to hold on the as possible. enjoy the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter a little. the quintessential for him policy genius or one of the greatest mass murderers in history. kissinger might have been both and much more dis, death was not on timely, but his legacy still hans, us, in many ways he initiated some of the worst aspects of american foreign policy.

the to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess george, send me well, in budapest, he is a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. in america, we have martin j e. as an award, winning journalist and commentator, or a gentleman cross up rules and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciate it. all right, george, let's start out with you. in budapest, um, as i said in my interaction, it wasn't on timely. he did make it to 100 years. i think the as last major trip was last year to beijing, so he was and they had a vote, a very up of filled life to the very, very end. but he also has a legacy. it's an understatement to say it's mixed. but i would contend that it's not much different than a lot of other secretaries of state sense, but we'll get into that. go ahead. george, as well is the no question. it's

a m a mix legacy. however, i think if one thinks about kissinger's, he is in power, as opposed to he is sick of band take up to seek we is he is out of the bathroom. most of his life was really out of wow. growling and i got carrying favorites, little love the 50 years, but during his he is in power either those will years of diplomatic accomplishments. some of those we years of major arms control treaties signed is in which the united states managed to extricate itself from the war in vietnam. and the look for a while, as of the united states would not be able to ever accomplish that. um, but it was with the use of a, a house, a productive relationship with the soviet union, a game which seemed unlikely in the decades before,

during the 19 fifties and early 96 is and then of course it, you know, disappeared. you know, within a few years of the end of the mix, some kissinger. yes. so when you contrast that with the accomplishments of the successes, i think it specs up quite favorably. um, you know, it's hard to think of the last couple of decades. what diplomatic accomplishments the united states has a cheese? no, i mean you'll come think of any major treaties of the united states, assign any major um diplomatic initiatives that the come for a, i mean what the recent years of being characterized by the forever was, was that just go on and on forever and no one can actually even explain what they're about with a garage, syria, libby a, i've got a style and then you know, you can just go through the list. what are they about and know the president will separate?

just states seems intense. i'm bringing any of them to an end. martin it's, it's very interesting is that when you look at the obituaries and even before he died, obviously, i mean they had 50 years stuck about his legacy as a well. i was in power, a mass murderer, a gross, a violator of international human rights laws, etc, etc. madeline albright, when asked about iraqi children, you know, she said it was something worth the, you know, but they accepted. i mean, but my point is, you can, you can say a lot of things about henry kissinger, but, you know, a, he didn't take the job because he was a st. okay. he was a, a very talented and geopolitical thinker. now we can disagree with some of the things that he did, but to put him in mass murder category like that without and being standing alone. come on, go ahead, mark us. yeah, i think i think it was quite hold on the other to keep necessary. did the growling so good? i mean,

i can't think of any states from them since the end of the 2nd level. that still helps the importance on the credos on the, on the, on the gravitas that he had. i'm used to visiting all sorts of the world leaders. you know that in the last time it's in martin. he worked very hard at it. okay. i mean, it is what it, it was interesting things that he called debated the, the midst of about himself. no, but better than any one else. go ahead be okay. let me put it in different way. can you imagine i just need the income of to isn't it ministration? is everybody in a tour in the world for decades later on? so that will lead to is, you know, quoting his opinion, you know, he was an extraordinary car to, he's hated because of the was because of a number of, um, uh, interventions some which were carried out more directly hands on others web by america just stood by and gave them the link michigan's yeah, yeah. like a strong useful bangladesh. you know?

oh, he's team or you know, so we're living in different times and not only will see in the numerous cars so incredibly car was about to it was also an intellect which was something that makes some pretty badly needs. it's oh, my free time. time out all the time out. i'm sorry you, you hit a red line and the door to the yard. well, now one of the things well, and i feel very adamant about this. so much of the focus on henry kissinger for the success is the george mentioned. it's given the kissinger never given to nixon, and that's on purpose. george. now, in the question, i think peter, you and i have discussed this many times before. it's um, it's a completely a dis, almost exercise that was practice during the next 10 years because much of the media and the tests nicks always had it. and when they saw all these uh diplomatic accomplishments,

they were not able to credit mix simple them. so they have to cultivate the made, but it was kissinger, those brilean, german jewish professor who was have all these fantastic ideas. and in a mix of those, just simple wow, you know, do you, you go ahead and do what you want henrich, but it was simply, it wasn't true. and you can see from the, the transcripts of the conversation, we've all been publish it, which is next. and that who is the guiding force of a foreign policy? kissinger was a man who implemented the was a nixon who came up with the idea of uh, the opening to china. it was nixon who actually sold to bring the war to an end by trying to get the soviet union to influence um, uh, north vietnam to be diesel nickelodeon policy objectives. but simply the comedian, the, and all the way up to now of never a given the next to the quarter a. so either way, in the midst of kissinger is a kind of a, you know,

the other side of the point was they could continue disparagement of, uh, a mix up was i think one of the, one of the clever as the most boss, like the presidents or maybe and us history. yeah. because martin almost all the histories of written the nixon, arrow written by liberals. so what would you expect? go ahead martin. all right, well i've done correct to j. i n s. um i, i was believed that some kissinger was a, i'm in a normal state, charismatic current to my point i was trying to make before you cut me off. that was the little knowledge, apologies. i just haven't had to be speaking as joy, as george pointed out. it's just something that we have talked about so many times . so i apologize. gotta give back the floor to you or i'm talking about characters . that was my point to character. so you know how, how many characters can you, can you think of it a lot us 506070 is, you know, what pops up at that dramatist, that kissinger hobby was able to quote, gender. so what i would need is, until i part of it to you,

but it will do so this i wasn't aware that it was nixon who was behind the very small moves in the seventy's to, to bring china in from the cold. and to, to sideline russia, but he, he also did a huge so and he was one of these great leaders, great statesman, the boot. that was a great believer in the other. jenny folks never change their mind because in 2019 he advised trump to do exactly this. the same thing was to get close to russia to a met china. but i think um, i think the point is that we haven't had anybody like him, and that's why he's so hated and loved this way. so i polemic so controversial. i don't think he's ever really going to ever get over the legacy the reputation of the carpet bombing for years in cambodia with late estimates for vary between 80400000 tests and also the, the impact the result of that which was to actually you know, simple, it's a, can i originally from the photos i, i guess most supporters and regionally. i think i think that was one of his

greatest blunders possibly ever. and um, you know, i think that's, that's, that's, that's how he's, he's written his legacy. but, you know, moving towards forwarding to today, you know, um, i can't help feeling that we really badly need somebody, highly articulate a really raised a shop with an intellect in the white house. now, as a result of some of these huge um, instructional problems that america and the west has brought upon itself, you know, ukraine and as well for example. and because of, you know, what i wonder if um, if, if, if somebody like kissinger, what about the edge would have had the, the, the impact on this decision making to cut off? what button come pull of? i think the contrast isn't the old days and the days of kissinger where america was extremely bold. it was the super about. it had to cut out, you know, america was judge by very much what it did. in fact, it was today, you know, where we're living in a completely different well it in a, in

a monkey by the world. way. americans no longer the suit that we tend to judge america by what it doesn't do if i'm moving. and that's what it says, and if the contrast is, you know, today we have an american president who can only cool for us, he's fraud and gaza. and that's really only can do. and you know, and hope to the rest of our listeners and, and he's, but of course that's not the case until and george, it is. i think it's a remarkable leadership in the west right now is it's, it's an outcome of an id ology. the reproduces itself, i mean, you know, anthony blinking is no accident and he is representative of the professional managerial class. but there are no nothings there just accredited george. yes, i think so. um. there's also other aspect of it. i think that, um, in the case of um, the mix and kissinger was a world in which the united states have to accommodate itself to

a serious rival power. and that tends to focus american minds. yeah. and they have to move towards um, making peace because they the, the, the possibility of the destruction and american defeat was a, it was something that was real palpable. um, we get a, what has happened since the human to pull a moment just the victory of the, the a business the united states. interpretation of the cold? well, we want, well the of the, the top dog. no one can arrive of us as a think, and i said you can do whatever it wants and that's why so there's, there's no measure. there's no check on anything that the united states. as i said, i can send you the dispute policies of destruction, destruction because them hate. this is a, is this k of we're going to just dump everything on somebody else on does not have to pay for it. you know, we do libya. okay, well we have with real good. i said, okay, well we got

a mess there. they are not our problem that the europeans deal with the war in the scenario. get it. no, no problem. let me look here at the 2020 years in afghanistan, not the exact it's when he is, i mean, people we had talked about vietnam, but i mean, the united states was enough to understand the longer of any, was a in pain in vietnam in mc, just come from the moment of john, lyndon johnson's escalation might be a 65. it's basically a d is and i've got, as i was 20, is iraq unless it's just billing there. and then when was it doing? it's just basically preventing any other power emerging on the desktop or do i say i have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the legacy of henry kissinger. stay with archie the

the tax just to warn you, but some of the of for the semester class. and like i said last will probably that's something i've been in the school just to read it in the polls and walk them through my own way. this to 11 by 6 football shy away only conflict of interest to students pursuing issue you want me to you pretty much lose

the the the the welcome act across the dock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing the legacy of henry kissinger. the

let's go back to martin america has already brought up the subject in, in the, the, what's going on right now is we speak of thinking about the legacy of henry kissinger. and let me the, the shuttle diplomacy that he conducted. and it, during the night after the $197073.00 war, it's very interesting. you have people like blinking the want to repeat it. and henry kissinger pulled something up, blinking never will cause no one takes them seriously. doesn't take the administration seriously, much to the detriment of the reputation of the united states, but no one else go can make the claim. and i think maybe it's open debate, but it was under um kissinger's tenure, a secretary of state where the united states started. the tilt no longer is some kind of a mediator. but on the, on the became a israel's international lawyer. and that is a trend, obviously that has continued much to the detriment of palestinians. and in dallas, of the westbank band,

the reputation of the united states. and actually the security of israel. you of the, i think you can make the argument a lot of that. but then that the significant trend started under giving you a it pre dates, kissinger and the relationship with israel, but the intensity of it and it has remained to the present thoughts. so i suppose, i mean, the idea of that particular time in that particular juncture was that we need israel more vanessa. you know, israel needs to be our partner in the middle east. what is that? we say we're in the cold, that was during the cold war. yeah. essentially that mixed up with us pledge of this. what do you, what do we get out of this special relationship with as well? and he said is, well, we didn't know no, really, that much. i mean, is it the reason why we have that relationship is, is re largely because of a hold of course, which is an extraordinary thing to say. i wonder if, if um, if, if, because it was in the room when you said that, you know, but, but i think we were living in different types and, um, we, we needed the,

we don't have that america doesn't have that cloud. and even though the edge anymore to, to the left rich, that it was hard when jury and because it just does not make the point full of that . you know, in the, in the old days of kissinger, america foreign policy, did it actually impact it? and now we're living in a period of american for long term policy being very much something of a narrative narrative which isn't really taking that seriously. and the, you know, the consequences is the way very confused about what our role is now in the west. and what we should be doing around the world. interestingly, you talked about, i've got a, some country very close to my heart. you know, when america pulled out, i think a general as ask isn't just about what went wrong. and you said, look, simply this, you know, we, we had no real clear idea, but what we're trying to achieve in this kind of stuff, you know, and i think um, but the, that, that was quite to a person to and pointed moment, you know, for a lot of people to, to, to, to, to heat the point that probably the west shouldn't be meddling in things. it doesn't understand him. do we really understand the complexities of the middle east

on what the israelis are trying to do and is rep? probably not. you know, but a n a is altima and i actually was interesting because by contrast, america did have a very clear policy in the it is policy, there is already obviously it was to make sure that not one country and the region ever followed suit and became an example like kind of what the name was trying to do to, to be a no telling us what was the most common estate. it was just opposed to me. you know that there was a paranoia by kissinger nixon and others are that times that, you know, the countries has done up to us and just say, we don't need to trade. we don't need a need to audiology just leave us alone. that was enough to spot extrude her a reaction of paranoid, which really led to them of it and i'm more it was all about you know, stumping out this one example is one country that stood up to have it, but it was also within the context of the rivalry with the soviet union and, and, and that was, it was one of the main drivers. george, um, you know, again, you know, you,

you can take the henry kissinger stamp on the middle least i think it gets indelible. and, you know, i, you know, i don't know what he said in the last years of his life, about american foreign policy, visa be israel, but just the, it was martin is mentioned. i mean, what does the us get out of it? because in many ways, i mean if you live with henry kissinger, wrote many books, he wrote a book called diplomacy, which i'm a very sharp critic of case in germany ways. but it's an absolutely brilliant book . it's a premier for geo politics. and but you know, he wasn't always a geo political thinker as he was a neo con, that we would say probably today. thoughts on that? i think so. yeah. i think if, if one thinks about the um, the middle east and you know, that was clearly a rivalry within the, the next to the ministration between the, the state department led by uh,

william rogers and then, and henry kissinger and the state department still maintains the um, what more traditional at that time us approach to them at least, which was even handedness. um the arabs, uh, friends. it was, i mean the united states had been involved in the arab world since the 19th and went to damascus for goodness st. exactly mixed and went to damascus and they just didn't really have that be a good guess. it was much more pro is right. and you're absolutely right. i mean, you did begin to see that the, the role of the united states, us to act as a, kind of a diplomatic, a representative of the united states. but that was the, the pressure of the soviet union. that was a fear um, within the next administration, that if this goes on, this conflict goes on, then the soviet union will get a beach in the, in the middle to use the arrows. is it going to turn to, to the soviet union? the say, hey, you know, we, we need your help, you know,

with the arrow. so we're going to deal with this problem is, right? so there was a pressure on washington to bring these conflicts to an end. and that's why there's, this pressure is now gone. i mean, the motors just don't care and i think this is really the problem with these before ever was because there is just don't care. there isn't a sufficient pressure on the only united states to do anything to bring these conflicts done in. so if you imagine what's going on now, israel and gaza, you know, the buys and people say, well, you really have to be careful about the civilian casualties. we, i just, just, you know, we're not, we're, we're, we're not happy with you killing so many children. and that's it, nothing else the more i think you've had this been the in taking place in the mix and kissinger you or are they able to do much better. there was much tougher pressure on this. uh, this ronald reagan kind of, um, a called the bacon instead knock it off. it was there and left it on there. knock

it off. exact happened. exactly. advise me to do it by the absolutely do it any, those are the, this has been the glib case. was it the reason presidents, you know, they could easily bring it over here, easily pressure as well, to uh, to come to a conference table and work something out smelling insoluble problem. but they've been reluctant to do it. you know, martin it's, it's really interesting when we think about kissinger's relationship with, with it israel and us relationship with israel. he was no scientist though. okay. and i think it's, it's, they have to couch it in terms of what, what george just said. i mean, he thought about it as a j, a political again, but, and, and the problem to solve these would be the cold war. he put all those pieces together . that's what made him quite brilliant in his own way. but ever since then, you know, we, we had that we have that history of from 1973 to the present with israel. but it's much more in a couch than design just a terminology in paradigm. because in just certainly wasn't the,

it wasn't particularly sympathetic to jews and the soviet union, a body put together a number of piece plans for the israelis and the palestinians. so we shouldn't forget that. but again, i come up some other point different times, very, very different times. you know, when you look at what you get, scandal, the nice and cushioned just paranoia, of one individual journal, this public opinion. and then i think was probably even more important than it is now. i mean, it was certainly a different attitude towards press international media both next and kissinger took the press very, very seriously. and i wonder if that would be the same case if nixon was in a position today. no blix kissinger's idea. i think you wrote it, one of his books are part of which one, but he's, i'm paraphrasing, he said the foreign policy is very much something about how you have to have the power behind the policies. i think he was basically saying the online fist and the on gloves is really what dr. american foreign policy to. so it's not the case today now, you know,

and i need the contrast to the is the role of acetic statement that i'm a made in 2015, you know, backing away from the red lines, threat to syria and against us. do you know where, you know, we have this thing which probably kissinger finds actually repulsive, cold soft policy, you know, which is a sort of you for this and for we no longer in pounds, you know, we're not going to show us so different, very, very different days for kissing joe, but just pick up george's point, i think probably kissinger nick, some would have been more sense. some said sensible. i'm thinking of the french was story, since people are sensitive to a, the outcry from people via the press. then this, today's administration, i mean and, and i think it would have acted on it. so i think under kissinger we may well, lot of cease for coming to the seats for enforced. and that's the key will influence every se, every time we had something like this, an american president would demand

a cease fire that this is not happened now. rapidly run out of time. judge what we um. we have to give kissinger credit for, for his out of office years, he had the kissinger associates became a very wealthy man. he remained very relevant and germane in international politics . tony blair is imitated him, everybody else. h. kissinger created a paradigm. and every one of many, many people fall into this footsteps. george? absolutely. it is a power that i mean he did at the moment his using office ended. he moved to new york, set himself up in a lavish um apartment and began cultivating very wealthy people. he also cultivated a couple sources, socialites, you know, the, the, the dinner party is that, and this became the, you know, only a very important ingredient on his life. and he flatted the flap of all kinds of lead is wherever it is. you know, he was, he was what he liked to be flattered too. and he loved to be for the 2. and that's why he continued to get invitations. you know,

the people that listen to all his great great states. well, i mean that's where he put his energies into and i think he abused it because i think he could have used these. he is much more productive if he could have been a good advice of 2 presidents as a, in a, instead, he wanted to go on being invited to the wi fi right now. i get the question. i have a question to both of you right before we end here. but at the end of the day, george, for as he was sick, he wanted to be. he wanted to represent the quintessential consensus. yes or no? absolutely that's. that's what we was martin. here's the thing, so i'll give you. jos will change that ended really quick. so you've got 20 to go to a good, a different studies that can cause the thing that goes through his personality. he never, never wanted to be outside of the main street of a conventional opinion. okay, gentleman, that's all the time we have a want to think on george and martin. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are to see you next time. remember, cross stuck rules,

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the only thing is the strongest case that it will have. it is still wishing me something as well since i just sent it the new so good, which is the is to remove it and see i guess it sucks. so what i get, i used to be honest, can you just the

the because we felt strongly and stubborn in northern gone. so we're also doing so now in the southern pods, it will be with no less strength and that's up to reducing much of moving a golfer to ruins. israel says it will now focus it's attention on the south tops, despite having previously told palestinians to heads best for the safety we have from those are latest for me and bottles which they come up even go south and sort of because a lot of these are all the main highway with 6 or just for the cities in the script has also been on the