are always high, but the engine, given that joe was you're talking about crap and well as the saudis, of course you've got to, you know, it was way to really sort of order it out after you showed it on i think with a group of people that are some enemy groups were destroyed with ability, but we kept floating the nation some drones and dropping them afresh. units the by preventing the counselor at tech russell, literally the whole, really didn't do this in the off them up, the trenches and dugouts were piled with the bodies of ukrainian nationalist and pharma assemblies. the bottle went on for 72 hours doing good,

but it's the day you feel drained and don't, especially when the fighting ends during combat. you feel shopping aware, but when it ends, you feel like you haven't slept for days. the lease battle is being mirrored across the front lines. russian forces have begun that wind to push and key of which promised to take crime me a bite with them. now funds its own lines shaking and buckling. were i guess the of the, from the guns region it, will it just about a half or something in the evening here on monday in most good. this is all to you internationally. it's turning into a busy one right here at auntie. i called it got more on time on me is here at the desk in about half an hour's time with a whole bunch of guest correspondence lined up to go a lot to talk about this evening. i hope you can join motor out in the very, very near future the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the hello, i'm a miller chan. you're tuned into modus operandi. earlier in 2023 us president joe biden surprised and disappointed. many people around the world when he authorized sending kids pentagon stockpiles of cluster munitions, these munitions have been banned by most of the world, including most u. s. allies. yet nobody took diplomatic measures to block the move. today will explain what these ordinances are and why the us should join. it's natal partners in the band. all right,

let's get into the m. o. the nearly 20 years ago, a comprehensive treaty was developed to banned the use of cluster munitions. these versatile weapons have a long and ugly history around the world, especially their extensive deployment in laos, cambodia, and vietnam during the senior's secret war. so just what our cluster munitions, while they're basically a larger looking bomb that houses hundreds of smaller bonds. these munitions can be fired from the ground by all sorts of artillery systems dropped by aircraft, and the disburse mid air spreading. these so called bomblets or bomb beast indiscriminately, those small or mini bombs are supposed to explode upon impact,

sending shrapnel in every direction. the idea is to cause maximum carnage against the enemy. but as you'll learn today, that is not the reality of what happens to the bomb these historical records. tell us that us cluster munitions have over a one percent fail rate. they don't explode as intended. and so what happens is they remain dormant in the ground for sometimes decades as an louse for an unsuspecting civilian to accidentally step on kick or whatever, maybe a farmer telling their land. most of the civilians, however, are children who think their toys because they look like a tennis ball. a little tennis ball sized or, or you may think a one percent fail rate is actually a good number. but you'd be wrong when you consider the 10s of thousands of the bond lists that are actually released since the 2008 convention on cluster

munitions. more than a 100 countries have signed the treaty, including france, germany, another one's the u. k. and 20 other nato allies and partners such as japan and australia. but the us, russia and ukraine have not signed on. in fact, for the u. s. d o, the policy issued in november of 2017 permits. the use of all the millions of cluster munitions stocks, quote, until sufficient quantities of enhanced and more reliable versions are developed and filled it. and the pentagon policy also pays the way for the us acquisition of cluster munitions from foreign sources to replenish its stock. according to human rights watch, meaning the us has to get rid of its old stockpiles somehow. so they can make way for the acquisition of new munitions. so to talk more about the ravages of cluster

munitions will bring in a guest who has had on the ground firsthand experience with the sab results of the use of these weapons. for sarah collette della is the ceo of legacies of war and chair person for the us campaign to ban landlines and cluster munitions coalition. you can follow her on twitter or x as they are calling it these days at sarah collab della. thank you so much for joining us, sarah. so there's a lot of talk lately about cluster munitions because of the war and ukraine after the us decided to send, keep of some of the kinds of guns old stock piles. and i think it's fair to speculate that some of these old stockpiles came from decades ago when the c, i a range these down onto a louse during the sixties and seventies. talk to us about the kind of devastation

cluster munitions cause and is there any impact to these types of arms as they age? meaning could perhaps older munitions have a higher failure rate to detonate, then say newer ones? yeah, i know. i think so much behind me on it and tires. i think this issue. so 1st i just want to say that as someone who s version witness my father, i, dr. suicide glover, i work on numerous when victims, chrysler worries us. so, and then my accident, i know version to horrors that these types of indiscriminate that'd be what is can have on a civilian population. so, you know, was a little bit about the munitions that in question, right? so to by the administration announce on july something that it was transferring munition to you, my and those munitions are now being used by the,

in military and the ones that questions are from the 1980s. so these are the m 864 in there, at least 30 years old. and now you're absolutely right. you know, once these munitions are sitting in our saw pile, they do age and there's where i share. but i think the, the plan that we should be focusing on is the impact of civilians during and after the conflict. not that way, right. i think the dod ray is just right here and i because we know that the latest march report on documentation was just released this week and states that these weapons impact 90 percent of civilians and 60 percent of those are billions by children that are under the age of 18. right.

and like you, i'm allow heritage, my own family were victims of us, cluster munitions, my paternal grandfather and my dad. then 7 year old little brother died as a result of the secret war in the 1960. so for me, this is deeply personal as it probably is for you. but this isn't a problem that is left to history. is it? i mean it's, it's still a persistent problem. it allows today. yeah, no 1st, no, thank you for sharing your own personal story. yes, i do feel that there you see more and more people share this as part of just really have dream, the history learn from it as well as you try. and to me, this is a 2 day problem. so today allows every single problems, all 17 problems and the capital city. again, john has some form of contamination, right?

and these are from bonds are draw exactly 50 years ago. i was just in laos and you know, 2 weeks before i flew out in august, there was a traffic accident that occur insight where we pods. and this involves 3 children, all under the age of 10. so to 10 year old and a 5 year old over on just phone letter and i was just laying around and it doesn't need it. and it showed all 3 children and injured one, you know, where any stations dot receive funding from the united states government to try to address this, were able to just call the expense the medical expense for the injured. and then the funeral and basi by traditional religious down be for the 3 children whose last parish. so dot is just in july that happens. right. and

today, the national regulatory authority, the governing body of the year during miles estimates that at least $20000.00 people. so cavities of these unexplored awareness these 5 decades or still are in need of chair and that you know, that doesn't tell you that this is a problem today. i don't know what was right like we have countless d. my meetings are the myers that are working to clear these organs, but still to just j less than 10 percent of the area miles has been cleared. and there's still this great need for funding to new orleans to provide a minus education for victims. like the ones i shared with you in science, which currently does not have any minus education curriculum or at the mining teen . um,

not to mention the victims of the war like after the war as well as unfortunately, unless we these ordinance i the future as well. yeah. now it's my understanding and correct me if i'm wrong, but roughly 40 percent of laos is currently completely uninhabitable due to the mass proliferation of u. x. those all over the country. talk to us about those cleaning efforts and allows. yeah. so you know, fortunately, manila is not the way it is 30 percent, that's the estimation. right. so one 3rd of else i still have contamination and this is, you know, i swore or games on there's a least a 183 different types of ordinance that's littering. the beautiful landscape laws and you know, as an american very, how do you guys stage the leading slender glo, lee on imagine the my so since 1993,

the united states invested at least one last i 1000000000 dollars for clearance for the countries. and that includes loss. so due to, you know, legacy the war. our supporters are partners, obviously. athletics this year and miles is receiving $25000000.00 for the close efforts. because this has been on my reservation. how the united states. and this is a lot of money, but i'll give you just a quick perspective in the us time. $16000000.00 a day in today's dollars to the bottom loss or 9 straight years. so 25000000 in my opinion, is a drop in the box. we need to download or i guess my office to be cleared with yours, mine's lifetime. right? yeah, and this is a problem that we know how to resolve and we have play the myers best them ready to

do this class effort. but they need more funding. they need to stay yeah. id be able to expand the team and provide more my collab to children showing that the dangers of these are slow there. right. yeah. and you know, like the last or that i have to kind of has to go to hollins. this is the part of the house and you know, to give you an idea of how to use the my work is i visited this um b h i, or imagine inclusion change in the normal products. and this is a project that's funded by the netherlands. so thank you. now that was and i hope they'll continue to find the h i team doing this work, but the entire loss is very mountainous, right? so there's a lot show. the train is very difficult to access my team and i had to bring a plane to some. yeah. and then take a 3

a half hour bought the car ride to get to the d mining site. and then i slipped out to the area where you want me to clean a job, but it's really difficult because in order to clear the land, you have to remove sort of meditation, right? so meaning unclear and yet so you can even get in there. and then maybe you're taking all the necessary precautions yourself as well as all the days before doing destination. i doubt requires them to announce that the villagers coordinate with the people living in the area as well as their livestock to make it safe for clearance and destination. can happen, so this is, you know, um there's a lot of process and it requires like immense dedication to training as well as

just like the protective that's hard to ensure that you might in the lives are saved as well as all the people that live in that area right, especially to your point about $45000000.00 for this one year. if we look at the broader pentagon budget of $845000000000.00 this past year alone, that is certainly less than a drop in the bucket. i say please sit tight, we're going to come back with you for some more. don't go anywhere, sarah. coming up next, the us off and credits itself with being a champion of human rights. but it's track record would suggest otherwise. we'll discuss it when we return with sarah. pull up the last sit tight. m o will be right back. the. it went to central foreign policy. did india. so one of the greatest mass murderers in history, kissinger might have been bolt and much more because death was not untimely, but his legacy still haunts us. in many ways,

he initiated some of the worst aspects of american foreign policy. the, the, the tax just for the funeral war and the possibility of products and must have less than a concept that the last will probably that's something i've been in the school just to read it in the polls in a couple of them in my own way. this tell them by some football.

shy, right. only conflict of interest to you. yes, you want me to you pretty much, don't you this is this the welcome back to the m. o i manila chance, we're continuing our conversation about the cluster munitions with our guest. sarah collab, deluxe sarah is uh, the ceo of legacies of war. thank you for staying with us, sarah. so in spring of 2023, you published an op ed in usa today, calling on president bye to not to sent cluster munitions to ukraine, but also for the us to join the 100 plus countries in a multi lateral treaty to banned the use of them. the convention on cluster

munitions entered into force back on august 10th of 2010. so as of now the us has not signed onto the convention. do you think part of that is because the convention calls for member countries to clear contaminated areas within 10 years. and because it requires members to destroy all of it, stock within 8 years, they'll add to that the requirement to provide assistance to victims like a victims compensation fund. i mean, is that all perhaps too tall in order for the us, especially as it pertains to allows a so great question. now i think the best person to answer that would be present by in congress. what i can say now is, you know, as the chair of the u. s. t o n z, or you can change that landline cost municipal lesson. we are greatly concerned with the dimensions that the united states have transferred to ukraine.

and we have consistently, you know, my polish and colleagues, 9 administration for washes, heresy for clarity, as long as you like. stop sending lots of munitions. now the united states have at least one point. 7000000 class shows this file and rockets in arsenal, point to human rights watch. definitely pro lead to 500000000. so munitions, you know, that's a lot of issues or stop hire. right. and these are bands, my $120.00 countries for a reason one there is going to that, right? they cannot how the difference between or small tile, they don't have any mechanism that will solve the straw. so that means the cheese or countries like miles claudia and get now we're talking 5 decades,

we're still cleaning the deadly weapons. and she both has to be our, our actual line. um, now are us government and will say that we are leaning towards, you know, doing everything that you mentioned in cost munitions when we require a signature forey. um, you know, the latest is your 2017 i, there's a mandate that requires congress to not be able to transfer any documentation that have a better way of overlap percent. the hi, this is violated. i send a new nations which is on government has a that has a den. i don't wait a to my 35 percent. now this is, this is already above the lower side, right? but still be we cannot trust the board because any time the use of munition and a bad feel,

always have consistently shown that is different from rates that are specific reports. right, right. and when you look at what's like the congressional service review reports on the governments phone, on how he report all these nations, the rates are different. i. i'm in the case of the 2022 rational service you or is the manufacturer stated that the the, the rate is between let to buy sense, but do you mind uh, do you mind if experts with these uh, the rate uh between 10 to 30 percent now. ringback uh or we have already witness. i like the war miles, familiarity and um, so that nation rate, those daily rate those dod rates, excuse me. so those that rate are anywhere between 10 to hours of 30 percent as we

seen in los. yeah. and you have actually just recently returned state side after a visit to louse this summer. i have seen a lot of new videos on social media. recently of developments across laos, like the new high speed rail built by a chinese investment that goes from beyond john. the capital city all the way, uh, north into united province china. there's a large, upscale shopping mall that looks like any mile you'd find in america built by a malaysian investment group. the russians are building out new infrastructure at the bench on airport. do you think this speaks to one like the spirit of to allow people to move past it's designation as the most heavily bombed country on the planet. but as a double edge sword, do you fear that seeing so many new positive developments there, that people might forget the ravages of cluster munitions that still linger

especially all over the countryside? yeah, um you know, your feel like there's a lot of the developments in laos and national geographic. i just actually the top 4 nations bridge. my time 3 last, you know, i don't want you are not there to the god. just because last is the most help me boss and she is history that there is and it's a few a right. there's so many beautiful places for torres. what, who, you know, in my home town, i guess i'll be in charge and nor have already been cleared and a safe for taurus losses. gary not to chair. did a twice me or off the on to be the chair boss unit twice before. so there's a lot of people know being miles and miles is holding for investments in the, for the partnership with the rest of the world. so i'm very proud of that and i'm

proud of you know, the government. all right, hiding just because regardless of the task, the people, all these are a single floor and the people well deserve to be on the same time. feel as it's more prosperous neighbors. but to answer your question, the are number one priority. manila is asking me issue, meaning to remove the munition to make it safe with people. and the elements of this beautiful country are they actually adopted. in addition to the 17 sustainable development goals that hundreds of companies of adopted all the world. you prioritizing lake power the equity generate quality loss added a s d g 18. so that's last week for my for now. so, you know, in addition to the united states, funding,

clarence offers other countries like the u. k, norway, a turkey of funding clearance offers in laos de la p are also investors own money and resources to do this work as well. yeah. let's, let's hope that all the shiny, new shopping malls, people don't forget that this is still happening. like you said, every day people are still dying of this and allows. so last question here. you've spoken to the survivors. many of them from the secret war survivors of the cluster, munitions, you x, those bomb, is there a lot of names for this stuff? right? what is your take away from their stories? if you had to summarize them all, what is it that you want? the international viewers watching this to think about this overall conversation. yeah, um, you know, i think it's simple. i, this is a problem that has a solution. we know that in the words you save more lives and make the last one

usable, is to remove and destroy these women's rights and more funding needs to be a power priority. meaning, you know, like, let's make sure that your words are happening all the world, new nations happening, and it's not just, you know, the latest report shows that you mar, there's also as new rejuvenation, syria, as new damnation. right? this is a little problem with these 30 countries impacted by these deputy is governance part of the nation. so we know that there's a solution. we just need to reach our highest as part of funding that is consistently being allocated to support countries like while they're trying to move forward from this. and i hope that in addition to, you know, the funding support from united states, other countries also do not forget about legacy warners and places like laws. claudia. yeah, i guess and you know, the list is going on and you know,

just really the media needs all the pay attention to the cheapest one. because while the warehouse has already lived in over 50 years, people are still being named and injured today. you know, and i think that what changes now was it is the more dollars will be invested in this. yeah, absolutely, that is the hope, a appreciate your time and the work that you and your group do. circle up the lot is the ceo of legacies of war and chair, person for the us campaign, the band land mines and cluster munitions coalition. you can follow her on twitter if you still call it that, like me and sarah loved all out. thank you so much for your time, sarah, based. all right, that is going to do it for this episode. i've noticed operandi the show that digs deep into foreign policy and current affairs. i'm your host manila. chad. thank you so much for tuning in. we'll see you again next time to figure out the m o

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the the number 410. c 7, god, the name me, the city of call unit is boomed by as well as the idea of pages on the, from the same scale, diffraction and complex area as it did in its initial invasion. in the north of the region. the photo has to be full, strongly and sorry, and no other guns are. we are also doing so now in the southern vaults, it will be no less strengthened. that's the idea of analysis that the comes to slide possible will be open because of it is the head fell as the previous car, the was turned into a was