the, the russian forces seize control of the bible, city of marine car, located relatively close to the regional capital, other the next to a public renew all explicit report from the ground. let me tell you might in colorado, what's the left to this is some of the worst examples of how sleepy found can be faced to my don scenario will not work in serbia, given the determination of president booth church who's willing to strengthen serbia sovereignty. russia has invested a to the savvy, i said that president bush, it has been the cover and protest movement into block and country is supported by western powers. in that interview with archie, he expresses confidence that

a repeat of kids made in scenario winds was already today. tiny's really at the right arrow top. com, the refugee camp, and central guy that killed the beast. 70 people. according to the policy named red preston society. the devastation forced on the region is unsurpassed. there is no safe place in garza and every palestinian house evacuated already. 4 or 5 times. bom, things are happening everywhere. hospitals, schools, they have destroyed everything. what happens in garza is just on the president. well, those are the headlines of the stories will following these hours will bring you more at the top of the ally next is going on the ground with a focus on the forum follows the disasters of the west. following the end of the pool, the,

[000:00:00;00] the i'm action or time, so you're welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the you a, it's the door one of the multiple, the aramark by decline of us empire image small to in ukraine and gaza. and there's more nations along with rusher and china and opposition to the us dictates and so called rules based on what should we expect? joining me from time to bring the u. k. again, as professor richard software tends universities emeritus professor of russian and european politics, who is just published in the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war. thank you so much because the sacrifices are coming back on. i'm not going to talk so much about what the west is, what a cold war is. i actually maybe i should stop by saying, can you forgive? some read is reading your book,

who see you shot the chains from john to system the rules based or washington rules based thinking. washington must be neutralize, military attacked at all costs, given how we have got here. as that would be, i understand the action because quite clearly the taxi i code of the word i nowadays called the political west since 1999 has not been spectacular except in terms of failure. given the fact that at the beginning 1990, it looked as if there would be a better way of working. remember, the soviet union and united states and other powers joined together to reverse them who science attack on quite, but terms and of kosa in the years and the bulk and conflicts the bombing of serbia, 1999. and so many other incidents, it's quite clear that the west used its enormous preponderance of power in an area sponsible minor. you quote from so many different sources that today we associated with the new cone rights, new liberal, right?

i don't know what time to use who we used surprises one, cuz today they'll say, go for all out, what would china go for war because of russia, but even they were wanting that the expansion of nato would the in the end reduce us power perhaps. yeah, it's important to remember that that's a really nice door to a place called west colette, would you like deliberately international load, or even it's certainly far from homogenous. and it's very important to understand that that is debate even within the system. and of course, a generation of publication. so if the old school only way from has moving target, i know nearby, and of course george can wound against may turn lodgement was an even has been efficiency, said nathan lodge, but we've got an over arching time. you're paying security to older would lead to disaster. now of course, all these warnings have been forgotten. unfortunately, it had warning, so actually come to take place. so, and of course the west,

the doubling down on his positions fairly many in the global southward more and the depth of the big. they have brzezinski or the grand chessboard you quote to me in the book. i mean, saying european states no more than really vassal states with no silver and general practical terms. you suggest him saying, i mean, is that true? now when we look at west in yorba, we turn to west and you are for a 2nd away from the great palace they are. we just see that decline. we have your, your there in britain actually speaking to me. yes, i call them sadly. legacy if a powers and unfortunately the political activity and you know what would say in political science, the agency has been undermined, because quite clearly there's political west and us. the line system has disney empowered germany, france, and so it's a serious powers on the continent. even just to look just before the conflict and

you create an early 2022, we had all a shots, emmanuel mccaul, both going to moscow and in my view, correct, natalie of late trying to avoid the will. and yet, but they could do nothing. could split decisions weren't taken in progress, but they know that they've taken elsewhere, obviously in washington and doing the nature had quoted is so they just to play side testimony despite endless torkas t t, jacob autonomy, west and that the european union itself instead of coming forward with peace proposals, has been the greatest cheerleader for conflict, which is a, you know, something completely repudiating. basically, all you're doing says a piece project. you say one could make the case the britain way. your speaking to being from is just an aircraft carrier for the united states, with all its u. s. military bases. mosque rating is already f ones and all the military troops. but you know that if the present macro could and we invite them appear on this program with us right now, he'd say, what are you talking about?

and you mentioned them kicking out the basis of friendship in the what was it, the 40s or fifties at us basis. and you know, you see the all the, and to us vote to the united nations the, i'm building this to go in with the iraq invasion. and so yes indeed, it was the girl who um, to the base is out to the 1960s. and they took the different ones out from the political, the military of united military command. but of course, it was a side cause a who in the late 20 tends to koreans back in and across, pursued that, you know, vigorously, atlanta says policy. and so the key point to is that contrasting to this atlanta says, and which leads to does in palm into western europe. we know we've been a lot of us have been putting forward. the goal is to ideas, the idea is that, you know, tang, continental unity is there's an idea of the goal. it was an idea of global joseph coast, which when

a lone star perestroika to come and you're paying home. and it was not difficult for me to and, and this to, you know, individually a type of goal is and which says, you know, yup, should take control of its own destiny. and we're talking about your own away from lisbon to reverse talk. and that's the only way in which we can begin to frame some sort of new piece and security older. i suppose you are being 1000 and say, oh, but we all, we just happen to be in support of the us war and rush or through ukraine. it's actually a european war that europe is involved in. i mean, the restaurant was he claims that it intervene after it was clear, the nature of back genocide was occurring in, in going bags or on the cards of to so many people being killed after the made and cool. why is it then that other regions haven't changed as much? the arrow boiled se would gaza? why do other regions don't go to war? the way russia goes towards the project? what it sees?

is it speakers or a community? yeah, i mean, what do you use the word genocide, i think that is used on those sides. uh, perhaps to, to flip unclear too likely because genocide is obviously uh, you know, catastrophic attempt to eliminate people in the game. and i was in the army here in the middle east and his id is being used by important uh, uh, normal line groups is a wide variety of an ethnic population in gaza. obviously, we're certainly seeing a catastrophic attack against the whole people. absolutely. and of course on their different sorts of scale, we had that in um, not just a new thing. we've seen it to the 5 year to incorporate national communities in latvia and just don't you. in the middle east, of course, we've come to the culmination of what is being 70, which is if not far longer, for failure to establish

a framework for different when it has to live together. and when you say, i'm an investor tax. yes, and not to justify or condemn it. it's clearly it was a failure of the year to pay and security older to find it comes to apply. so gosh, i'm better, gosh, i know those in the post cold war framework, which led to a, an intensifying security dynamic which led to the conflict which in which way now in doing, i mean, i don't know how much cold of the, i mean the question there actually was, why is it the, are well, doesn't react the way russia act all we expect china to act when the south china sea becomes the subject of more intervention by nature forces as well the, i mean there is no leading power. china. yes. of course, on nuclear powers in the middle east, where they have a series of contending contending power as well. it is astonishing because is the way that recent events, i really totally changed a, again, political framework,

we've seen already china intervening to achieve some sort of. yeah, push along between gone unsolved. you're going to be a, we're seeing all the state so far off the gulf elsewhere repudiating. you know, not, i mean, not formally yet, the i the codes and the whole thing, work a piece. and i think the off to this contract, and i hope it will come as soon as possible. the whole chessboard has to use judging screws to has been up to and, and we really have to go back to basics us. but when the close, every power has j has filed and we now need both the pen continent and in what we now called southwest asia. how are you thinking of security and holding your framework within the framework of the united nations to might be charged a system as i argue in the, in the book. yeah. what the way should during this only framework we have to achieve some sort of sam good for pace and development. yeah, i mean, obviously there's a lot of doubts about that given how violent

a year it's beam. but then how do you actually for see the nature of the collapse of your european power? i suppose one could say that's already going to an extent, but as the economy's collapse and you expect them to become states of the united states or the public. so west and you're going to rebel, are we going to witness some kind of rebellion by the masses in west and your against valley is you know, i think that's exaggerated. clearly western europe has been marginalized here politically. it has been suffering economically and it's also a crisis of political representation as in terms of effective in terms of the guys of various so called populace movements. we're, we're really seeing the election results and stuff back here not long ago. and of course, i'm very stands fun in his view of that as well as you can war is, was quite clearly avoidable and she does. we must go to some sort of peace framework as soon as possible. but no yoga up is monitoring last the decision

making is in washington. and we have to wait for washington to resolve issues. nicole is, is going to election coming up. and so therefore, you know, there's a whole stack of, you know, 10 lines meeting in 2024. a my view of 2024 is going to be a fundamentally decisive year in southwest southwest asia, in your opinion, politics and the whole time come to the other. paying and atlanta says context, i mean some people, uh, you're going to raised some eyebrows in badging with your mention of human rights in amongst the we goes, people can watch our interview with a week or activist. it's quite to quite eye opening, i'd say, do you think we're going to see the end of a bridge issue or be in union nation united states webinar, ization of human rights to attack these rising powers that you're describing your book as well. i mean, human rights isn't, i mean it's a, it's a fundamental issue if it's and in terms of human dignity and development. and of course,

it has been recognized and i think i'm pulling this doesn't mean to say that the issue, the substantive issue does it parents? and of course, i think everyone at this stage has to start thinking on how to move away from this endless cold war style, militarism which i condemn in the book and suggests that you know that there is a feeling what goods is extraordinary. given the enormous technological, another achievements of our time. and of course, well faced with, uh, you know, the major issue of artificial intelligence coming up on the hood, guys and get a big time which could change social organizations and not for your fund. a mental kind of to, and yet wisdom my, i didn't these endless mean guess it was tragic. so they are. but we need to list our eyes to launch and wider how guys and in which china isn't poetry i doesn't. and then a, i mean who, who got little i started is or a, but we can now excel that, given the visits of the british prime minister in the u. s. president to the me

leave. it is ok to slaughter children based on their ethnicity as a means of self defense that is within the ambridge of human rights, as described by london, washington, and brussels football. and i mean, my view very action is be totally not a good yes style appeal inside has to be within international norms, yet to have put absolutely no effect to pressure on this. you have to stop this loss and, you know, i personally think it's a. yeah, absolutely disgraceful. we can condemn i know i do in the strongest possible terms . the evidence so certainly have must attack on the 7th of october. yet 3rd response is disproportionate. and of course, it's certainly the killing when a one person does to justify the killing of 10 in the response is absolutely unacceptable in my view, within the charts and special system,

as indeed the general secretary of the united nations. antonio gutierrez, i, i gone on a president who said, well, i'll stop you. the more from the author of the new book, the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd. gold will after this, right. the it's amazing. what can happen over the course of a few months,

not long ago buying was in paddick the us with back to craig as long as it takes? no, it is as long as we can. what happened? no doubt, the regime and 2 is taken down. the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the old. there's a new book, the last piece. how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war professor richard software. richard, sorry to have cut you off there in and about one, but uh you were talking of course about garza. so what would you say then, given what you were saying? but obviously, i'm telling you gutierrez, agreed general, going into the middle east events surrounding what happened this year. is that more so than the iraq? afghanistan? libya, syria, ukraine. you guys, uh uh, put the name in the coffin, the video in charge as regards the human rights given as i was saying that it seemed that the major powers were okay with slaughter of children and based on if

history, you know, i can say why you say that, but i think the opposite, it just shows just how important the united nations is. and even it's really for a cause. cost is fundamentally too critical to, to sustaining whatever sort of normal life or food distribution is available. and of course, the united nations has been paralyzed. that hasn't been a security council resolution, but uh, the phases or the base of human rights. and then data international law. doesn't mean to say that international law or united nations should be abandoned. there's nothing, there's no alternative. if we don't to support the international system established in 1945, however poorly it has worked. we have nothing else in its place. and then we cross, we really hit an international energy of it even worse than what we have at the moment. okay. well, if we see in the global, disgusted to have the weaponized ation of human rights, what about the weaponized ation of money transfer?

you to look into the bulk of the end of the swift money transfer system. of course we saw the ukraine conflict lead to a attempt by nature bowers to cut rusher off from international finance. what's your understanding of what we're going to see? quite shortly about that subject. so it's quite clear that the, i'm the big summit into his bud and that's a bit ago. gotcha. india, china. our south africa alignment was talking quite clearly about the emerging sofa tentative payment systems. and of course, the coupling away from the western financial institutions is accelerating. be we've seen the new development bank based in shanghai or the bricks new development bank is becoming an alternative to the breast and would system i m f world bank. so we wouldn't be seeing a mess if the coupling and emergence of to the flea. uh, you know, a quote, powerful alignment. i'm an old coast to be excused and had 6 new members who are

formerly joining in january. so we're witnessing tectonic changes and international politics. this is so many years you're paying said when he visited moscow earlier this year. and it's certainly the case and they're both repeated it on several occasions since then. so we're left away. we're witnessing and living through a time a change of paradigms and change of system that we have not seen before was i system, that's a mistake when witnessing change balance and international politics. we've in the international system established in 1945 and that kind of escaped the attention of us corporate lead is, is we talked about european decline. what do you think of the idea of it's some of your opinion, while european businesses decline and some of them obviously do do embrace. so what you were talking about the united states businesses and we saw the boss of apple in badging. them install. thoughts of rhetoric coming from washington about china, the us corporate power,

which is known all around the world for its power over us politicians learn anything else. actually embracing the new order that you speak of. whilst uh, western europe declines in the united states has bought into this new world order. you a, in a more peaceful world, it will be with this order for your request in europe, in uh, in ruins. a good. yep. so they've got to point out this tire docks is there, united states should never be underestimated and its ability to reinvent itself and because of a normally dynamic economy and society, which obviously puts even more in the shade. the fact that you're paying leaders in fuel to an external pilot to themselves. and of course, a willing to sacrifice the economic interest for what my view was or missed and save vision, an attempt to consolidate the atlantic power system against russia and it's alignment. and the front line obviously has been for many years that you can so

it's, you know, you're absolutely right that i think that the, the economics i'm moving on international play record is moving on and leaving western europe marginalized. or is it a reinvention too far? and we can expect that the united states really does engage in the hot well with, with china as they have, according to roger with rusher over ukraine and they are, will they have a balance then? well, we saw that the electron pin changed well within continued and intensified by bite . and of course we were actually in united states next year. so everything could well, the whole pack of cards could be filled up in the year. and it could full an unexpected impressions. i think as i said, 2024 is good elections and european parliament. it's got to elections in india and other places. so it's a year in which a lot of the patents of the future will finally begin to take shape. i mean,

i know that south africa is the s in brakes, but do you think latin america in africa to and expand a lot, large parts of it have to wait for the death of the dollar before they truly image out of this old order. the close of b is a big deal as well said that i know they know needs to wait. it's the main important and of course and all of this. i just hope that some way can be found to avoid this, you know, finding the apocalyptic conflict, which of course, a lot of people are talking about. and that in some ways they're all wise or heads . and so it's hard to find where in the list and did i did. i said it's probably i would have to be more can you find somebody so you knowing yeah, i know it's very hard to well, i don't know. trump is the favorite to win in 2024 and his views on china right

there. yes. yeah. you know, it's, uh, yeah, i mean, it seems to now, but because one of those worked to him to would be compared to his 1st leadership. because clearly he was working on the endless pressure of investigate with all sorts of other concerns. well, i wonder because, you know, trump is clearly a magic leader. but some of his ideas, for example, it makes sense to get on with russia, with a sense of an idea. and you know, he's pretty good if he'd be leader, we wouldn't be having this will and one to, to the, to, to, to which ultimately he may come to terms with charlie because he was thinking computer in economic terms, my time slot, but can't list terms. but you know, by doing has made it ideology, cool. was to him present transactional leader who knows what, what he may come up with. i mean, clearly there's a power of propaganda or in all these issues if they don't read your book, just briefly,

what do you think of the security of the united states is of the defacto calling, the south korea, japan, the philippines. what happens to these countries as these, this world changes, or yes, you will send an intensification and of the us to line system. certainly with japan saying the guys of china will say no soft clear, which is to learn to maintain a certain distance here. if it was willing to supply shelves to, to, to you can, of course they also have elections in the, at the moment that in a, particularly a phrase which has pro uh, washington very strongly so. but uh, there is a strong movements within soft career. but you know, losing alca space aligns with this julia. i know close on the other side and talk to me in the line sound you a good idea? i know the on both joining the bricks are. shanghai co creation organization may spend. india, of course, plays a very important part in all of this. so we're seeing now global yeah, alignment on the scale we're having to say we haven't seen the realignment heavily

in those countries. i've created japan and the philippines and they're pretty important as i have intensified guidelines for the united states. so they're going to lose in the they can always uh, well, who knows, who knows who, who's gonna waiting at the context, waiting for an epa code context, a 2nd to coldwell, which is far worse. file more intense and will be fine or harder to overcome than the 1st coldwell, i'm afraid was. we looked into that for the next generation also. and how successful do you think? washington control tends to champagne. countries aligned with washington will continue to be. i mean, presumably using not just print media and television, but obviously the internet as well. we've seen the matter of being used in that way . another big tech companies will they successfully stump populations across you as well as those dates are understanding the world. did you write about in this book? so, yeah, yeah, that's another important point is that to

a cold was accompanied by massive communicative wolf or, and cooper band. and they, especially given the fact social media now is being, you know, policed and i'm, i'm good cost as, as you well know, i'd taken off for the, of the a in certain countries. indeed. and of course, this is an intensification of propaganda and informational bullfighter on the other side as well. so this is when they get to introduce a hard time when really we need political dialogue. we need informed debate on all sides is being closed down. well, i think breaks congress is saying they're freeing up their media and not the end doing, doing the opposite. i mean, what happens then as to how say the european union and britain will qual, internal descent as economically these countries. obviously perform was in the budgeting, new global economy, of alliances, and geo, political, uh,

entrepreneurial money exchange to the, in this cold pool, the cycle, the progression is, is quite tough. i'm the closing offer of attentive media channels. and because as you sound the global level of russian r t of course plays and important button, chinese media and indian media to provide that diversity of use which is uh, being limited in some of the hotlines of, of the political west. uh, but yep, i mean it's, it's, i, i see is that uh, especially if things go even worse in southwest asia and garza doing your thing then uh we, we could see some very nasty, unpleasant impression in, in west, in yoga pants, united states. i mean, i'm just thinking about poverty in britain. we know the increasing properties is x a in the country are speaking to me from, i mean, will they just have to be grades or budgets on policing as the economy is

a decline? what at the moment, all, as i say is uh on hold because we've got an election coming up within the next year . uh. and it looks as if uh, you know, the alternative labor policy is in po position. you've seen this in local by elections. but of course, i know i, i think that the united kingdom is suffered from the crisis of bad governance for generations, labor and conservative. and there's a, you know, the, the, the sources of a new is nothing tied a craig, how used to be to a union stretch movement space movements as a political movements. and at the moment, there seems to be a total of stagnation in ideas of how to make a better society. these are more just society and indeed have better govern society, and that's desperately something that we need for resurrection sacrifice. thank you . and that the new book, the last piece, how the west failed to revenge that 2nd go drawers that now that's it for the show . remember we bring you brand new episodes every sunday and monday until then you

can keep in touch by the social media or if it's not sense of deal country and i to a channel going on the run tv on normal. don't come to watch new and old episodes of going underground season. the russian states never is as tight as excellent ending, no sense community best. most all sense and the same assistance must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union,