it would be difficult soccer to square it, very challenge traditional notions of sovereignty of that or thought and integrity of the rule of law. i don't know how it's going to happen. it's not going to be easy. but unless you either freeze the conflict or you continue this for several years in a kind of a low grade, you know, situation, but i don't know which way to go all invested or we have to living there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in us. thank you so much for having a wonderful. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to sir again and walter part the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the

the, [000:00:00;00] the, the hello, i'm manila chan. you're tuned into modus operandi. earlier in 2023 us president joe biden surprised and disappointed. many people around the world when he authorized sending kids pentagon stop piles of cluster munitions. these munitions have been banned by most of the world, including most u. s. allies. yet nobody took a diplomatic measures to block the movie. today will explain what these ordinances

are and why the us should join. it's natal partners in the band. all right, let's get into the m. o. the nearly 20 years ago, a comprehensive treaty was developed to banned the use of cluster munitions. these versatile weapons have a long and ugly history around the world, especially their extensive deployment in laos, cambodia, and vietnam during the c i is secret war. so just what our cluster munitions folder basically a larger looking bomb, the houses, hundreds of smaller bonds. these munitions can be fired from the ground by all sorts of artillery systems dropped by aircraft. and the disburse mid air spreading . these so called bomblets or bomb beads indiscriminately. those smaller many bonds are supposed to explode upon impact,

sending shrapnel in every direction. the idea is to cause maximum carnage against the enemy. but as you'll learn today, that is not the reality of what happens to the bomb these historical records. tell us that us cluster munitions have over a one percent fail rate. they don't explode as intended. and so what happens is they remain dormant in the ground for sometimes decades as in laos, for an unsuspecting civilian to accidentally step on kick or whatever, maybe a farmer telling their land. most of the civilians, however, are children who think their toys because they look like a tennis ball. a little tennis ball sized or, or you may think a one percent fail rate is actually a good number. but you'd be wrong when you consider the 10s of thousands of the bond lists that are actually released since the 2008 convention on cluster

munitions. more than a 100 countries have signed the treaty, including france, germany, the netherlands, the u. k. and 20 other nato allies and partners such as japan and australia. but the us, russia and ukraine have not signed on. in fact, for the u. s. d o, the policy issued in november of 2017 permits. the use of all the millions of cluster munitions stocks, quote, until sufficient quantities of enhanced and more reliable versions are developed and filled it. and the pentagon policy also pays the way for the us acquisition of cluster munitions from foreign sources to replenish its stock. according to human rights watch, meaning the us has to get rid of its old stockpiles somehow. so they can make way for the acquisition of new munitions. so to talk more about the ravages of cluster

munitions will bring in a guest who has had on the ground 1st hand experience with the sab results of the use of these weapons. a sarah collette della is the ceo of legacies of war and share person for the us campaign to band land lines and cluster munitions coalition. you can follow her on twitter or x as they are calling it these days at sarah collab della. thank you so much for joining us, sarah. so there's a lot of talk lately about cluster munitions because of the war and ukraine after the us decided to send keys of some of the pentagons old stock piles. and i think it's fair to speculate that some of these old stockpiles came from decades ago when the c, i a range these down onto

a louse during the sixties and seventies. talk to us about the kind of devastation cluster munitions cause and is there any impact to these types of arms as they age? meaning could perhaps older munitions have a higher failure rate to detonate, then say newer ones? yeah, i'm the basement behind me on terrorist. i think this issue. so 1st i just want to say that as someone who s version witness my father, i, doctors used to go up there. i work on numerous win victims. i sort of worries us so, and then my accidents, i know the version, the horrors that these types of indiscriminate that'd be what is can have on civilian population. so, you know, was a little bit about the munitions boston question. right. so to by the administration, announce on the last time that it was transferring munitions to you. my and those munitions are now be used by the any and military. and the ones that washes

are strong. do you 19 eighties? so these are the m 864, and they're at least 30 years old. and now you are absolutely right. you know, once these munitions are sitting in our saw pile, they do age and there's where i share. but i think the, the plan that we should be focusing on is there are 2 types of civilians during and after the conflict. not a desperate right. i think the battery is just right here. and i because we know that the latest march report on the documentation was just released this week and states that these weapons impact 90 percent of civilians and 60 percent of those civilians are children. that means they're under the age of 18 or right.

and like you, i'm allow heritage, my own family were victims of us, cluster munitions, my paternal grandfather and my dad. then 7 year old little brother died as a result of the secret war in the 1960. so for me, this is deeply personal as it probably is for you. but this isn't a problem that is left to history. is it? i mean it's, it's still a persistent problem. it allows today yeah, no 1st, no, thank you for sharing to your own personal story. because i do feel that there you see more and more people share this as part of just really have drain the history, learn from it as well as you'll find tonight. and to me, this is a 2 day problem. so today allows every single problems, all 17 problems and the capital city. again, john has some form of contamination,

right? and these are on bonds are draw exactly 50 years ago. i was just in laos and you know, 2 weeks before i flew out in august, there was a traffic accident that occur insight ons. and this involves 3 children, all under the age of 10. so to 10 year old and a 5 year old little girl just phone lawyer and i was just laying around. it doesn't need it. and it showed all 3 children and injured one. you know, where any sessions dot receive funding from the united states government to try to address this. we're able to just call the expense on the medical expense for the injured and then the funeral and basi by traditional religious therapy for the 3

children whose last parish. so dot is jet in july, that happens, right? and today, the national regulatory authority, the governing body of the year, 10 miles estimates that at least 20000 people. so cavities of these unexplored awareness, these 5 decades old still are in need of chair. and that, you know, that doesn't tell you that this is a problem today. i don't know what was the right way. we have countless id. my meetings are the myers, are working to clear these orders, but still to just j less than 10 percent of the area miles has been cleared. and they're still has great need for funding to use these organs to provide a minus education for victims. like the ones i shared with you inside this, which currently does not have any minus education curriculum or at the mining teen . um, not to mention the victims of the war right after the war as well as

unfortunately, unless we these ordinance i the future as well. yeah. now it's my understanding and correct me if i'm wrong, but roughly 40 percent of laos is currently completely uninhabitable due to the mass proliferation of u. x. those all over the country. talk to us about those cleaning efforts and allows. yeah. so you know, fortunately, manila is not 40 percent this 30 percent, that's the estimation. right. so 130 else i still have contamination and this is, you know, i swore or games on there's a least a 183 different types of ordinance that's littering. the beautiful landscape laws and you know, as the back and i'm very how that the guy stage, the leading slender glo lee on

a measuring the my. so since 1993, the united states invested at least for lifestyle $1000000000.00 for clearance due for a 100 countries. and that includes loss. so due to, you know, legacy to war, our supporters are partners, obviously. athletics, this year and miles is receiving $25000000.00 for the class afterwards. because this has been on my reservation. how the united states. and this is a lot of money, but i'll give you just a quick perspective in the us. then $16000000.00 a day in today's dollar, buying wirelessly 9 straight years. so 25000000 in my opinion, is a drop box. we need to download or i guess miles has to be cleared, which is yours. mine's lifetime a. yeah, and this is

a problem that we know how to resolve and we have play the miners that stand ready to do this class effort. but they need more funding. they need to stay. yeah. id be able to expand the team and provide more my collab 2 children showing that the dangers of these explosive. right. yeah. and you know, like the laughter that i have to kind of has to go to hollins, the entire boss. and you know, to give you an idea of how she use the my work is i visited at d, h, i, or imagine inclusion team in northern products. and this is a project that's funded by the netherlands. so they have another one. and i hope they'll continue to find the h i team doing this work, but the entire loss is very mountainous, right. so there's a lot show. the train is very difficult to access my team and i had to

bring a plane to some. yeah. and then take a 3 and a half hour bought the car, i to get to the mining site. and then i slipped out to the area where you want me to clean a job. but it's really difficult because in order to clear the land you have to remove saw the best ation, right? so meaning unclear and yet, so you can even get in there. and then maybe you're taking all the necessary precautions for yourself as well as all the things before just in that nation. i that requires them to announce that the villagers coordinate with other people living in the area as well as their livestock to make it safe for clearance and that nation can happen. so this is, you know, um there's a lot of process and it requires like immense dedication to training as well as

just like the perspective that you are to ensure that you might in the lives are staying as well as all the people that live in that area right, especially to your point about $45000000.00 for this one year. if we look at the broader pentagon budget of $845000000000.00 this past year alone, that is certainly less than a drop in the bucket. i say please sit tight, we're going to come back with you for some more. don't go anywhere, sarah. coming up next, the us off and credits itself with being a champion of human rights. but it's track record would suggest otherwise. we'll discuss it when we return with sarah. pull up the last a tight. m. o will be right back. the the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the or is the

case of the med, most of the people i've tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington, as for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals. what are some of the living will not have very close propaganda. you know a price here in new york, i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions, ask a better. the answer is will be accepted. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you can do, do not watch my new show it seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please. i do have the state department to see i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm

probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the welcome back to the m. o i manila chance. we're continuing our conversation about the cluster munitions with our guest. sarah collab deluxe sarah is uh, the ceo of legacies of war. thank you for staying with us, sarah. so in spring of 2023, you published an op ed in usa today calling on president vita not to sent cluster munitions to ukraine, but also for the us to join the 100 plus countries in a multi lateral treaty to banned the use of them. the convention on cluster munitions entered into force back on august 10th of 2010. so as of now the us has

not signed onto the convention. do you think part of that is because the convention calls for member countries to clear contaminated areas within 10 years. and because it requires members to destroy all of its stock within 8 years now, add to that the requirement to provide assistance to victims like a victims compensation fund. i mean, is that all perhaps too tall in order for the us, especially as it pertains to allows so great question. now i think the best person to answer that would be president by and congress. what i can say now is, you know, as the chair of the u. s. c, l, c, and z, or you can change that landline cost municipal lesson. we are really concerned with the possible issues that the united states have transferred to ukraine. and we have consistently, you know, my polish and colleagues,

9 asked administration for more heresy for clarity as well, or tend to like stop sending the munitions. now the united states have at least 1700000 class shows this file and rockets in arsenal. point to the human rights watch. definitely per led to $500000000.00. so munitions, you know, that's a lot of issues. a lot higher. right. and these are bands my or 120 countries for a reason. one, there is going to that, right? they cannot how the difference between the or small tile, they don't have any mechanism that will solve the straw. so that means the cheese or countries like louse, claudia, and again, now we're talking 5 decades, and we're still cleaning uh, dw weapons and she both has to be our, our actual line. um,

now our us government will say that we are leaning towards, you know, doing everything that the conventional cost munitions would require a signature forey. um, you know, the latest insure, 2017 i, there's a mandate that requires congress to not be able to transfer any munition that have a better way of overlying percent. her binding is violated. i cindy's house munitions, which is on government have said that has a den i don't rate of 2.35 percent right now. oh, this is, this is above the lower side, right. but still, i see we cannot track the report, the hub, any time the use of munition and a bad feel, always have consistently shown that is different from race. that is the course. right,

right. and when you look at what is like the congressional service review reports on the goddess phone, on how to report all these nations, the rates are different. i. i'm in the case of the 2022 rational service you were in the manufacturer, stating that the the, the rate is between let to buy sense. but do you mind uh, do you mind me 1st experts with these uh, the rate uh between 10 to 30 percent. now in the case of or that we have already witness. right. like the war miles. oh yeah. yeah. and um, so that nation rate, those daily rates, those done rates, excuse me. so those that rate are anywhere between 10 to always of 30 percent as we seen in los. yeah. and you have actually just recently returned state side after a visit to allows this summer. i have seen

a lot of new videos on social media. recently of developments across laos, like the new high speed rail built by a chinese investment that goes from beyond john. the capital city all the way, uh, north into united province china. there's a large, upscale shopping mall that looks like any mile you'd find in america built by a malaysian investment group. the russians are building out new infrastructure at the beach on airport. do you think this speaks to one like the spirit of the allowed people to move past it's designation as the most heavily bombed country on the planet. but as a double edge sword, do you fear that seeing so many new positive developments there, that people might forget the ravages of cluster munitions that still linger especially all over the countryside? yeah, you know, you're feel like there's

a lot of the development in laos and national geographic. i just actually the top 4 nations bridge. my time 3 last you know, i don't want you are not there to be that i'm just because last is deals. how we bought a history that there is and it's a few a right. there's so many beautiful places for torres. what, who, you know, in my home town i saw the clear german or have already been cleared and a safe for taurus mouses during the 2 chairs twice me or i'll see on it to be the chair of us unit twice before. so there's a lot of people know being lost in the house is little bit for investments in the, for the partnership with the rest of the world. so i'm very proud of that and i'm proud of you know, the car right? hiding just because regardless of the task the people allow,

these are single for it and the people wow, is there to see my point of view as it's more progress neighbors. but to answer your question, the are number one priority. manila is asking me issue, meaning to remove the munition to make is the worst people and all the elements of this beautiful country are they actually adopted in addition to the sub change sustainable development goals that hundreds of countries of the doctor over the world. you know, prioritizing lake power the equity generate quality loss added a s d g 18. so that's last week for my for now. so you know, in addition to the united states, finding cleaners offers other countries like the u. k. norway, a turkey of funding clearance offers in laos de la p are also investors

own money and resources to do this work as well. yeah. let's, let's hope that all the shiny new shopping malls, people don't forget that this is still happening. like you said, every day people are still dying of this and allows so last question here. you've spoken to the survivors, many of them from the secret war survivors of the cluster, munitions, you x those bomb, is there a lot of names for this stuff, right? what is your take away from their stories? if you had to summarize them all, what is it that you want the international viewers watching this to think about this overall conversation? yeah, um, you know, i think it's simple. my, this is a problem that has a solution. we know that in the words you say more lives and make the landline useful, is to remove and destroy these orders. nice and more. funding needs to be

a priority. meaning, you know, like, let's make sure that you, wars are happening all the world in china, nations happening. it's not just, you know, the latest report shows that you mar, there's also as new germination, syria, as new germination. right? this is a little problem with at least 30 countries impacted by these definitely is governance cost of munition. so we know that there is a solution. we just need to really power eyes. those as part of the funding that is consistently being allocated to support countries like while they're trying to move forward from this. and i hope that in addition to, you know, defining support from the united states. other countries also do not forget about literacy. one is in places like last claudia. yeah, i guess and you know, the list is going on and you know, it's really the media needs all to pay attention to this. and she does not. why?

because while toward miles has already lived in over 50 years. people are still being made and injured today. you know, and i mean that watching she's done was it is the $1.00 will be invested in this. yeah, absolutely, that is the hope, a appreciate your time and the work that you and your group do. circle up the lot is the ceo of legacies of war and chair, person for the us campaign, the band land mines and cluster munitions coalition. you can follow her on twitter if you still call it that, like me and sarah loved all out. thank you so much for your time, sarah. now. all right, that is going to do it for this episode of motor operandi the show that digs deep

into foreign policy and current affairs. i'm your host manila. chad. thank you so much for tuning in. we'll see you again next time to figure out the m. o, the, [000:00:00;00] the take a fresh look around is a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really one say better wills,

and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground can in the at least 700 palestinians killed in just 24 hours that these will expand its attack on solving gazda with thousands of civilians to seek shelter. we felt strongly, i'm steadfastly in northern garza, and now we're doing the same in the south as we also continue to protect our games