local populations, i can see a conflict because us imperialism specialize in creating proxy conflicts because they using the israel right now to pursue the interest in the middle east because they've used the ukraine to pursue. and so i, russian, geo political interest. so of course we can't put anything by the us, they will do everything to weaponized. guy needs nationality against the interest of both the man as well as in diana in south america. let us and this news with some disturbing news from 9 j, because officials, the se, in the country's military accidentally dropped the bomb on a village injury. and i haven't seen terrorism operation killing at least 37 years now. wanting disturbing images are ahead of the local government of the northwest and couldn't do the state said the ordinance was dropped from a will plain. joining a routine mission. the deputy governor has express condolences the victims families

rescue workers are looking for any potential survivors in the area. local joe, this timothy is sent us this triple in the states ministry of internal affairs in a statement. monday confirmed the attack on emergency meeting with heads of security and religious leaders. deputy governor had dfcs bol by the rabbit, presided over the security meeting body set. my julian military was on a routine mason against towers when the military judge mistakenly bombs local residence in but soon the village of to do and estates. the victims were observing the model celebrations around 9 pm sunday when the incident occurred. local media reports say at least 30 people died and dozens fathers were injured by local resident states,

the number to be more and that the villages were mistaken for bandits. my great in from neighboring sound for our state so could do in a states state of 40 said officials are still carrying out search and rescue. appraised once again, the affected areas and have sense. condolences to the effect that families might syria is a war with many times and kid not for ransom guarantee. in the conscious northern region between estates is one of the heck spots for kidnapping guarantee. mandatory strides have often led to civilian casualties and debates by human rights about my german military operations. in general, read a military strikes cute, 39 people, and injured 6 others in a small settlement in last our states near the capital. my dear an air for said the giant appraisal was in response to suspected terrorist activities. the latest

incident has spots, fear and panic with some people fleeing their homes for fear of farming. timothy, easy, a r c, a which i might syria. well that run some of this news i'll put in a valley is on costs top of next and we'll be back to the top of them. the hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle

. the quintessential foreign policy genius or one of the greatest mass murderers in history, kissinger might have been both and much more. his death was not untimely, but his legacy still hans us, in many ways he initiated some of the worst aspects of american foreign policy. the to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george w l e in budapest is a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals and, and their cash. we have martin j e as an award winning journalist. and commentator or a gentleman crosstalk rules and effect, that means you can jump me anytime you want. and i always appreciated. all right, george, that started out with you. in budapest, as i said in my interaction, it wasn't on timely. he did make it to 100 years. i think it is last major trip was last year to beijing. so he was, he had a vote, a very of filled life to the very,

very end. but he also has a legacy. it's an understatement to say it's mixed, but i would contend that it's not much different than a lot of other secretaries of state sense, but we'll get into that. go ahead. george. it was no question. it's a m a mix legacy. however, i think if one thinks about kissinger's, he is in power, as opposed to he is sick of fine. take obsequious he is out of the bathroom. most of his life was really out of power. draw, bullying, and a carrying favors. little well the 50 years. but during his, he is in pro, um, either those we years of diplomatic accomplishments. some of those we years of major arms control treaties signed is in which the united states managed to extricate itself from the war in vietnam. and the look for awhile as if the united

states would not be able to ever accomplish that. um, but it was with the use of a, a healthy productive relationship with the soviet union, a game which seemed unlikely in the decades before, during the 19 fifties and early 96 this. and then of course it, you know, disappeared. you know, within a few years of the end of the mix, some kissinger. yes. so when you contrast that with the accomplishments of his successes, i think it specs up quite favorably. um, you know, it's hard to think of the last couple of decades. what diplomatic accomplishments the united states has a cheese? no, i mean i know counseling of any major treat is of the united states. assign any major diplomatic initiatives that the come for a, i mean what the recent years of being characterized by the forever was,

was that just go on and on forever. and no one can actually even explain what they're about with the iraq, syria, libya, and he's the, you know, you can just go through the list. what are they about and know the president will separate? just a seems intense. i'm bringing any of them to an end. martin, it's, it's very interesting is that when you look at the obituaries and even before he died, obviously, i mean, they had 50 years talk about his legacy as a while. i was in power a mass murderer, a gross, a violator of international human rights laws, etc. etc, madeline albright, when asked about iraqi children, you know, they, she said it was something worse, but you know, but they accepted. i mean, but my point is, you can, you can say a lot of things about henry kissinger. but, you know, a, he didn't take the job because he was a st. okay. he was a, a very talented and geo political thinker. now we can disagree with some of the

things that he did, but to put him in mass murder category like that without and being standing alone. come on, go ahead, mark. yeah, i think i might just click on that and i don't think he necessary did the growling so could. i mean, i can't think of any states. one of them is since the end of the 2nd level that still held the importance on the credos on the, on the, on the gravitas 3 had, i'm used to visiting all sorts of a world leaders. you know, in the last time it's in martin, he worked pretty hard at it. okay. i mean, it is what it, it was interesting things that he called debated the the midst of about himself. no, but better than any one else. go ahead be okay. let me put it in different way. can you imagine just me billing? come i'm of to, isn't it ministration is over in a tour in the world for decades later on. so that will lead to is, you know, quoting his opinion, you know, he was extraordinary. carter and he's hated because of the was because of

a number of um, uh, interventions some which were carried out more directly. hands on others where by america just stood by and gave them building the wink michigan. yeah. yeah. like a strong use for bangladesh. you know, oh he's team or you know, so we're living in different times and not only will see an enormous car so incredibly car was about to. he was also an intellect which was something that makes a pretty badly needs. it's oh, my free time. time at what time out. i'm sorry you, you hit a red line and the door to the doorbell. now, one of the things, and i feel very adamant about this. so much of the focus on henry kissinger for the success is the george mentioned. it's given the kissinger never given to nixon and that's on purpose. george. now in the question, i think peter, you and i have discussed this many times before. it's um, it's a completely a dis,

almost exercise that was practice during the next 10 years because much of the media, the tests nicks always had it. and when they saw all these uh, diplomatic accomplishments, they were not able to credit mix simple them. so they had to cultivate the made, but it was kissinger, those brilean, german jewish professor who was have all these fantastic ideas. and in a mix of those, just simple wow, you know, do you, you go ahead and do what you want henrich, but it was simply, it wasn't true. and you can see from the, the transcripts of the conversation, we've all been publish it, which is next. and that who is the guiding force of the foreign policy? kissinger was a man who implements that. there was a mix of who came up with the idea of uh, the opening to china. it was nixon who actually sold to bring the war to an end by trying to get the soviet union to influence. um, uh, north vietnam. maybe these old nickelodeon uh,

policy objectives. but since the comedian then all the way up to now of never a given the next to the quarter a. so either way, in the midst of kissinger is a kind of a, you know, the other side of the point was they could continue disparagement of a mix. a was, i think one of the, one of the clever as the most fascinated presidents are maybe in us history. yeah. because martin, almost all the histories of written out the nixon, arrow written by liberals. so what would you expect go ahead martin. all right, well i've done correct to j. i n s. um i, i was believed that some kissinger was a i'm in a normal state. curtis mounted current to my point i was trying to make before you company all set the was the little knowledge, apologies. i just haven't had as joy as george pointed out. it's just something that we have talked about so many times. so i apologize,

i've gotta give back the floor to you. or i'm talking about characters. that was my point character. so you know how, how many characters can you, can you think of it a lot is 506070? is he the pounds thought of that dramatist, that kissinger hobby was able to quote generous and well newton's talks i perfectly about it will do so this i wasn't aware that it was nixon who was behind the very spot moves in the seventy's to, to bring china in from the cold and to, to sideline russia. but he, he also did a huge so he was one of these great leaders, great statesman, the boot. that was a great believer in the other. jenny falls never change their mind because in 2019 you advise trump to do exactly. that is the same thing to us to get close to russia to a met china. but i think um, i think the point is that we haven't had anybody like him, and that's why he's so hated and loving this way. so polemic so controversial. i don't think he's ever really gonna ever get over the legacy. the reputation of the

carpet bombing for years and come by we do have with late estimates for vary between 80400000 tests and also the, the impact the result of that, which is to actually you know, simple. it's a come arrows you can sort of, i guess most supporters and regionally, i think, i think that was one of his greatest blunders possibly ever. and um, you know, i think that's, that's, that's, that's how he's, he's written his legacy. but, you know, moving towards forwarding to today, you know, um, i can't help feeling that we really badly need somebody, highly articulate. i'm really raised to shop with an intellect in the white house. now, as a result of some of these huge um, instructional problems that america and the west has brought upon itself, you know, ukraine and as well for example. and because of, you know, i wonder if um, if, if, if somebody like kissinger, what about the edge would have had the, the, the impact on this decision making to cut off? what button come put off?

i think the contrast isn't the old days and the days of kissinger where america was extremely bold. it was the sleep about it had the cloud. you know, america was judge by very much what it did. in fact, it was today, you know, where we're living in a completely different without, in a, in a monkey, bought a world way. americans no longer the suit that we tend to judge america by what it doesn't do. if i'm mobile, that's what it says. and if the contrast is, you know, today we have an american president who can only pull for seats for our garza. and that's really only can do and you know, and hope to the rest of our listeners and, and he's, but of course that's not the case. it will and george, it is. i think it's a remarkable leadership in the west right now is it's a, it's an outcome of an id ology. the reproduces itself, i mean, you know, and to me blinking is no accident and he is representative of the professional managerial class. there are no nothings there, just accredited george. yes,

i think so. um. there's also other aspect of it. i think that, um, in the case of um, the mix and kissinger level, the world in which the united states have to accommodate itself to a serious rival power. and that tends to focus american minds. yep. and they have to move towards um, making peace because they, the, the, the possibility of the disruption and american defeat was that it was something that was really comfortable. and we're going to what has happened since the human to pull a moment, just the victory of the, the a business, the united states. interpretation of the cold? well, we want, well, the of the top dog. no one can arrive of us as a thing. and i said you can do whatever it wants and that's why so there's, there's no measure. there's no check on anything that the united states, as i said,

it can just sent you to pursue policies of destruction, destruction because them hate. this is a, this is k of we're going to just dump everything on somebody else on does not have to pay for it. you know, we do libya. okay, well, we have with real good enough age. okay, well we go to mess the state, not our problem. that the europeans deal with the war in, uh, syria. okay, no, no problem. let me like your, of the money 20 years in afghanistan. not the exact, it's when he is, i mean people are we in talk about vietnam, but i mean, the united states was enough. get us on the longer then he was a, in a, in the, in vietnam, in. and she just got from the moment of john, lyndon johnson's escalation might be a 65. it's basically a is. and i've got, as i was 20, is a rock, it honestly just building era. and then when was the doing is just basically preventing any other power emerging on the desktop or do i say i have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the legacy of henry kissinger. stay with archie.

the the welcome x across top were all things are considered on peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing the legacy of henry kissinger. the let's go back to martin america has already brought up the subject in, in the, the, what's going on right now is we speak of thinking about the legacy of henry

kissinger. and let me the, the shuttle diplomacy that he conducted a, a, during the night after the 1970 the 73 war. it's very interesting. you have people like blinking the want to repeat it. and henry kissinger pulled something up, blinking never will cause no one takes them seriously. doesn't take the administration seriously much to the detriment to the reputation of the united states, but no one else go can make the claim. and i think maybe it's open debate, but it was under the kitchen just tenure, a secretary of state where the united states started, the tilt no longer is some kind of a mediator. but on the, on the became a israel's international lawyer. and that is a trend, obviously that has continued much to the detriment of palestinians. and in dallas, of the westbank man, the reputation of the united states. and actually the security of israel. you're a, i think you can make the argument

a lot of that. but then that the significant trend started under kissinger, a, it pre dates, kissinger and the relationship with israel, but the intensity of it and it has remained to the present thoughts. so i suppose, i mean, the idea of that particular time in that particular juncture was that we need israel more vanessa. you know, israel needs to be taught in the, in the middle east. what was that was there in the cold that was during the cold war? yeah, essentially mixed up with us pledge of this. what do you, what do we get of this special relationship with as well? and he said is, well, we didn't know no, really, that much. i mean, is it the reason why we have that relationship is, is right, largely because of a whole across which is an extraordinary thing to say, i wonder if, if um, if, if it, cuz it was in the room when you said that either but, but i think we were living at different times and um we, we the, the, we don't have that the america doesn't have that cloud and even all the edge anymore to, to the leverage that it once had when, during cause and just as and i made the point full of that, you know, in the,

in the old days of kissinger, america foreign policy, did it actually impact it? and now we're living in a period of american photo storm policy being very much something called a narrative or narrative which isn't really taking that seriously. and the, you know, the consequences is the, we are confused about what our role is now in the west and what we should be doing around the world. interestingly, you talked about, i've got a son country, very close to my heart. you know, when america pulled out, i think a general just ask, isn't just about what went wrong and you said look to simply this, you know, we, we had no real clear idea, but what we're trying to achieve and that's kind of stuff. you know. and i think um, but the that that was quite to a person and, and poignant moment. you know, for a lot of people to, to, to, to, to heat the point that probably the west shouldn't be meddling in things. it doesn't understand. and do we really understand the complexities of the middle east on what these riley's are trying to do and is rep? probably not. you know, but a, and it is argument actually was interesting because by contrast the america did

have a very clear policy and it is policy very, very obviously it was to make sure that no one country in the region ever followed suit and became an example like kind of what the name was trying to do to, to be an autonomous. it wasn't so much at coming to stay. they would just autonomy, you know, that there was a paranoia by kissinger. nixon and others are that times that, you know, the countries has done up to us and just say we don't need to trade. we don't need a need to audiology. just leave us alone. that was enough to spot extraordinary reaction apparently, which really led to them of it and i'm more it was all about you know, stumping out this one example is one country that stood up to have it. but it was also within the context of the rivalry with the soviet union and, and, and the address of it was one of the main drivers, george, um, you know, again, you know, you, you can take me henry kissinger stamp on the middle least. i think it gets indelible and you know, i, you know,

i don't know what he said in the last years of his life about american foreign policy, visa be israel, but just the, it was martin is mentioned. i mean, what does the us get out of it? because in many ways, i mean if you live with henry kissinger, wrote many books, he wrote a book called diplomacy, which i'm a very sharp critic of case in germany ways. but it's an absolutely brilliant book . it's a premier for geo politics. and but you know, he wasn't always a geo political thinker as he was a neo con, that we would say probably today. thoughts on that? i think so. yeah. i think if, if one thinks about the, um, the middle east, and you know, there was clearly a rivalry within the uh, the nixon administration between the, the state department led by uh, william rogers and then, and henry kissinger and the state department still maintains the, um,

what more traditional at that time, us approach to them at least, which was even handedness. um the arabs, uh, friends. it was, i mean the united states have been involved in the arab world since. and i think said when to damascus, for goodness, say exactly mix i went to damascus and i guess it just didn't really have, that'd be a good doesn't it was much more pro his right. and you're absolutely right. i mean, he did begin to see that the, the role of the united states, us to act as a kind of a, a diplomatic, a representative of the united states. but that was the pressure of the soviet union. there was a fear within the next administration that if this goes on, if this conflict goes on, then the soviet union will get a beach in the, in the middle to use the arrows of a time to, to the soviet union. the say, hey, you know, we, we need your help, you know, with the arrow. so we're going to deal with this problem vision. so there was a pressure on washington to bring these conflicts to an end. and that's why there's,

this pressure is now gone. i mean, emerge just don't care. and i think this is really the problem with these before eval was because they make us just don't care. there isn't a sufficient pressure on the only united states to do anything to bring these conflicts to it in. so if you imagine what's going on now, israel and gaza, you know, the by whom people say, well, you really have to be careful about the civilian casualties. we, i just this, you know, when we're not happy, would you killing so many children? and that's it. but nothing else. the only one i, i think you've had this been the in taken place in the next 9 kissinger here. so i know what to do much better. there was much tougher pressure on this uh, this ronald reagan kind of, um, called um, begging and said knock it off. is there a limit on your knock it off? exact happened. exactly. advise you to do it by the absolutely do it. and he doesn't do it. this has been the glue case, was the reason of presidents, you know,

they could easily bring his way over here, easily pressure as well to, to come to a conference stable and work something out, smell an insoluble problem. but they've been reluctant to do it. you know, martin it's, it's really interesting when we think about the kissinger's relationship with, with it is real and us relationship with israel. it was no scientist though. okay. and i think it's, it's, they have to couch it in terms of what, what george just said. i mean, he thought about it as a g, a political again, but, and the problem to solve these, it'd be the cold war. he put all those pieces together. that's what made him quite brilliant in his own way. but ever since then, you know, we, we had that we have that history of from 1973 for the present with israel. but it's much more in a couch than design just um terminology and paradigm because it certainly wasn't the, it wasn't particularly sympathetic to jews and the soviet union, a body put together

a number of piece plans for the israelis and palestinians. so we shouldn't forget that. but again, i come up some of the point different times, very, very different times. you know, when you look at what you get, scandal nice and cushioned, just paranoia, of one individual general, this public opinion then, i think was probably even more important than it is now. i mean, it was certainly a different attitude towards press international media and both nick, some uncles and to took the press very, very seriously. i wonder if that would be the same case if nixon was in position today? no legs. i guess i'm just, i do think you're ready and one of his books are part of which one, but he's, i'm paraphrasing you said that your foreign policy is very much something about how you have to have the power behind the policies. and i think he was basically saying the online fist and the on gloves is really what dr. american foreign policy to. so it's not the case today now, you know, and i need the contrast to that is the role of acetic statement that i'm a made in 2015, you know, backing away from the red lines,

threat to syria and against us. do you know where, you know, we have this thing which probably kissinger finds actually repulsive, cold soft policy, you know, which is a sort of euphemism for we no longer in pal. no, no, no, according to show us. so different, very, very different days for kissing joe. but just pick up joe, just point, i think probably, kissinger nick, some would have been more sensitive said sensible. i'm thinking of the french with story since people are sensitive to a, the outcry from people via the press, then this, today's administration, i mean, and, and i think they would have acted on it. so i think under kissinger we may well, lot of cease for commented seats for enforced, and that's the key will influence every se, every time we had something like this, an american president would demand a ceasefire that this is not happened now rapidly run out of time george, but we, we, um, we have to give kissinger credit for, for his out of office years. he had the kissinger associates became

a very wealthy man. he remained very relevant in germane international politics. tony blair is imitated him, everybody else and kissinger created a paradigm. and every one of many, many people falling into his footsteps. george? absolutely. it is a power that, i mean, he did it the moments he's using office ended. he moved to new york, set himself up in a lavish um apartment and began cultivating a very wealthy people. they also cultivated a close, also socialized, see the, the, the didn't about the said. and this became the, you know, only a very important ingredients of his life. and he flatted the flap of all kinds of leaders. wherever it is, you know, he was, he was all he liked to be flattered to any loved to be for the 2. and that's why he continued to get invitations. you know, the people that listen to all is great, great states. well, i mean that's where he put his energies into and i think he abused it because i

think he could have used these. he is much more productively. he could have been a good advice of 2 presidents as a, in the instead, he wanted to go on being invited to the wi fi right now. i have a question. i have a question to both of you right before we end here. but at the end of the day, george, for as he was sick, he wanted to be he wanted to represent the quintessential consensus. yes or no? absolutely. that's. that's what we was martin. yes, i think so. it just will change that ended really quick. so you got 20 is the good shepherd study that i can probably cuz this is another thing that goes through his personality. he never, never wanted to be outside of the main street of a conventional opinion. a. okay, gentleman, that's all the time we have a want to think on george and martin. i want to thank our viewers for watching us. here are the see you next time. remember, across the rules, the

ambulances and civilian car does not stop for the last hour onto know, coming from home over con eunice, southern gaza. and they read the city of han units is bottom line as well as the idea of it is a lease of the same scale of destruction on that area. as it is initially evasion in lenovo the region as we felt strongly and solely in northern guns that we're also doing so now in the southern pods, it will be no less strengthened that we are the fanaticism, the coastal wipe off road will be open because of it is the head spouse as the previous bar though has to into rules are a red cross.