[000:00:00;00] the, the breaking news here on our, to international south africa take legal action against israel at the un international court of justice in the hey, if jesus is role of violating the genocide convention during the war in gaza. colin's that the russian missile entered it's s phase after flying across the ukranian border. expelled to provide any evidence the support of slaves yet to another us state the bit former president donald trump from running for reelection next. yeah. and along the way to peace is achieved in northern india with an agreement between the government and the separative united liberation

front of those. i made headlines here on our to international. i am a day show, a judge. i'll be back up of the top of the hour for more headlines up next is the whistle blower the we've told you in the past about the us department of veterans affairs. it's an enormous sprawling bureaucracy and is one of the most poorly run departments in the entire us government investigators their deal on a daily basis with things like fraud, embezzlement, drug crimes and other white color issues. but imagine going to work one day and learning that you're not needed to investigate these routine white color crimes. instead, you're needed to investigate a serial killer. and even worse, a medical serial killer assessed you a pass who works under color of helping patients as a medical professional, a doctor or

a nurse. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 our next guest is that rare person who has seen the darkest part of the underbelly of society. bruce sacrament is a renowned investigator specializing in tracking down medical serial killers and is in demand as a consultant on the subject all over the world. he's a former special agent in charge of the ne field office of the criminal investigations division in the us department of veterans affairs office of the inspector general, where he was responsible for criminal investigations in 295 veterans affairs facilities. he's a licensed private investigator and is the president of the society of professional investigators. in addition to his professional credentials. he's the co author of the highly acclaimed book behind the murder curtain, special agent,

bruce sacrament, hans doctors and nurses who kill our veterans, bruce sacrament. welcome to the show. we are so happy to have you. ok, thank you very much. i'm actually honored to be here today while the pleasures online. i've been looking forward to this for a long time. i have to tell you this conversation is, is going to be fascinating for me personally. there are probably fewer than a dozen people in the united states who have had a career focused on serial killers and even fewer who have focused on medical serial killers. before we get to that specialization, tell us a little bit about your career and about how you got started in investigations. sure, well, um, i started investigations probably by watching too many colombo. now, i'm not seeing a big, tough, dirty harry kind of guy. but i used to watch columbia and i so you know,

i could do that. this guy is more brains than braun and i really like that. so i started out as an investigator with the u. s. department of defense and i was investigating contract for roland and procurement for a line. and it was pretty interesting. and then jimmy carter way back when began offices of inspector general's in every federal agency. so every page of federal agency that time. and now just about every agency has an office of inspector general, and most offices of inspector general, all kind of torn to different directions. one is in the office of what it and one is an office of criminal investigations. i was responsible for the office of criminal investigations for the ne united states. and i had a tremendous smorgasbord if you will, of cases, to pick and choose from. because hospitals well hospitalized big cities and any kind of crime that could occur in

a big city could almost kind of happened in the hospital. you know, we had procurement for or contract for what we had drug diversion. think of all the narcotics that are in the hospital. i mean we have the most complex scientific equipment to inexpensive items like diapers and everything in between. and we have with very, very concerned about medical records about the security and medical records. so running the hospital is a very, very complex job and unfortunately there is a big opportunity for some criminal activity. now with the v a, i must preface my remarks by saying that the old will well bring majority of the am for the most honest hard working, dedicated compassionate people you ever want to meet? absolutely, yes, no, that being said, there is a very,

very tiny percentage of people that will take advantage of the system. and unfortunately they are victims on nations few roads. and that's really so i was really on it in 2 respects. i was on it to be in federal law enforcement. and i was honored to have a position that worked out for veterans that actually helped us secure safety and security and the best health possible for our nation's heroes. it was a wonderful, wonderful position to be. and you had a long career at the department of veterans affairs. tell us about the case that made you an expert on medical serial killers. i have to assume that somebody doesn't just wake up one day and decide to start killing people. they operate on detected sometimes for many years and we're talking about doctors and nurses here.

how did this all begin in that big case? well, you know, i'm working all these other cases that i just described. and all in one day, my phone rings, and i get a call from the chief of psychiatry at the northwood long island, b a medical center. and she says, bruce, oh, you're not gonna believe this. but we have a doctor working here who spent time in prison for poisoning his coworkers. and i'm looking at the phone and i'm from looking at my calendar as is this april 1st is this like some kind of april fools, a joke or something. you know, and she says, no booze, this is really true. now what? i didn't think in the united states of america, you could spend time in prison for poisoning people and come out and be a physician. so i was wrong and natural, it started the story of a dr. michael swain though, you know, to michel schmilo, killed people,

not only united states. he told people the world, do you know when he was in medical school, john, when he was in medical school, he was known as double swine. go license, the kill all, my gosh. twice fellow students in medical school and then to the dean. and they said, you know, the, we don't think these guys window should really be a physician. and the dean said, what do you know you only students on the dean. i think he could be a doctor, but i think he needs more training. so let's keep him for about 6 months longer. right. and the next thing, you know, he winds up in ohio state university and he's killing people. and he winds up being in m e n t, and he actually boys in his co workers invited his co workers and he says, hey guys, you know, you work so hard, have some donuts in the donuts and they all got sick that night. and he calls them up, he says, tell me,

will you symptoms tell me everything that happens. he's really the excitement of poisoning people, not only when he actually put the boys in on these donuts, but hearing how they suffered. mm hm. and it turns out that the donuts were actually sprinkled with loss and made it easy. and these are not stupid. about 2 weeks later it comes in with some ice tea and they have the ice t test it and it's loaded with awesome. wow. and the police be the fantastic job and he gets 3 years in jail for boys and his co. ready workers and then he comes out and he's a doctor again. it to be a lot. it seems impossible. how can anybody pass a government background investigation and have your license? yeah. and have your license reinstated? yes. well i'll tell you this, this guy. it's an incredible sociopath, you know,

he was, he wasn't excellent reading the guy out of prison. and he gave the store, he says, you know, i'm an ex marine, i got a fine, i got an a bottle in the roll. but here's a piece of paper from the governor, restoring my civil rights. nobody checked it, nobody verified it. and the next thing, you know, the guy is a doctor again, this time out in the west coast. and it'd be a facility and he's doing well. he's actually engage to be a nurse. and then the story comes out and uh, everything turns terrible for him and his fiance and his fiance, her name was kristen kenny does a beautiful, beautiful young lady. and she goes home to mom and she says, you know, mom, i really look this guy swining go, but i can't live with them anymore after i heard what happened. you know, but when i was living with him, i was getting all these headaches for some reason, headaches. but i, i feel better now. and the next thing you know,

swipe boat shows up at the door and he sold tom and the chimes is way back into hawaii. and about 2 months later, she can't take it anymore again and she goes to the park. she takes out a gun and she blows her brains out. all my complaint can i go for that? can you will actually you can because even though she shot her sale and the family had the body cremated, they kept a lock of hair. and her head was loaded with austin. no manga was even poisoning his own fiancee. lo, to make a long story short, he actually lot winds up in my neighborhood at the northwood long island, b a medical center. and you know, something interesting. he was there on a residency and a guess what, what particular medical field in psychiatry that he had to go in front of

a board of trying psychiatry. and can you this each and every one of them that he should be in the program. and he's the incredible and the that's when i got that phone cool. sort of each i lived so, and i happened to call with one of my agents and i go down and visit him. now let me tell you this guy look like a movie. saw just got off the golf course. we're on these ada saw sunglasses, you know, cells in john, if i didn't know better, i want to introduce them to my own daughter. yeah. right. he's the next marine doctor. right. you know, spending on nation zeros, i'd say come on and i says when i go join the family. wow. if i didn't know that well. so he's given me the same bottom drawer story, you know, and then when i saw it challenging him, he's not so charming. he doesn't want to talk in the next thing. you know, he leaves the country where he's the country. he goes to zimbabwe africa when he's

in play africa because it's such a shortage of physicians. there. he's killing women and children and pregnant women, my god. and they have an arrest warrant, say him, but he returns the united states because he had to renew his passport. this boy went on yet to another country and we arrested him, but not for murder because we didn't have any evidence that he murdered anybody at all. here we were sent him, but every several ages, they re crime line to the government. he said lie or it's of the government. if you want to a federal agent. you weren't guilty of sending one. that's right. and 3 years in jail, full line to the government. so that gave us a window of opportunity, a window of 3 years. the trying to prove that he murdered any of our nation's heroes at the north port va medical center. and that's what started me on,

on that particular journey. let me ask you to why is it so difficult to think for medical professionals to be able to spot a colleague who, who can kill in a hospital environment. medical professionals, of course, are supposed to 1st do no harm, is it, is that it, that they're supposed to be hillers, and not killers. so people generally don't suspect their colleagues of these terrible crimes. it will look if you are so inclined to commit a number is what profession and what location might you choose? right? tape? you might choose a profession that kind of gives you the legal power of life and death over an individual and what professions do we know have that? you know, you, you might want to take a profession where people take, you know, have dedicated themselves to saving lives. so who is going to believe that in this

wonderful universe of compassionate people who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, these going to be someone hiding in that group that's actually taking lives? it's almost impossible to believe. i mean, all your coworkers have dedicated themselves to saving people. you see, miracles performed almost every day in the hospital and to believe that somebody is intentionally murdering people. is very, very difficult. you know, it's very difficult for the fireman to believe that one of his cold work is, is actually starting fine. that's right, right. it's the same thing here. it's a universe of such dedicated professional people that no one wants to bully. one of their co workers would be intentionally taking lots and i can understand that i could say we are speaking with an investigator in author, bruce segment about his investigations into medical serial killers. we have to take a short break,

but you're not going to want to miss the 2nd half of this conversation. stay tuned . we'll be right back. 2 the, [000:00:00;00]

the the calendar is change, but the trends we observe last year continue with this, getting to the new year. change is in the air and the powers that be in politics and media are resisting. the status quote was being tested. this is what could make 2020 for a water ship here. welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we are speaking with renowned investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his work tracking down medical serial killers, those medical professionals who become stealth murderers. welcome back again, bruce. glad to have you. thank you. a booster. tell us a little bit about motivation, the, the average serial killer when when one thinks about john wayne gacy or gary allan ridge way or dentist reader is associated path or a psycho path becomes more and more bold,

often even taunting the police. but that's not the case with medical serial killers, visit. tell us about their motivation. what leads them to do it? you know, i'll tell you what i've seen over the years. um, not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but this is when i put in this, i would say the number one. the number one reason that i've seen is something called munchausen syndrome by proxy right now, much alvin central and black proxy is, is often displayed when a mother will maybe intentionally harm a child and bring that child into the hospital. show the staff what a caring, dedicated, outstanding parent they are and is trying to be so compassionate, please help my child and they want the staff to give them understanding and compassion. well in some strange way. this is the same thing with medical c,

o kills. you think about medical serial killers when you look at their evaluations, like ok, nurses, ok, doctors. except when it comes to code and a cold, i mean an emergency, a cold blow. and when you read the evaluations, you will see that big in an outstanding when it comes to code one of my medical serial killers. kristin gilbert, the doctors would say, you know, if i ever cody, i would one kristin deal with there. she starts blocking, or is it the young been trying to get out of her mind? she case control. she's a hero. she's outstanding. why? this is one of these people want because to well feel like they will kind of put aside and they need get the attention that they. ready want to do when they're who can sit, there was considered more zeros and heroes. now, son and this is an opportunity for them to get the attention that they never had

before. and now they don't care about the victims. it's just an end to the means. they care about the attention that comes to them and that i've seen throughout the world is perhaps the number one reason. it's not exclusively, some people likes wind. oh, i just loved the power of life and death. nasa your power and then over the summer, what incredible high for him. you know, wanting incredible turn on that he could act like on that he had the power of life and death and, and that's also calm. but there are a few other reasons. sometimes is a case on going in texas. now we're a doctor is just pissed off at management and his co workers and he says, you know, i'm the best doctor here. he's or they can even compare it to me and you know what they did to me. they took away some of my privileges, they reduced my office, they cut my money back, i'll show them how so them when patients started going unexpectedly,

then oh realize how important are you and they will come back to me. my gosh, pretty of the priest. yeah, those are some of the most common reason that i've seen throughout the world back this is be able to welcome 2 or 3 years ago. i entertain the idea of writing a book about serial killers. i've written 8 non fish non fiction books. i thought it would be kind of a fun departure, and i especially wanted to talk about their motivation and what made them so bold before they were finally caught. so i wrote letters to 8 or 9 serial killers who were in prison, including some of the most famous names, many of them, including gary alan ridgeway the green river killer, the b t k killer son of sam tex watson from the manson family. they actually answered me, but their answers were all the same. they said they found jesus in prison,

jesus had forgiven them. jesus was, was saving their lives, they were living their lives for jesus, etc, etc. ridgeway even sent me. it was a big package. it had 50 religious pamphlets in it, and he asked me to distribute these pamphlets around my neighborhood. so of course i true, i threw them away. but my image, your conclusion was that, that there are manipulative behavior continues in prison all these years later that, that this manipulative personality is what keeps them going. they think it's going to get them something to, at least profess to be christian, for example. so my question is, is that also common among serial killers once they've been caught? and if it is, how are they able to, to cover it up for so long as they build their medical careers? well, i guess it sort of a 2 point questions. the 1st bar evolving. oh, once,

once they are incarcerated. well, many of them will decline to speed because there are additional murders out there. god. right. and they tried and convicted and even received the death penalty, depending on wherever it occurred. so they're not going to do anything else, right? because when we suspect these medical serial killers are killing 36, the a 100 people often we don't have the proof on hand that they killed that many people cry. you know, we have narrow it down to the very, very best cases that there are and pursue those cases. but they know they know there are other victims out there. and we should be able to prove yet another bit them, especially with some believe that they gave us, they could be retry, prosecuted and possibly even executed. so they're not going to say anything at all

about that. all right, and you know it's something interesting because when the whistle blow is in the case of chris and gilbert, this is a real example of whistle blowers fan, had floyd backgrounds and you know, some of them had a substance abuse problems. they had other personal problems and they knew this was gonna all come out. but they had incredible coverage to come for us and tell us what had happened. well, what do you think happened after the trial? so kristin gilbert, who were your legs killed about 30 or by nations heroes at north hampton b, a medical center in massachusetts? she goes to trial and she's found guilty and the whistle blows with just tremendous . we wouldn't know that it wasn't for the missiles. so when they return to work, do you think that the agree it is he will say, oh no. just the opposite. uh,

just the opposite because you'd say what the heck the you do the us. now when people drive by the hospital, they don't say, call this the hospital, let's say if my dad, that's the hospital, it does wonderful science. know basic, that's the hospital with the medical serial killer work. now why did you have to do that? you won't be for all of us, you room, the reputation, not. thank you for getting rid of the murder that they never, ever. all they heard was criticism from the a coworkers. why did you call these 50 general? why did you believe bring the police in here? why did you bring all of his bad publicity to us while genetically triple bruce tell us where people can learn more about the work that you do and about your book? for sure. well, the website is the same as the name of the work behind the murder cars dot com. it

details all the stories of medical serial killers inside the v a that i personally investigated, including doctors wango and kristin gilbert and others, including a, a physician in albany that old and medical records to put the veterans into research studies. they should have never been ended and they were murdered. i mean, they're really some incredible stories in that book. and also, you know, there's a, there's a television show out there. cool. um, what's it called very scary people. yes, thank you very scary. p h l n, and it has 2 hours on swine go. yes, but i like to find people to um, to read the book, to go to the website, to e mail me. i get emails all the time from veterans and non veterans and people who have been victimized by this. and, you know, and so one thing we have to mention here is a whole human side to this john,

you know, we talk about the statistics in the message, but these are human opinions we're talking about for the family search our show. so could you imagine, do i mean if i, if i rang your doorbell one day and i said, excuse me, sir, you know, my name is bruce saffron. and i'm from new v a. and we have reason to believe that your father's death was of a suspicious nature. can i go to the cemetery and dw body runs? yes. and can you imagine your visit like that? could you imagine sitting in a court room and the ceiling? all this evidence of how your father was murdered and a v a hospital asked that he spent his entire life. yeah, same thing with america, registering military to the movie the hassle. imagine the human side is, is how you would feel. and sometimes when we talk about this to 6, how many mirrors and the techniques and all that, we forget to mention the human side of the families and the families have always

been just amazing for me. just fantastic people. fantastic. well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. this was fascinating and we were very happy to have you. so i want to thank bruce for joining us and for sharing his fast ending experiences. and thanks to our viewers for watching the author, bret easton, ellis, one said, quote, it strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cool place on quote. in many cases, i'm sorry to say that's true, but we're fortunate to have people like bruce hackman out there doing the right thing. i'm john kerry echo, thanks for watching the whistle blowers until next time.

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