conflict, south africa has taken a very strong stones and it has not shied away from pointing out what it sees as atrocities taking face. and garza what motivates your country to be so cool about this particular course. we have always have had good relationships with the both part is we have had diplomatic relationships with the user. i did case indeed kate's and i think in the future we shall continue doing that. but at the same time, this only data to be the point of simeon paper is at the corner stone of our policy because of the history of where we come from, from we are where we are today as a country because also the data that has been shown by people across the world. so we cannot just hold on my hands and not comment on issues. is that to happen?

you need any corner of the word to the level of those costs to glass up next time, who will be back in the the the the

hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered? non peter labelle, what comes after the ceasefire? will israel look for a way to end the hostilities or will it continue? is more of an i elation. also next year, nato turn. 75 years old. is the align seeking a creative way to induct ukraine into nato. the to discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel way in budapest, he is a pod cast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and american s. we have martin j. t is an award winning journalist and commentator or a gentleman cross type roles in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want and i always appreciate it. okay, to start out with george and in budapest look as we're speaking gentleman. the ceasefire was holding the 2nd day was it was a bit wobbly. some doubts into going into the night, but they made it through so um, there's every reason to believe that uh,

the ceasefire. pause exchange of how of, of captives will proceed. i don't think there's much doubt about that. it's what comes after, and i think that's really the big question and they'll still be a lot of captives in gaza. we and there are a lot of military officials as well from us, is not going to give them up very easily. we've seen in the past, i think it was for one soldier, a 1000 prisoners. the problem is really jail. so this is, this whole process of exchange is far from over and they would really be letting you know whose government has made it very, very clear with the blessing of the, by the administration. but hostilities will continue. so what george the day after this uh, law in, um the uh, the fighting, what happens? i think that's a really good question. i don't think anybody has exactly the answer. i'm so i'm

asking you to kind of, you know, but i currently don't have the owns of my feeling is that given the very new motional response on the bottom, these radius to the hostage release. and those are just the 2 more days of these. um uh, release us to come, i think is going to be very difficult to go back to the um, the, the same mass bombing and destruction that was go prevalent before the the, the exchange because i just don't think these way the public good will stand it and there are still some 200 hostages left. this where it is one of the release, i mean they, they, they, the very, very distressed about it. and they're already been, you know, these mass demonstrations, even yesterday in israel, demanding that the remaining of hostages be released. so i,

dentist saying that it, yes is ro will resume it's bombing and is disruptive campaign. but i think that it's going to gradually wind it down. i think that it's, it's difficult for them to, for the government to sustain this public support. they losing it if not completely lost the whatever international support that they have um, even the by the ministration has become exasperated as well. so i did this thing, but it will gradually be wound down and then they'll be more of these um, pauses and um, hostage exchanges uh, down the road before. finally uh, some, some kind of a ceasefire as cobbled together. well that happens, or you know that, that, that in itself is also very difficult to say. well, not a martin during all this more and more of god is, is uninhabitable. they just can't live there. there's no infrastructure at all to

get it to sustain existence here. so i, i think i'm actually think the, the, the, the israelis will, with, with great fervor will continue. the operation may be less so on the ground, but certainly the bombing because martin, one thing that's not only does october 7th, mean a lot to a lot of people in israel fair enough. but having to have to negotiate with him us . this is, this is really, really difficult for them. okay. because when i mentioned earlier on the 2nd day of the exchange, there was a hiccup here in the know and, and it was some us saying, oh, you're not fulfilling the agreement. so in that, that's infuriated, and i think that, you know, when you know, when this 4 day exercise comes to an end, i think the israelis going to have just as much fervor and anger and their demand for revenge. and whatever the costs you georgia, you're right, they don't have any international support left. so what the biden administration is

behind is the expect thanksgiving speech that they even didn't. yeah. who gave okay . basically whatever it takes. so i'm very pessimistic martin. i'm also very pessimistic is what i think um and this and how you come back after the cisco, i was all done blazing. i was thinking it actually intensify the campaign to, to make his point. those couple of issues here. first of all, his own support is dwindling rapidly. i wrote an opinion piece, i think of the one week say how long is missing? yeah, i've got, i, i, i'm not putting myself on the back from my persistence, but i think he hasn't got long home. i think is an awful lot of his really is a wondering where he said there's no way we're gonna vote for this coalition again and, but in his nose and popularity is plummeted. so there's pressure on him at home. but i think internationally, it's the key internationally. there are too many western leaders who on the one hand buying the drum and say, israel has every right to into sales in it. but on the other hand, i'm looking at the numbers of people in london. i'm an,

an american in dc and around the world and thinking how much longer we got politically, if we don't do something about this useful life, you know, so you have staying and those them who were to come out and really faced a campaign for us. these for immediate recognition on morris and media recognition of a police new state, if one or 2 other e and my mistakes joined them, which i guess they will assume outputs. and that's known as campaign on a stop watch. and he may, will be thinking like we've done the 7 week, something like that. um, can we do another 7 or 8 weeks? i'm get another 15000 to say it probably isn't 15000 festival. it may will be 30 or 40. we just don't know who's, who's under the rubble, you know, but he's probably thinking he needs to intensify this because he thinks that he can bring almost to his needs and he can give that victory, that unconditional surrender. but another factor to this is that he wants to not let inside probation anyway. well that, that will say, that's the point martin in, and i throw it back to george here because, you know, we, the biden is saying, you know, he supports israel's, a goal of eliminating how might,

as well do far as i am concerned. that's just code for eliminating the palestinians . josh, well, i, i don't know um the of of the bite me in this ration has said what we will not accept will not accept a re occupation of garza by israel. we will not accept the estimate a cleansing and that all of those things are happening. well, um, nothing is happening except that isn't and they may need another on a permanent basis. and then ultimately then what is, is real good. you can go on doing. i mean, yes, i can go on uh on the pointers disruptive, crazy. but they're not going to succeed in driving out the palestinian population minutes. and it's clear that egypt is not going to go along with a jordan is not going to go along with it. the by the administration isn't going to go along with the so, you know, he can go on doing this. but these really public i think,

is getting very wary of this and after that and you know, they're obviously very hostile towards the and it's in the apple. yeah. he's, he's politically, he's done. um, but they want the hostages back. i mean, at this stage, you know, the little there was the feeling is what get we've made a point, but we want that. we want the hostages back and, and then the, the idea that we're just going to go on bombing and bombing. and then these people say, well where, where are hostages? i just don't think that's going to happen. so, you know, this is the problem of all these previous, um, what we call this of moving the law and exercises, you know, is ro promos away. and then finally, when, when you know, they haven't really achieved anything very much, oh they, they call it a day and then just kick the can down the road. so you know the next guy and yeah, but, but martin, this is qualitatively and quantitatively this, this exercise of moving the lawn is a different magnitude. i mean totally different magnitude. and as i've already

mentioned, the parts of the gaza strip now are completely uninhabitable. the, the, the cost and then you'll have to remember that kate is going to continue. so, um, uh, you know, i, i tend to think that, um, there is this kind of messy on the urge push that they want to destroy as much as possible. but you may not be, might not be bombing them anymore, but you, there's, there's no way to, to, to live. okay. and considering being these railways have been very stingy about aid coming in. um i, i think this is just being an ethnic cleansing by different means martin, but it is thing that can continue the blow create of age. i think that would be a huge political point. you know, took a iran cut a countries that really, really, really angry with this route and this in yahoo. and they are literally frosting at the mouth until he's been having a number of meetings with the run. you know, we comp mess with turkey. you just comp mess with that size on me is that

discipline on me? you know, which is and they to a member. we can't afford to go down that road. but i think those countries will demo and when the, when the dust settles, they will adopt gaza and they will basically rebuild in a couple of years old of those problem blogs or those institutions arise everything . and what, what is real do then, you know, i mean, i think it'd be a question here. going back to the, to the, to the 66 weeks. so 8 weeks will come that, you know, do another run and he's done. i think the clock is really ticking and i think it will be countries like cuts and took a who will actually put pressure on through back channels, the button administration and the a you and more a members days to say low enough is enough. let us now build the to stay solution. we will come to casa and we will build and then, you know, we haven't got any situation that will the full that nothing you know, you can play with now he's pushed himself into a cool anybody. the other thing is, is it, israel, i mean, a lot of his release, a lot of humble is ready to begin as well as themselves. how do we continue up to this? how do we function?

we were an internationally plugged in the country to the rest of the world. you know, how do we explore goods? how do we trade? how do we, there was so much. i'm a, i'm girls. there is so much um, well yeah. okay. yeah. fair enough. martin j but you know what, how many of these countries have cut diplomatic relations with israel? okay. where is the, um, the uh, oil embargo is george has mentioned in the past. okay. uh, there's a lot of anger, but i mean, when it comes to policy, i still think there's a lot of weakness, particularly in the air bro, george, as we finish up this, a part of the program here. how does bite me move forward? i mean he is running for re election. we have um a 70 percent of young people polled. do not like his foreign policy. i think that's obviously what when in reference to the gods. so, but i think some of this i'm excited with we ukraine as well, is a permanently stained by this really adventurous foreign policy of his well i,

i would like to think that that so and, and that's probably so, but there is one cavity as well that is that, um, you know, if with this, this come to an end, let's say within the next, um, well lets say something within the next 2 months it comes with it. so that takes us through to uh, january. you know, whenever we restart the primary season, um, you know, what does the democratic body do in those circumstances? well, they do what they always do, which is, oh my god, if you don't provide me, the big bad, horrible orange man is going to come in. you have to do everything you can't do the vocal by me and all those young people who are not protesting about is the legal. are there any way you think i'm allowed from to come in the big orange man as a even bigger supporter? at least able supporter of israel as the by the ministration gentlemen going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real and stay with our to the

is it's, it's can be started by line. please can be satisfied for the importance of we can never be kind of a study since that transparency is next for to region listed. cametrius then just succeeded in finding documents that exist state and making them available to the public. i mean, what could be more moving box by publishing information and sharing information with the public? he was exercising the right to free speech. he did so in the public interest. watched as a mommy of wise tends to me and tell him to a slate of late continuously. i know why device may have

already said no one who is the guy that illegals anymore wisely bought. adjustments for him to be on box weighing a $174.00. he used to do it to the extensions. are we going to let that stay the welcome x across that were all things are considered non piedro, though this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news the let's go back to george and the change gears here, the, the, you and i've been using about over the last few weeks on how the nature wants to become like, who do you need? you know, they want to be a magician's, they want to come up with creative ideas. okay. and obviously i'm making reference

to ukraine after all, next year is the 75th anniversary of the alliance. they're all very, very proud of themselves. and even though it's completely failed to keep the peace in europe, its primary mission. and we have heard of these different ideas that, you know, you don't have to recognize that russia has a territorial control over the down bass to other regions and, and try me. and we'll just pretend they don't. okay? and the you don't have to walk away from what just going to pretend. and then you know, the old and tried tried and tire some policy. how about a no fly zone? okay, is it that's like an a new idea. okay. i mean grasping at straws, but as the alliance goes up to its 75th birthday, you know, most people retire before 75, george and i think maybe you know, the realize i'd be thinking about that too. okay. but they, they got to put a good. i got to put some lipstick on this peg. george. oh, yes, i see so well. the yes. the 75th birthday party that's coming up. um,

next july. i, dentist, thing the nato cannot do what he did in vilnius last year, just to fall ukraine off with, you know, you know, of a bunch of meaningless words and of had on the head a problem. i have, i have to do something to say that, hey, you know, we, we have accomplished something in ukraine and, and that's why i think of it is very significant. the, those, i mean, this is something we've discussed before, of those 2 um articles that appear recently, you know, one by on this photographs, moves them to form and they just say for general, one by admiral james, the read is the form of supreme allied commander is one of the 2 most senior people in nature and the most that we can do is we can actually but induct ukrainians and they, so um and then we just present russia with the fed complete. are you ready to escalate

and, and wage war against nature and russia has throughout this so several special mother drop ration as shown. great reluctance to extend the war and ukraine to any nato, tara trip. so i did this thing that, you know, they've given the leap, you know, this is the stature of these 2 whole says, you have to say this is a stalking cause. and when nato made is previous mistake in 2008 is that instead of being public, we will bring your brain into and they to that game rush at the time to prepare an act. so what do you plan now? thinking of those when we're not going to say it in public, we're just going to announce it. this is done. we've done it with way with being and gone and done. ukraine is now in nato, and there's nothing rusher can do about that. i was think this will happen, but i do think that this is what they're thinking about. and i know that that that is a really playing the ultimate game of chicken because martin. okay, what,

what's, what's the se brussels does that, you know stilton bird that's, you know, it's going to be his parting gift to the world. does rush hadn't necessarily have to recognize it? it may or may not, and it may continue. it's a operations in ukraine while the rest of the lions thing. so you crane is a member, so i would throw the other way. so do you, do nato countries want to actively get involved in war against frustrated go, cuts, both ways go ahead. bismark is just so many things wrong with it. you know, it has when you, when you think of these people you need. so you know, a acolytes with a problem. ukraine is rather like come witnessing somebody standing over sick dog, beating it with a stick. you know, and the mo, the sick, the don't guess, you know, to the, how do they beat, hoping for a magical solution. that's really the crazy thing. miscalculation, miscalculation layer, upon layer. this is just another one of those saw fetched ideas. you know, you're going to be going to pity the nato

a lot. when they have that puts you in july, you know, what are they going to celebrate? and that's the problem. you've got ukraine, which is a spectacular failure. you know, and, and people are admitting it, it's not like people have been quiet. you know, a number of native leaders are actually alluding to this. americans are saying some of the most important people in the, in the, in the washington swamp. i was saying, is this a war that we can when we, you know, we're old enough, 3 of us old enough to remember, that was the rest, the rick at the end, the vietnam will. he knows it's not, can we, when it is, you know, is it, is it winnable on any level, any emotional level? of course it isn't. you know, i think there are a couple of points wrong with the form and they to the secretary general's idea. you know, the ukraine kind of have sort of semi membership off base membership of nate. so he actually said, you know, it's a cooler read that some once that was set. so once you crane with hands this sort of, um, special states as membership of nato rush,

it wouldn't the inside of that point because it would be a talking and they so many, but they're already there. i know, but i think that's tied to the fort as really thank you. you know, um, because again, you know, puts, it doesn't put the emphasis on russia. it puts the emphasis then back again on the west, and they to states to do what if then russia attacks, it will be back on there for the to another point is the nature is not an institution that does state building and you know, it's very difficult to have really criminally blackwood corrupt the countries in it to you know, to set the level to set the standards towards countries like georgia, for example, you know, and aspiring to become a member member, a state of nature. so it doesn't do the unlike the e you the pretends that does that nature doesn't build democracy in one of the, one of the big points. one of the, um, the, to, to, to join the nicer club. you're supposed to have a pretty clean slates on corruption and the levels of democracy, even though it was in the us, it was less reported that some countries offered uh,

you know, a get out of jail cod from for is it integrated bypass that rule in line in but i think the hardest bit to swallow of this is that in the document in that proposal, there was a suggestion, was that some, those regions that you were talking about would just be handed back to russia and forgotten about. and the problem with that of course is and that's can self. so this case has been the 1st on the table so hard and so long and said that is not negotiable. that throws up. another question between now and july is if the nature policy is going to go ahead, could it go ahead without zalinski as well because the problem. yeah, yeah, it was a, that's exactly at george, but i'm go going back to these, these nato plans, but they're not thinking in terms of security, say that that's again, nato isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. thinking in terms of collective security, what their, that this magical thinking, and that's exactly what it is,

is it increases in security for everybody involved. me. it's doing exactly the opposite of what it was designed to do. george? well, that's the pay to his original dad trip. we talked the other day about this a voted crisis. there's just been manual to that of sitting there when school and, you know, here has been the, you know, no, no problems. adult, 77 years now is joining nato alone bill that there's a border crisis with russia. so, you know, may need to be, you know, is the, you know, it has to justify its existence and therefore it has to continue to manufacture the prices that he then presents itself as the solution to was. but now i'm now in this case of um, inducting uh, nato, infecting your brain into nato on the slide. it would probably go together with some kind of a, a, an honest so now let's just, let's stop fighting for the time be. so leave a slide to start with a, with a rush,

we will accept this, but if it goes together with that is a, we know that to the accepting that these there, which is a loss. and that the, the now bother from russia. we just will stop fighting for the time being, you know, ally, you know, korea, you know, vietnam, us or you know, at the time of geneva conference in the fifty's. and this is the way americans often operate, which is, well, nothing is just settled. we'll leave it into the future. and then of course, make nato can the stop this whole thing up all over again. yeah. right. i mean, you really quick. so it appears what appears to be in play here is that they just can't order the words we lost. okay? so martin, they basically is this, they, you know, just to it just enough to keep the lights on. okay. i mean, just the know, you know, that's what or whatever it takes means now is the, we keep, we pay their bills, we keep the lights on, and we, we could keep up the rhetoric. but at the there's essentially they just the,

it's essentially accepting defeat just not saying martin, but how long does that go on for, you know, i don't, i don't think for that much longer then he will get to the punch you in july before number of commentators a number of member states will start say that something has to be done. some things to be done about ukraine. i'm quickly because nato itself as a credibility problem. you know, the tickets is not since the beginning of the world, you know, nato is had a fresh shot of new life, you know, injected into it. um, the ukraine will gave it a new identity, you know, following up from, from microns brain dead comment. i think that before that i don't imply that i don't think that's still the case. i think the big of the whole before. and if you're setting yourself up to be a huge international security operation, but you're afraid of finding one bullet. i'm sending one man to the front line and i'm just touching and dr. ducking every waving all through weaving. so every

possible different magic sopa so that you don't guys will, and that you just play the escalation code, everything every now and again. and you know, but at some point we're going to look for escape goods, you know, between now and july. and so let's start with the big escape. there is, he's being he's having a pressure put on him by some people in congress to hold elections next. a say no, no, this is a wrong time for elections. you know, i mean, like, mess him, yahoo, you know, there's a, there's a link that like missing the, i, these are both leaders that know if they went to the post today they wouldn't win. so, um, you know, if there was a sudden that isn't as he's still a puppet of the but the ministration for as long as by and decides, you know, this is wonderful cartoon mem created on the social media of one of the blinds and putting his hand on the shoulder of zalinski, as lensky is looking up to him, look into the boy saying, um, but use it until the end. and, but in the system, this is the end. well actually i think we're going to reach that point between now

and july. my my and $0.50 my crate of getting is so tray of bread putting batch is the zalinski is going to be edged out of power. i think before those celebrations can go ahead and share, but then what is the value of of need? so for ukraine, i mean it's a big so you know, some magical way george they get in. so is, is the, the 52nd airborne going to start bombing russia? i mean, none of this makes any sense. let's go ahead. the last for the last 15 seconds, go to the bottom of the station, has invested the great dealings of this floor. i don't think that just going to let go of it. i just thought that's all the way the americans offer it. and so let's gives a useful 1st and then you know, you the, you know, he's a jewish as they keep or binding us as the and you no longer have the alibi about be the will the nazis into you? would you rather than so if you don't have a jewish present and then you know yourself, okay. it's always to be i, again, i'm

a token is a mean american foreign policy. i think the good all the time we have jonah and then when i think my gets america's and in budapest and of course i want to thank our viewers. been watching us here already. so you next time. remember across top roles the, the, the,

the contractor says on agreement has been reached with is well on how much is to end of the color of the seeds far for another 2 days. it had been due to squire today and the rest was very harsh. they stormed my house, threatened to arrest my family, and my nephew's children, i suffered a lot. we have the inside story from one of the policy in prison is released by as well as part of the ongoing sort of do a 9 year old is related to all these, all the thoughts she was dead. it said that her family alive the.