, saying oh, we need self sufficiency when and you'll fit your, your focus on, you know, and national interest that web like a civilization. but as a time during that attitude, not with the dangers that you'll read, reinforcing the radicalism of the west of the project. just, you're actually your pop becoming powerful. we will take all of a diverse, i'm arguing that you have to leave within your own means either. is there a human being or is it is a country in the united states for many, many tickets has been living off the world. and so just by doing that, it is now more in depth is more politically polarized, more govern, mentally, impotent than ever before. so the more resources of gifts from the rest of the

world, the weaker it gets on the inside. and i want to ask you, what do you think may possibly prompt the american public, the american society, the american at least to look in words tend to that old garden instead of trying to mess with everybody else who is actually doing the hard work of trying to develop the site isn't provide for the people this in dignified lives. i think in one sense there's a simple, simple answer to that question. what, what will concentrate their minds changed? it'd be a microscope which i as a new trump presidency, trump, that's what my to, i mean fact you know, going back to our discussion about your pride and then um a change in wisdom perspectives on the part of the some of some fema somebody. but what that really worried about that worried about richard, the return of trump, that word to 5 is going to lose the election. i think the how come by to win the election, which lived in the united states fighting a losing proxy war with russia. india cried, that's that, that's what that new trump sub ministration could really sick shake things up. now

you might say that that, that would be a good thing and perhaps it would be to fix it. but it would also, you know, uh yeah, i bring a lot of a day just a lot because it goes, you know, trump told to pick on lots of things. but it doesn't deliver suffert's office. she told big about cooperation with russia, dates on with russian, polish it with pollution and so, but it was a trump administration that actually started this problem. we did a new crime, but for some reason the process of building up your credit is a night to walk, live on rush as well. just let me ask you about this. i. i know that uh, you have a somewhat controversial position about what would solve this conflict, and this is potentially ukraine's membership in nature, or rather indeed a membership for what is left of your brain. why do you seeing that could be a workable solution? because this is something that i, i'm not sure of the crumbling what, what, what and any to go straight to pay. so, but if there's going to be a negotiated piece of my, make me to what piece will involve some kind of, um, west

a guarantee of your clients future security and dependence. yep. so something i might use actually, the best the site is guaranteed from a rush report would be some full nato, a membership fee of cried for some kind of association with your credit. okay, a okay. that that would be oh, positive. so essentially i did the west take school responsibility for the rec instruction rebuilding of ukraine for providing it with the the reasonable uh, secure the shuttle. and it was also tight to take full responsibility to the crime . will stick to it side of the, of the piano west process as well. okay. i can actually do a more whether the problem is this is not even if it problem is, is there any way to find out dime impressive. i suppose i'll find a better place just no rush at present to didn't go to go to war just for the sake of symbols, the symbol of a few crime becoming a member of night night. so that wasn't the fate. the thing was an actual military for us to rush out in the form of a native military build up on rushes versus boulders. once that, if problem isn't resolved, is it how comfortable i mean,

size is based on the i've seen the reason why russia won't acquiesce in, in your probably becoming a i live like to. and i think, you know, russia is fortunate to have a leader present version. well, i think has the space, you know, it's kind of states one who can actually cross, but that kind of quite radical solution. and also of course, you have to power police brought polarity to deliver such a, such so such a pre some well, it's uh, at 1st glance, it sounds very provocative for russian ear, but it to a russian the are. but i think the last year and a half has demonstrated that neither is a paper tiger because no, no, regardless of what they say about their military capacity and our ability to muster industrial production to print, to, to provide arguments for your credit has been, uh, very limited, so perhaps its not as scary as russia and visit should to be a year and a half. well for your i think it's probably got to follow to describe night to us. are you a pipe type type of target?

but certainly of course, you know, russia and just purely military times as modem, modem, what is the past? the last name? virtually every kind of has a battlefield experience that there was no longer. absolutely, absolutely. yeah. you know what i mean with the west? i'd like to talk about, well, you know, it's been a costly, well for sure. it's, we can rush, it is certainly has been a comfortable for russia, but actually rush risk emoji from this company. i wouldn't much of his country much, much stronger than it was before. the war, let's leave it here. it's been amazing talking to you again. thank you very much for coming over frontier for protection and thank you for watching hope to say we're again on walter. part of the, the,

the release of the russian states never is as tight as i'm one of the most on scheme and the best english i'll send, send up the in the 6595 and speed. what else? suppose question about this. even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say even closer to

the, the black on home? so this sunday nights off the main release light, how most people are the forward. hopefully it costs through the rougher processing it easier with the russian land confirmed to be among the so the races on the sinks in the west bank of farm is ring, you know, i would probably detainees release some part of the saw on files of the state to this vision for lynn and cove of piece to the government stops putting weapons right. the . and i will welcome to you from the inside of the international and news team and