they still seem to be good or bad ways to be or to develop the regardless of a nation's history of culture or collective thomas was such as z o for uniformity. can we ever put an end to our in or, or out or conflict of to discuss that i'm now enjoying, but richard sacrilege, professor emeritus of russian and european politics at the university of count for 1st and 2nd grade to talk to your again, thank you very much for your time. i mention psychology in my introduction because i do think that geo politics would benefit from a better knowledge of how collective psych, your works. and you also deal with some of those issues in directly in your new book. the last piece and how the west failed to prevent a new cold war. let's start with the title. was the advert. a lasting piece to be lost on the the west just fail to prevent a new confrontation or did it actively?

how bringing it about? it wasn't the last thing piece. definitely not. but i think that at the end of the 198 is there was an opportunity for different types of piece of what i call a positive piece order one, which she refuses to accept the inevitable logic of conflict. clearly it's going to be difficult as, and that differences in the level of international politics. yet there was a unique moment in which we could move to a different type of international affairs. this was certainly the idea underlying the new political thinking and peers to our kind the soviet union. but there are plenty of people in the west as well, who supported that? i did folks on po, the us, investigator, jack black look at the time. you know very much so and still defends it and so many others. what would underlying the whole book and i'll come back to the key point in a minute. but underlying it is the, the vision that humanity is had you could you talk about psychology? is this endless utopian striving?

socialism used to have it to others that we can get a better world. it's possible that we don't have to divert so many of your sources into militarism into pub and wolf are independent. still having for dominance of to the end of the cold. we could have gone back to the funding principles of the united nations, of the child to system, which we living on digitize the cold war, even though we call it the war. it was also appear as when uh, you know, various caps tried to manage their differences in the very 10 years and yet peaceful way during the cold war really need to be prevented as much as perhaps redefined and prolonged. yeah, the, the, what i cool, the 1st cold haul and nobody called now the 1st cold war was indeed about how to manage conflict and in conditions of nuclear, we got really on the get an apocalypse hanging over our heads. so the idea of was

that it was money, but it will to without conflict of costs because the conflict was forced out in this, in what we used to call the 3rd well in vietnam, clear africa and so many other conflicts, asia. but we lost that ability to manage conflict at the end of the pass code war. and of course, today we've ended up in a fall more dangerous 2nd cold war. but just to, i'm a stress, we've got the idea of this international system. the charter system is important because it, it's still to this day off as an opportunity for the small positive piece. uh, yeah, the indian spoke about it. the chinese talked about it. the russians talk about it in the west. there's plenty of people who would like to say this positive piece, but you know, to achieve it, we must fight foot and understand what it's what, wow, okay, well, let's try to understand that because if we step outside this russian west intentions for a moment and look at the mean, a white are global political processes. you argue that there has been sort of a switch in perception or switching hierarchy. what used to be

a part of the global system, unimportant part of the global system by which i'm in the collective west came to believe that it was inside the entire system that it was not only could, but shouldn't be setting rules and writing prescriptions for everybody. else what's behind this conceptual turnaround? yes. so what i'll do is, is that there's what i call the political west. did engage and ended with the tension was there from the beginning to begin to use up if you like, the newer homes and rules of the and international law itself, you're presented by the charter system, the united nations. this use of patients. uh, it is, you know, it was driven by, you know, important normative, i guess, united delivered many public goods. they so called collective west. but of course, it was not the integrity of the world. and it simply could not up to 1989. it, you know, the soviet union collapsed, china was still going to play a marginal to the international politics. and so the collective was to put to west,

believe that its vision of the world, its institutions and its gnomes would become universal. ok to put things in that package, but there was of a button for that bad thing and match as j a political dominance which clearly many states would be refused to accept the well professor sec, what, what strikes me the most about this concept and the switch from what you call, democratic internationalism, imbedded with the within the un charter, this idea that each nation deals with its own problems by itself, but to the old corporate. uh, to uh, the idea of democratic international is. and what to me looks more like democratic extinction is because this is an idea of the uh, not only the own nation should develop in one prescribed way, but that those nations that don't comply or for some reason simply cannot physically cannot reproduce the western system. that, that own political systems have no right to exist. this is a, you know,

this is not only, and i'm a historical id. i think this idea of goals against science. if it goes against the entire human experience and ultimately is simply not realistic. you cannot compress the diversity of human problems or collective experiences to just one paradigm. and i cannot even understand how something like that could pop into people's mind. and you know, because saw like, become so prominent because it will not try to do it even only or can because it's impossible, but to try it on the entire world. that seems to be well of very big condition. we should distinguish on the one hand, this democratic internationalism leads to, we call a lot and not just make democratize. and that is way democracy is used as an instrument . the actual substantive notion of it are systems uh, in good shape is based on the rule of law, unpopular accountability representation and so on. is, is it perhaps it is

a universal in the sense that it's embedded in united, united nations charter. but what's happened is, is that these idea is of, in a clear, created by particular political system res, then proceeds to try to impose its particular vision of how the world should be good. will have a society should be managed to the gas, and you're absolutely glad civilizational diversity is precisely the big issue, which is now coming, but very much on to the political stage. now, one thing valuable, less than that my country of russia has taken from its a dramatic experience of the soviet collapse, is that you should not really try to take more than you you can carry. and i think for many russians that including for the russian leadership, what's, what's hard to understand is why would the west you wouldn't want to take on such a humongous task when it's only resources, not only material resources,

but some with aren't your intellectual resources are running so since i do applying to a voice is in united states and in the food cool west of to the end, the cold. well, who made exactly that point? that the uh, but unfortunately the coldwell, on the end of it had empowered what we call the neo cons and they are conservative movement. a company as well. by much more empowered loophole international. this to police at liberty with a government equal, we talked about earlier become a universal model of governance. so these 2 forces effectively merged in a level of intervention isn't, which has university fight. we've seen it in the invasion of iraq. we're seeing it in libya. we've seen that i've done this done and, and other cases. so you absolutely got that, that loop you will have given a, as many in the west without you has been a foolish and wasteful enterprise. instead of the building our domestic societies. we have to i to impose based mobile externally,

which of course states simply with most accept which has led to this conflict and led to the 2nd coldwell. and i think right now the western political class choose us to frame it as a struggle between assorted tiring has been democracy. and i think this central variable uh, sort of in visit checks the position is not only power but post and see the ability or disability it to implement your vision of governance and your vision of good live in, in real life. i wanted to what extent do you think the struggle with the soul of the retail around is, is um, prompted by the west own ability or inability to deliver what it stands for to its own people. yes, this is, this argument does apply to a lot of states including reduction. in fact, it's the diversionary argument, you know, failure to deal with domestic issues, leads you to adventure and some a build up. suddenly as far as the west is concerned, we've got a clearly,

i've been certainly arguing this for many years that we should really get our own house in order before telling other people how to manage their own houses. this doesn't mean to say that we don't have will as individuals in our society is every right to demand a basis of support for those principles of construct a system of the united nations. these are not principles which uh, you know, trying to use them a congressional and doing whatever visa, genuinely, a sense of at the end of the 2nd world war, such a catastrophic disaster. gosh, i last at least 27000000 people. the idea of never again, both for genocide, civic mex killings and everything. we really must get back to that vision number. unfortunately, the younger generation has forgotten that those principles and we have to work for that. everybody has to accept and work within that framework. a professor sat quite a while uh russia surely is strongly supports vision and charts are. i think there is also a clear difference in how various nations are interpreting those principles. and

what matters more for various societies. for example, the chinese, most recent, they have been putting a lot of stress on the collective ride through development, which allows the individual to leave uh, you know, he's or her own food potential, but also in connection with with the society. now that in the west tends to be far more individualistic and stressing the rights of individuals more than the rise of the collectives. but again, if we look at the more than the psychological in our new or logical research rate, we can see that human potential is better develop not in isolation of individual lives, but rather in connection with the community in a being usually engaged with the community. so many of those issues, i think they are at the core of the current disagreements. and yet somehow we all accept only the western experience, all these dynamic between the individual and the collective. do you think there's and your role for, um, you know, who brought a dialogue on what it means, what the,

you know, you're in charge are and what the declaration of human rights actually mean in this, in, in this life, in this time and for various societies absolutely, i think that's it. the fundamental question is that we do need that dialogue on what an agenda full piece of development could mean to date within the framework of tried to internationalism. so it's not just that societies cannot survive on those, but they need a genuine sense of internationalism based not on somebody imposing the way that this internationally should work, but emerging from your own death, distinctive destiny. there's a close applied to the collective internally that some societies have a more collective us division of public goods. the west, of course, has undermined very strong and the particular the anglo saxon world. but not just don't, is in the liberal the investigation, the holding out of the state has been catastrophic. we've seen that and now the

industrialization and the hasn't been for generation know, a genuine attempt to say, how can we make basis artist more equal, more dynamic, more successful, instead of which lots of parts of the midwest old industrial votes and so on are declining. and continue in the social problems on norma's really, that's exactly it. we should have a you know, focus on dealing with our own problems. but in partnership with others in the sense that that's why we do need this positive piece. not just this endless negative piece. the absence of will even that will not succeed in doing well. professor sec, what in a partnership with each other, we need to take a very short break right now. but i hope to be back to do this discussion in a few minutes. agent, the

the it's amazing what can happen over the course of a few months, not long ago buying was in static, that the us with back to frame as long as it takes. now it is as long as we can. what happened? no doubt the regime and to have this taken down the

welcome back to was a part of this richard sack for a professor emeritus of russian and european politics at the university of con. professors suck. well, i don't know if it's true universally, but certainly in russia and i would claim to some extent in the ukraine. the notion of western style democracy looks at like 30, maybe 20 years ago was very tightly associated with the living standards and the lifestyle perks that came with material success. and this is something that i think the so called the survey terran governments are increasingly better able to provide for the people where where's i would claim and i think you're partially supported my arguments, western governments instead of losing that their track of providing what it needs to be providing some social benefits for the people. i wonder if without this

lifestyle and there are the notion of western and democracy would be just as attractive, not only to people outside of the west, but also to western populations. well, democracy comes, they know, shapes and sizes in the west as well. i'm just looking from the mental peer can suppose of course, that it's hot. i'm yes, whether they who can deliver the goods. of course, the big test was the cobit emergency. and monday, now ok, you, that'd be all targeted and states. ultimately, we're not much more successful. obviously, of united states was deeply unsuccessful. but in between, they were all sorts of measures. it's not, there's no question of east and west to this is what, why is there anything i do feel that we do need to have the style of to which you referred to earlier, which i think is extremely important on what does the destination, what do these chart to principals, and what does the universal declaration of human rights means today? what does it mean today? look, just to use it as a demo, go go j a political purposes. but you're gonna go back to that finding. i did,

you know, you, you, in a know the discussion talked about the chinese vision of what they could contribute to the universal declaration of human rights. that was a fantastic debate at that time. we need a similar debate instead of which one person telling me as a how they should live. that's just a total that there the somebody sunday's debate is already happening all around the world. for example, the chinese has just have just hosted a major conference on that very declaration because it just marked the 75th anniversary of and being signed. and they talked extensively about uh, security, collective development and civilizational dialogue, as something that provides really provides for, for, for human rights. and i was particularly struck by this idea of civilizational dialogue as a sort of a safeguard for the excess of any particular national motto. so for example, they would see that as a sort of a new version of checks and balances and keeping on making sure that you know,

we developed but also take care of the plan to take care of the income gap, etc. i would claim that the russia is also trying to, to develop those ties with many of the african countries of the african son as in summer. i remember putting talk that extensively about offering not imposing but offering russian governing technologies to african countries. and we're not talking about political systems here. we are talking about mechanical algorithmic, cold ways of providing services to the population. so to some extent, this is already happening in many countries and participating in just seems to me that it's the western part of humanity, all a western political class that are sort of locked in the high tower where they're debasing or how they can continue being the gods for the rest of the world. yeah. the intent we talked about the international system. you and based a system. but yeah, in international politics, the state system has no charge. there's some $200.00 states in the world. the

colonization is nothing tiny over, but basically it's, it's in the past and these states now i'm a church and they demand a voice in the conduct of international politics. and this is a paradigm shift and a co changed, which obviously china is taking a lead for example, and it's a whole stack of documents have come out with this in place. so digit security initiative, all those other initiatives. i very much well commit because this is your site as part of a global debate, and mr. brad can no longer be restricted to the so called jude state. so the g 7 know the advanced the political west, the political west. everyone has to find a, it's new, nice in the new configuration of international politics. unfortunately, some people are still looking to austin, pre eminence pos, dominance, both intellectual and very political and military. and that's know what i forwards . now, why don't the thing that i found very interesting in your writing is that you make

this distinction between the cultural west or civilizational west, with its rhodes back in degree culture and roman law and the political west as an entity that took shape during the cold war which you described as militaristic expansionist and her medic. and perhaps i would add impermeable to objections of others and impermeable to solve correction. that's the, the biggest, the difficult testing for of it for the western populations. and this is actually what my question is about. i think that's kind of framing what understandably cause resentment from other countries. but what about the resentment from the inside? do you, what's the relationship between the power and the people within the west inducing more generally, people are sort of satisfied with what they're getting from that it leads, you know, they're not at all satisfied in this is explains in part their emotions so. so co populism both of the left and the guide at the they, they, there's major to,

i say it's, it's not just migration issues, it's actually developmental issues. and what's the vision for the future? do these societies have and it's a total of bankruptcy for him looking to the future. and the fact that, you know, the political west is still locked in a vision of international politics, which is their good way outdated. and this is why i say that we've been in the west now many west. so you know, i'm from new west. i wanted to see i would just say a prospect. i wanted to shift away from its mess site and it vision also has a negative, a type of politicized international politics. think about more development, thinking about the public good and delivery of services and so on and off. you know, for all of our societies to be incorporated into, to have cross spears like looking a chair of the future into the future goal defense stuck into the militarism of that of the cold war. because if i have one more 2nd done, this is to say that you say that the, the, on other words,

the menu west is with deep culture west, which provides the saucers who are the renewal of the west. and there's also the civilizational west, which is, you know, both the good sides of it are nice sounds and like 2 men thinking, but also the downside, imperialism, colonialism exploitation. and so, which really beginning to come to terms with our own civilizational westdale is culture was in public reflected. so the collective west is go to the west is going to, okay, good, major challenges now. and in the sense of this debate, which we're having now, i think they contribute to, you know, maybe getting out of it. well, one obstacle to that is working in the kremlin. i'm in the russian president vladimir put in on you quite often. a professor sack one, make a point that the west essentially forced or made legitimate food an into an avenue where or she could have been a partner for the west. let's focus on that last hypothetical off. how

fortune would have been a partner to the west. alternatively, how could the west have benefited from a more mutual, more reciprocal relationship with russia under pretence this goes back precisely to fee. when i say the last piece it wasn't, if i had stablished unfortunately, but the potential and the at at that moment the end of the 1st coldwell, we had 2 visions. if you're paying security on offer the you're upholding fee i day, which was put forwards by the united states deliberately, to counter gorbachev's comedy or paying home on. basically the long term goal is to idea self upon your pin and continental unity. i believe that ultimately the 2 could have been compatible and this is what pushing wanted to do when he 1st came to power. and they would have become, you know, do i have to free choice and indivisibility of security? i'm not to much incompatible. if you can see the question in the context, english, people can choose what would actually achieve in the visibility of the carrier to

that's a tragically, was unfortunately not allowed because the political west assume it's do you a political, a normative dominance was so overwhelming versus view didn't matter which and of course to i to solve, asking to join a tax. but of course, if we got to joins nato, we think that the appointment, if everyone is in nato the know it needs to be in they to. and that was the packet ducks in a dilemma faced and casually bit by bit putting, put time going more alienated from the early times, 2002, the point at which we, we end up and of course as it became age. and then he was demonized, and diplomacy then died in his early years. as you mentioned in many articles, he was quite amenable to western influence to even invest in guidance. i think he was putting diligence in trying to find that middle ground. why addressing uh, western politicians and the west in general, which is usually very good at sporting very, you know,

with business like ideas. why didn't they, why didn't they tried to capitalize on that? some western european politicians did understand that, of course they themselves became demonized with them about as go and they were talking about it was actually back in his own way at a certain point. and this whole tendency was months ago. and that's why i think this concept of the political west is useful because it shows that it is a type of who might take the same time. you're both outside influences. it was so you know, bound up with its own identity and it's 7 to treatments. and its own an expansion good logic that it couldn't get it to take into account security. you know, they'd be putting security dilemma on the continent. that's why i've always been arguing that we do need a pen continental your pin on the said to your parents, security questions, and then to may have been statement. if the website america can be a good partner, but it's most of a good. if you like, lead to on the line system, which is low. i've lived it's purpose. of course now they say it's got

a new purpose, which is a good general one to contain rush as it did the soviet union with us just taking us back to square one. and we did the new logic to get out of it as a 2nd. while i noticed the platinum and put you to use a lot of noodle terms in his features, a words like bustles or the silver. and he often appeals to dignity, to honor to valour. and maybe it's just me, but i'm hearing a lot of stylistic references to king arthur's legends and the quest for the holy grail. and i wonder if you see these historic struggles between russian great britain or russia and the west more broadly. not only as a competition for control or power or access to resources, but also involving something larger perhaps something, not a physical i guess. another thing there's something major physical there. i do think that, you know, there's a little just, there is a political theology,

little and political psychology. indeed, the ways that the west clings together the political west, which is very my view, anachronistic. f o not k. it formed maybe because the political form of a net line took a line system was important against nazi germany and may be in the early against the soviet union such and it's got no place today. and we should really move beyond that sort of thinking. of course, that's punch in united states to argue the site. so, so i say that in a sense see of quite a lot within the country is we can't simply say that emotion is the political west, isn't how much. and i suppose, but the offices we've been in the collective and logic, historical west, which are fighting against it. we used to have peace movements. we used to have to have union movements, which would be quite active. and in questioning this military guys, in a way that international products has militarized. so your guys that we do need a new agenda, which can, you know, take us back. maybe we do need to go back to the starting point and that is not,

not 1999, but 1945. that moment of destiny for the world as well. uh on this uh rather helpful note for sure. so sec, why we have to move in there. thank you very much for being with us today. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope this sir. again, was a part of the i think it will have chevy and it shows the patient unix, but then you put the stopper won't even go in and look when we have

a couple of those. appreciate it. but if you're doing your dose, but then you would just give them a long shot, the beloved selling. so got you for me just so that way you know you hear them. steve is just a little bit slow. so i know control the sensor only is a visual little thing and i do have to make sure that people come down. yeah, i'm literally so frustrated with as much. it's gonna get to play the show you a different level may assist you more when you do it. i'm good insurance and which the technology you can throwing up at the let's just sponsor it's just me just go out. i don't like for us to go where you need the course to just go in and put in the see a good thing is done with this or fix it on this was was self employed. so sort of all the,

the with the stuff, big images, the had the read precedence as a 3 people were killed and 6, others injured. and then he's really dead side of the type stripe on the refugee camp in the central guys that we started with. people that are leaving, you know, without these pacing supports, it became showed that, i mean that at a true inside the is, he's on the phone, was probably like a wildfire, a rag cross, the official towels r t, the thomas td ends in gather, facing kenneth to that make a folly infectious diseases due to a vash stoppage of medical supplies. this is the devastation intel also towards the region that was considered the most beautiful in northern and gaza face toward extermination, plunder and unprecedented destruction.