a christmas market, of course, a cost stream contest as well. a lot of cool the love us here in the russian capital right now. no more pictures from that story. continue on line right now. it's not. you don't come for the meantime. thank you for sharing your time with us on this sunday, we are back with the welcome to wells of part one of the basic premises of more than psychology is that

12 patents of development are universal. each psyche each individual will have to come up with his or her own solutions to the problems both by life. that's a natural i'm yes. when it comes to the collective level, there still seems to be good or bad ways to be or to develop regardless of a nation's history of culture or collective thomas. with such as video for uniformity. can we ever put an end to our in or, or out or conflicts to discuss that i'm now enjoying by richard sac law, professor emeritus of russian and european politics at the university of count for 1st and 2nd grade to talk to your again, thank you very much for your time. i mention psychology in my introduction because i do think that geo politics would benefit from a better knowledge of how collective psych, your works. and you also deal with some of those issues in directly in your new book. the last piece and how the west failed to prevent

a new cold war. let's start with the title. was there ever a lasting peace to be lost on the the west just fail to prevent a new confrontation or did it actively? how bringing it about? it wasn't the lasting page, definitely not. but i think that at the end of the 198 is there was an opportunity for different types of piece of what i call a positive piece order one, which she refuses to accept the inevitable logic of conflict. clearly it's going to be difficult as and that differences in the level of international politics. yet there was a unique moment in which we could move to a different type of international affairs. this was certainly the idea underlying the new political thinking and peers to ica and the soviet union. but there were plenty of people in the west as well, who supported that i did, for example, the us ambassador jack black. look at the time, you know very much,

so it's 2 different ends it and so many others. what would underlying the whole book and i'll come back to the key point in a minute. but underlying it is the division that you might have to has had you, could you talk about psychology as this and less utopian driving socialism used to have right to others that we can get a better world. it's possible that we don't have to divert so many resources into militarism into permanent and wolf are independent. still having for dominance of to the end of the cold. we could have gone back to the funding principles of the united nations, of the child to system which we living under today. the cold war, even though we call it the war. it was also appear as when uh, you know, various caps tried to manage their differences in the very tenuous and yet peaceful way during the cold war really needed to be prevented as much as perhaps re defined and prolonged. yeah, the, the,

what i cool the 1st cold war and nobody calls now the 1st cold walks was indeed about how to manage conflict and in conditions of nuclear, we got really on the get an apocalypse hanging over our heads. so the idea of was that it was many, but it was without conflict of costs because the conflict was forced out in this, in what we used to call the 3rd well in vietnam, clear africa and so many other conflicts, asia. but we lost that ability to manage conflict at the end of the pass code. well, and of course, today we've ended up in a fall more dangerous 2nd cold war. but just to, i'm a stress, we've got the idea of this international system. the charter system is important because it, it's still to this day off as an opportunity for the small positive piece. uh, yeah, the indian spoke about it of a chinese talk about it. the russians talk about it in the west. there's plenty of people who would like to say this positive piece, but you know, to achieve it, we must fight for it and understand what it's what well, let, let's try to understand that because if we step outside this russian western

tensions for a moment and look at the mean a white or global political process. as you argue that there has been a sort of a switch in perception or switching hierarchy. what used to be a part of the global system, unimportant part of the global system by which i'm in the collective west came to believe that it was inside the entire system. and that it was not only could but should be setting rules and writing prescriptions for everybody else. what's behind this conceptual turnaround? yes. so what i'll do is, is that there's what i call the political west. did engage and ended with the tension was there from the beginning to begin to use. so if you like the newer homes and tools of the and international law itself, you're presented by the charter system, the united nations. this use. so patient is, you know, it was driven by, you know, important normative, i guess, you know,

to live in many public goods. they circles collective west, but of course, it was not the entire 2 of the world. and it's simply could not up to 1989. it, you know, the soviet union collapsed. china was still going to, to play marginal to the international politics. and so the collective west of good to west believe that its vision of the world, its institutions and its gnomes, would become universal. so can't have good things in that package, but there was of a button for that bad thing and match as j a political dominance which clearly many states would be refused to accept. well, professor check what, what strikes me the most about this concept and this switch from what you call democratic internationalism. imbedded with the within the un charter, this idea that each nation deals with its own problems by itself. but the old corporate uh to uh, the idea of democratic international is. and what to me looks more like democratic extinction is because this is an idea that not only the own nation should develop

in one prescribed way, but that those nations that don't comply or for some reason simply cannot physically cannot reproduce the western system that, that own political systems have no right to exist. this is a, you know, this is not only, and i'm a historical id, i think this idea of goals against science. if it goes against the entire human experience and ultimately is simply not realistic, you cannot compress the diversity of human problems or collective experiences to just one paradigm. and i cannot even understand how something like that could pop into people's mind. and, you know, because saw like, become so prominent because it will try to do it even only. okay, because it's impossible, but to try it on the entire world. that seems to be well of very big condition. we should distinguish, on the one hand, this democratic internationalism leads to,

we call a lot and not just make democratize. and that is where democracy is used as an instrument. the actual substantive notion of it are systems. uh, and usually it was based on the rule of law, unpopular accountability representation and so on. is, is it perhaps it is a universal in the sense that it's embedded in united, united nations charter. but what's happened is, is that these ideas of, in a clear, created by particular political system res, then proceeds to try to impose its particular vision of how the world should be good, will have a society should be managed to progress. and you're absolutely glad civilizational diversity is precisely the big issue, which is now coming back very much on to the political stage. now, one thing is valuable, less than that my country of russia has taken from its a dramatic experience of the soviet collapse, is that you should not really try to take more than you you can carry. and i think

for many russians that including for the russian leadership, what's, what's hard to understand is why would the west you wouldn't want to take on such a humongous task when it's only resources, not only material resources, but some with our and your intellectual resources are running, so since i do, i'm trying to avoid says, in united states and in the food co west of, to the end, the cold. well, who made exactly that point? that the, but unfortunately, the cold war on the end of it had empowered what we call the neo cons, and they are conservative movement, a company as well. by much more empowered, lupo international. there's 2 police at liberty with a game and a what we talked about earlier could become a universal model of governance. so these 2 forces effectively merged in a level of intervention isn't, which has university fight with. we've seen it in the invasion of iraq. we've seen it and libya, we've seen that uh, i've done this done and, and other cases. so yeah, absolutely guys that, that liberal had given a,

as many in the west without, you has been a foolish and wasteful enterprises in the building, our domestic societies. we have to i to impose this model externally, which of course states simply with most except which is linked to this conflict and relate to the 2nd code. well, i think right now the western political class chooses to frame it as a struggle between assorted tiring has been democracy and i think this central variable uh, sort of in visit checks the position is not only power but post and see the ability or disability it to implement your vision of governance and your vision of good live in, in real life. i wonder, to what extent do you think the struggle with the so called a story to around is, is um, prompted by the west own ability or inability to deliver what it stands for to its own people. yes, this is, this argument does apply to

a lot of states including reduction. in fact, it's the diversionary argument. you know, failure to deal with domestic issues, lead you to adventure, we have some a build up. suddenly as far as the west is concerned, we've got a clearly, i've been certainly arguing this for many years that we usually barely get our own house in order before telling other people how to manage their own houses. this doesn't mean to say that we don't have will, as individuals in our society is every right to demand a basis of support for those principles of the charter system of the united nations . these are not principles which uh, you know, trying to use them a congressional and doing whatever visa, genuinely, a sense of at the end of the 2nd world war, such a catastrophic disaster. gosh, i lost at least 27000000 people. the idea of never again, both for genocides and mic mx killings and everything we really must get back to that vision number. unfortunately, the younger generation has forgotten that those principles and we have to work for

that. everybody has to accept and work within that same work. a professor sat quite a while. uh, russia surely is strongly supports vision and charts. or i think there is also a clear difference in how various nations are interpreting those principles. and what matters more for various societies. for example, the chinese, most recent, they have been putting a lot of stress on the collective ride through development, which allows the individual to leave uh, you know, he's or her own food potential, but also in connection with with the society. now that in the west tends to be far more individualistic and stressing the rights of individuals more than the rise of the collectives. but again, if we look at the more than the psychological in our new or logical research rate, we can see that human potential is better develop not in isolation of individual lives, but rather in connection with the community in a being usually engaged with the community. so many of those issues,

i think they are at the core of the current disagreements. and yet somehow we all accept only the western experience, all these dynamic between the individual and the collective. do you think there's and your room for um, you know, brought a dialogue on what it means, what the, you know, you're in charge are and what the declaration of human rights actually mean in this, in, in this life, in this time and for various societies. absolutely, i think that's it. the fundamental question is that we do need that dialog on what an agenda for piece of development could mean. today we're going to see a work of charter internationalism. so it's not just that society is, cannot survive on those, but they need a genuine sense of internationalism based not on somebody imposing the way that this internationally should work, but emerging from your own, distinctive destiny. there's of course, applied to the collective internally that some societies have a more collective us division of public goods. the west, of course,

has undermined very strong and the particular the anglo saxon the world. but not just don't is in the or liberal the investigation. the whole living out of the state has been catastrophic. we've seen that and now the industrialization and the hasn't been for generation know, a genuine attempt to say, how can we make basis artist more equal, more dynamic, more successful, instead of which lots of parts with midwest, old industrial belts and so on are declining and continue in the social problems and almost really that's exactly it. we should have a you know, focus on dealing with our own problems. but in partnership with others in the sense that that's why we do need this positive piece. not just just and this negative piece, the absence of well it even that we're not succeeded in doing well, professor stuck what in a partnership with each other, we need to take a very short break right now. but i hope to be back to do this discussion in a few minutes agent the

the, [000:00:00;00] the

the welcome back to one of the parts with richard sac for a professor emeritus of russian and european politics at the university of con. professors suck what um. i didn't know if it's true universally, but certainly in russia and i would claim to some extent in the ukraine the notion of western style democracy, let's say like 30 maybe 20 years ago was a very tightly associated with a living standards. and the lifestyle perks that came with material success. and this is something that i think the so called the survey terran governments are increasingly better able to provide for the people where where's i would blame and i think you're partially supported my arguments, western governments instead of losing that their track of providing

a what it needs to be providing some social benefits for the people. i wonder if without this lifestyle and there are the notion of western democracy, it would be just as attractive not only to people outside the west, but also to western populations. well, democracy comes, they know, shapes and sizes in the west as well. i'm just looking from the mental peer principles, of course, that it's hot. i'm, yes, uh whether they who can deliver the goods. of course, the big test was the cobit emergency. and monday, now ok, you, that'd be all targeted and states ultimately, we're not much more successful. obviously the united states was deeply unsuccessful . but in between, they were all sorts of measures. it's not even a question of east and west to this is what, why is there anything i do feel that we do need to have this dialogue to which you referred to earlier, which i think is extremely important on what does the investigation, what do these chart to principals, and what does the universal declaration of human rights means today?

what does it mean today? look, just to use it as a delegate, go geopolitical purposes, but you're going to go back to that finding. i did, you know, you and, and know the discussion. talked about the chinese vision of what they could contribute to the universal declaration of human rights. there was a fantastic debate at that time. we need a similar debate, instead of which one person telling me as a how they should live. that's just a total that there the somebody sunday's debate is already happening all around the world. for example, the chinese has just have just hosted a major conference on that very declaration because it just marked the 75th anniversary of and being fined. and they talked extensively about uh, security, collective development and civilizational dialogue, as something that provides really provides for, for, for human rights. and i was particularly struck by this idea of civilizational dialogue as a sort of

a safeguard for the excess of any particular national model. so for example, they would see that as a sort of a new version of checks and balances and keeping on making sure that you know, we developed but also take care of the plan to take care of the income gap, etc. i would claim that the russia is also trying to, to develop those ties with many of the african countries of the african son as in summer. i remember putting talk that extensively about offering not imposing but offering russian governing technologies to african countries. and we're not talking about political systems here. we are talking about mechanical, i'll go with me, cold ways of providing services to the population. so to some extent, this is already happening in many countries are participating in just seems to me that it's the western part of humanity on western political plans that are sort of locked in the high tower where they're debasing or how they can continue being the gods for the rest of the world. yeah. the intent, we talked about the international system to you and based a system. but yeah,

in international politics, the state system hasn't richard, there's some 200 states in the world. the colonize ation is nothing tiny over, but basically it's, it's in the past and these states now i'm a church and they demand a voice in the conduct of international politics. and this is a paradigm shift in epa co changed, which obviously china is taking a lead, for example, and it's a whole stack of documents have come out with this in place. so digit security initiative, all those other initiatives, i very much well commit because this is your site as part of a global debate. and mr. bragg can no longer be restricted to the so called g state . so the g 7 know the advanced, the political west, the political west. everyone has to find a, it's new, nice in the new configuration of international politics. unfortunately, some people are still looking to austin, pre eminence pos, dominance, both intellectual and very political and military. and that's know what i forwards . now,

why don't the thing that i found very interesting in your writing is that you make this distinction between the cultural west or civilizational west, with its rhodes back in degree culture and roman law and the political west as an entity that took shape during the cold war which you described as militaristic expansionist and her medic. and perhaps i would add impermeable to objections of others and impermeable to solve correction. that's the, the biggest uh, difficult testing for of it for the western populations. and this is actually what my question is about. i think that's kind of framing what understandably cause resentment from other countries. but what about the resentment from the inside? do you, what's the relationship between the power and the people within the west inducing more generally, people are sort of satisfied with what they're getting from that it leads,

i know they not have to satisfied and this is explains in part their emotions so. so co populism both of the left and the guide as they they, there's major, i say it's, it's not just migration issues, it's actually developmental issues. and what's the vision for the future? do these societies have? and it's a total of bankruptcy for him looking to the future. and the fact that, you know, the political west is still locked in a vision of international politics, which is their good way outdated. and this is why i say that we've been in the west now many west. so you know, i'm from new west. i wanted to see i would just say a prospect. i wanted to shift away from its best site and it vision also has like a negative type of politicized international politics. think about more development, thinking about the public good and delivery of services and so on and off. you know, for all of our societies to be incorporated into. yeah. plus because like looking at your, of the future into the future goal defense stuck into the middle to

a single side of the cold war. could you could have one more 2nd done. this is to say that you say that the, the, on other words, the menu west, the, is a deep culture west, which provides the saucers who are the renewal of the west. and there's also the civilizational west, which is, you know, both the good sides of it. a good nice sounds and like 2 men thinking, but also the downside, imperialism colonialism exploitation. and so which really beginning to come to terms with our own civilizational westdale is culture was in public reflected. so the collective west is going to to the west is going through. okay, good. the major challenges now, and in the sense of this debate which we're having now, i think they contribute to, you know, maybe getting out of it. well, one obstacle to that is working in the kremlin, i'm in the russian president vladimir, put in on you quite often. a professor sock one, make a point that the west essentially forced or made lodging and putting it into an avenue where or she could have been

a partner for the west. let's focus on that last hypothetical off. how would you would have been a partner to the west alternatively, how could the west have benefited from a more mutual, more reciprocal relationship with russia under pretence? this goes back precisely to see when i say the last piece. it wasn't if i had stablished unfortunately, but the potential and the at at that moment the end of the 1st coldwell, we had 2 visions. if you're paying security on offer the, you're the holding fee i day, which was put forwards by the united states deliberately, to counter gorbachev's comedy or paying home on basically long term goal is to idea self. append your pin and continental unity. i believe that ultimately the 2 could have been compatible and this is what a pushing wanted to do when he 1st came to power. and they would have become, you know, do i have to free choice and indivisibility of security?

i'm not to much incompatible. if you can see the question in the context, english people can choose what would actually achieve. and the visibility of the carrier to that's a tragically, was unfortunately not allowed because the political west assume it's do a political, a normative dominance was so overwhelming versus viewed didn't matter. which and of course to i to solve asking to join a tax. but of course, if you guys have joins nato, we submit the appointment. if everyone is in nato, the know it needs to be in a to. and that was the packet ducks in a dilemma faced and casually bit by bit putting, put time going, more alienated from the early times. 2000. add to the point at which wait, we end up and the costs as it became age. and then he was demonized, and diplomacy then died in his early years. as you mentioned in many articles, he was quite amenable to western influence to even invest in guidance. i think he was putting diligence in trying to find that middle ground wider thing. uh,

western petitions and the west in general, which is usually very good at sporting very, you know, with business like ideas. why didn't they, why didn't they try to capitalize on that? some western european publications did understand that. of course they themselves became demonized with the but let's go and they were talking about it was actually back in his own way at a certain point. and this whole tendency was much like that's why i think this concept of the political west is useful because it shows that it is a type of who might take the same time. you're both outside influences. it was so you know, bound up with its own identity and it's 7 to treatments and its own an expansion good logic that it couldn't get it to take into account security. you know, they'd be putting security dilemma on the continent. that's why i've always been arguing that we do need a pen, continental your pin on the said to your parents, security questions, and then to may have been statement. if the website, i mean, if it can be a good part of that. but it's most of a good if you like,

lead to on the line system, which is low. i've lived it's purpose. of course now they say it's got a new purpose, which is a bigger general one to contain rush as it did the soviet union with us just taking us back to square one. and we did the new logic to get out of it. but here's the 2nd one, i notice the platinum i put you to use. there's a lot of useful terms in his features, a words like bustles or the silver, and he often appeals to dignity, to honor, to valour. and maybe it's just me, but i'm hearing a lot of stylistic references to king arthur's legends and the quest for the holy grail. and i wonder if you see these historic struggles between russian great britain or russia and the west more broadly. not only as a competition for control or power or access to resources, but also involving something larger perhaps something metaphysical. i definitely

think there's something major physical there. i do think that, you know, there's a lot of studies of political theology like like political psychology. indeed, the ways that the west clings together the political west, which is very my view, anachronistic f o not k. it formed maybe because the political form of a net line took a line system was important against nazi germany. and may be in the early against the soviet union such and it's got no place today, and we should really move beyond that sort of thinking. of course, that's punch in united states who argue the site. so, so i say that in a sense, you're quite a guy within the countries. we can't simply say that emotion is the political west isn't homogenous both, but the offices we've been in the collective and logic, historical west, which are fighting against degrees to have peace movements. we used to have to have union movements, which would be quite active and in questioning this military guys, in a way that international products has militarized. so your guys that we do need

a new agenda, which can, you know, take us back. maybe we do need to go back to the starting point and that is not, not 1999, but 1945. that moment of destiny for the world as well. uh on this uh rather helpful note for sure. so sec, why we have to move in there. thank you very much for being with us today. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope this. here again, was a part of the the, it's amazing what can happen over the course of a few months

a while ago biting was in statics. the deal us with back to frame as long as it takes no, it is as long as we can. what happened, no doubt, the regime and 2 is taken down. the top headlines right now. here we're not a, as it's right, each tried to leave a trail of destruction and got the $200.00 people reportedly killed across the enclave on saturday, including a united nations aid wilka and his family christmas celebrations all across the wes thing have been officially canceled with what is happening in gaza and palestinians here say they do not feel like it's time for the civic taste of how the thing and death goals, hopes, $20.00. that means we report from the west bank with christmas is cancelled in the cold too. and the blood shed in its place. and then i'd surely report by human rights watch dog bureau bad idea of soldiers signed accused of carrying out